Newsstands and Direct Editions (finally) get a video explainer... Version 1.2 8 8

[ADAMANTIUM]

In short.

What WAS notated by cgc were "price newsstand editions" and some newsstand editions as an exception, but when now every "regular newsstand" is an "edition." It is a bit convoluted and kind of spoils any nuance. Edit to say, unless we are thinking there is no such thing as a "regular newsstand" from the beginning?

In that the direct "editions" word is now being added to the term on the newsstand? 

 The question of, "why is it a newsstand?" Will be here for quite some time.

Not to complicate things, because it is already complicated

Edited July 19, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[valiantman]

On 7/18/2023 at 7:54 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

In short.

What WAS notated by cgc were "price newsstand editions" and some newsstand editions as an exception, but when now every "regular newsstand" is an "edition." It is a bit convoluted and kind of spoils any nuance. Edit to say, unless we are thinking there is no such thing as a "regular newsstand" from the beginning?

In that the direct "editions" word is now being added to the term on the newsstand? 

 The question of, "why is it a newsstand?" Will be here for quite some time.

Not to complicate things, because it is already complicated

The "method" is the source of the madness. Newsstand books were returnable, so the "method" was that they went on sale, sat for a while (maybe two or three months) to potentially get damaged, and then they were (supposed to be) returned and destroyed/recycled/pulped, whatever.

The "method" for direct edition was that they were printed with some different marking to indicate that they weren't returnable, sat as long as needed in comic shops because they couldn't be returned, and if they didn't sell they stayed in comic shops for decades. Some direct editions were printed to be sold in multipacks, but they were not returnable either, so if the multipacks didn't sell, they're still sitting in deteriorating plastic somewhere, or they were ripped out and added to comic shop back issues.

Whether there was a price difference is not important to me. CGC noted it because it was an obvious difference, different price is like a different product... but the "method" was always different for direct editions and there has always been a way to know which is which.

High grade "multipack only" direct editions might be tough books, so it's not all about the newsstand method... they sat in cheap plastic, they were supposed to be hanging on hooks in stores, they could be handled by "casual shoppers" and not serious collectors, etc.

For the period of time prior to the direct market, newsstand books were living two lives. Some were going through all the trials and tribulations of sitting in grocery stores and casual shopper handling, while others were happily sitting in comic shops waiting for a serious collector and his protective handling. It's the rollout of direct editions to comic shops which started the life of direct editions but it also split the life of newsstands. They became almost exclusively handled by casual shoppers, and even though they are the most common version of book printed in the early days of the direct market, they never lived the lives of luxury that direct market books had from day one.

Edited July 19, 2023 by valiantman

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 7/19/2023 at 2:54 PM, valiantman said:

The "method" is the source of the madness. Newsstand books were returnable, so the "method" was that they went on sale, sat for a while (maybe two or three months) to potentially get damaged, and then they were (supposed to be) returned and destroyed/recycled/pulped, whatever.

The "method" for direct edition was that they were printed with some different marking to indicate that they weren't returnable, sat as long as needed in comic shops because they couldn't be returned, and if they didn't sell they stayed in comic shops for decades. Some direct editions were printed to be sold in multipacks, but they were not returnable either, so if the multipacks didn't sell, they're still sitting in deteriorating plastic somewhere, or they were ripped out and added to comic shop back issues.

Whether there was a price difference is not important to me. CGC noted it because it was an obvious difference, different price is like a different product... but the "method" was always different for direct editions and there has always been a way to know which is which.

High grade "multipack only" direct editions might be tough books, so it's not all about the newsstand method... they sat in cheap plastic, they were supposed to be hanging on hooks in stores, they could be handled by "casual shoppers" and not serious collectors, etc.

For the period of time prior to the direct market, newsstand books were living two lives. Some were going through all the trials and tribulations of sitting in grocery stores and casual shopper handling, while others were happily sitting in comic shops waiting for a serious collector and his protective handling. It's the rollout of direct editions to comic shops which started the life of direct editions but it also split the life of newsstands. They became almost exclusively handled by casual shoppers, and even though they are the most common version of book printed in the early days of the direct market, they never lived the lives of luxury that direct market books had from day one.

Anyway I'll just wait to see the final tally, me interjecting will only exacerbate any collective thought or understanding as I'm not as informed. Yall were doing well 

Edited July 19, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[MAR1979]

from what i see in threads on this forum as recently as today is folks are getting back books in their submissions that should be noted as newsstands but are not. This means the numbers are wrong makings newsstands from the 80s falsely appear to be rare. The lack of QC favors scamming sellers.

BTW i never sought newsstands but reviewing my inventory spreadsheet last night have found majority of my 2000-2006 slab purchases from auctions were newsstands. Makes me think prior to scammy sellers hyping them is they were at least some degree of plentiful. 

Please note the books in question in my collection range only from 1979-1986

Edited July 21, 2023 by MAR1979

[valiantman]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:32 AM, MAR1979 said:

from what i see in threads on this forum as recently as today is folks are getting back books in their submissions that should be noted as newsstands but are not. This means the numbers are wrong makings newsstands from the 80s falsely appear to be rare. The lack of QC favors scamming sellers.

BTW i never sought newsstands but reviewing my inventory spreadsheet last night have found majority of my 2000-2006 slab purchases from auctions were newsstands. Makes me think prior to scammy sellers hyping them is they were at least some degree of plentiful. 

Please note the books in question in my collection range only from 1979-1986

Sellers hyping things will not be able to change the reality of newsstand percentages.

Despite "newsstand" being a selling point (and supposed reason for premium pricing), half of all CGC 9.8 Amazing Spider-Man #252 sold in the past year are newsstand, and more than half of CGC 9.6, 9.4, 9.2, and 9.0.

Books that are harder to find in newsstand will command a premium, and those which aren't won't. The market is efficient in the long term, regardless of how many hype monsters are included.

In other words, "newsstands" which aren't worth a premium in the long run will end up exactly like every single variant that has come out for the past 20 years that was hyped as "the next greatest thing ever" and wasn't worth a premium in the long run. 

If books don't deserve a premium, 99.9% of them won't have one.

Edited July 21, 2023 by valiantman

[Lazyboy]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:32 AM, MAR1979 said:

from what i see in threads on this forum as recently as today is folks are getting back books in their submissions that should be noted as newsstands but are not.

No kidding. CGC has recognized Canadian Newsstands (regardless of whatever poor terminology they've used) since they opened (or close enough), but around half the slabs in this decade-old thread aren't properly labeled.

On 7/21/2023 at 7:32 AM, MAR1979 said:

This means the numbers are wrong makings newsstands from the 80s falsely appear to be rare.

What numbers? The CGC Census does not yet reflect the full recognition of Newsstands that CGC finally implemented. We already know that the previous arbitrarily-recognized Newsstands have poor numbers because they weren't recognized until well after the first submissions.

 

[Microchip]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:31 AM, valiantman said:

Sellers hyping things will not be able to change the reality of newsstand percentages.

Despite "newsstand" being a selling point (and supposed reason for premium pricing), half of all CGC 9.8 Amazing Spider-Man #252 sold in the past year are newsstand, and more than half of CGC 9.6, 9.4, 9.2, and 9.0.

Books that are harder to find in newsstand will command a premium, and those which aren't won't. The market is efficient in the long term, regardless of how many hype monsters are included.

In other words, "newsstands" which aren't worth a premium in the long run will end up exactly like every single variant that has come out for the past 20 years that was hyped as "the next greatest thing ever" and wasn't worth a premium in the long run. 

If books don't deserve a premium, 99.9% of them won't have one.

Well remarked.

There obvious market forces are there for all to see, have been in-play in the market for some time now.

 

[Stefan_W]

On 7/21/2023 at 11:31 AM, valiantman said:

Sellers hyping things will not be able to change the reality of newsstand percentages.

Despite "newsstand" being a selling point (and supposed reason for premium pricing), half of all CGC 9.8 Amazing Spider-Man #252 sold in the past year are newsstand, and more than half of CGC 9.6, 9.4, 9.2, and 9.0.

Books that are harder to find in newsstand will command a premium, and those which aren't won't. The market is efficient in the long term, regardless of how many hype monsters are included.

In other words, "newsstands" which aren't worth a premium in the long run will end up exactly like every single variant that has come out for the past 20 years that was hyped as "the next greatest thing ever" and wasn't worth a premium in the long run. 

If books don't deserve a premium, 99.9% of them won't have one.

This is all true. The one additional thing with newsstands though is a given the way they were initially sold it is often tougher to find them in high grade. I can only speak from personal experience and mileage may vary, but I have found that newsstand only really matters for key books and only if they are in high grade. Once you drop out of the 9 range people who are into these books stop caring (which I define as "willing to pay a bit more for them"), and the sound of crickets chirping is often deafening if you try to charge a bit extra for newsstand run fillers.  

[valiantman]

On 7/22/2023 at 3:18 PM, Stefan_W said:

This is all true. The one additional thing with newsstands though is a given the way they were initially sold it is often tougher to find them in high grade. I can only speak from personal experience and mileage may vary, but I have found that newsstand only really matters for key books and only if they are in high grade. Once you drop out of the 9 range people who are into these books stop caring (which I define as "willing to pay a bit more for them"), and the sound of crickets chirping is often deafening if you try to charge a bit extra for newsstand run fillers.  

That's true, and it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Many collectors do not care about whether a book is direct edition or newsstand as long as they have a copy. When it comes to CGC grading, there are many collectors who own very few, if any, CGC graded comics.

As a result, you have a spectrum of collectors that --- on one side --- don't care about which edition they own, don't care about CGC grading, and probably aren't caught up in NM- vs. NM vs. NM+ vs. NM/MT differentiation on their raw books.  At the other end of that spectrum, you'll find collectors who only want the "toughest to find" edition, in the highest grade, already CGC'd. 

It's logical that highest grade CGC newsstand books have buyers, and it's logical that "don't care about CGC", "don't care about newsstand" books have buyers (or they at least have a very stable market without surprises). It would be very strange for someone to care enough about whether they're buying newsstand or direct edition to pay a premium, but not care about the condition or CGC grading. As a result, CGC graded, but not high grade, newsstands are a product without a logical group of buyers.  Who's in the middle and is that group in the middle enough to match the supply in the middle?  Seems like there is a gap there without enough buyers.

[ADAMANTIUM]

 I was going to push it for the future of that "middle ground", but only because it is probably "where I'm at as well!"

I just like to find stuff in the wild, recently got back a "price newsstand edition" in 7.0  I bought it raw for $2.

I'd just assume to be content not throwing it away, no dog in a fight. Been a bottom feeder in areas for years now!

Edited July 23, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Pantodude]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:10 PM, valiantman said:

It would be very strange for someone to care enough about whether they're buying newsstand or direct edition to pay a premium, but not care about the condition or CGC grading. As a result, CGC graded, but not high grade, newsstands are a product without a logical group of buyers. 

Hi there.  Maybe you qualified this statement earlier in the thread, and if so, disregard.  But this comment as is appears to be demonstrably incorrect, at least for the later-years newwstands comprising a tiny % of the print run.  The logical analog for this group of buyers of  (i.e., the group that recognizes and prioritizes a rarer version of an issue) would be the price variant collectors who have been paying premiums for decades now, like for the 35-cent price variants of Star Wars 1, Iron Fist 14, etc.  Because there are only 312 SW1 35c in all grades (compared to 15928(!) for the regular version) and 78 IF14 35c in all grades (compared to 6301 for the regular version), there is no question there is a logical (and passionate) group of buyers for even low grades of these variants.  And this is reflected in sales of CGC graded non-high grade books.  A regular SW1 in 3.5 fetched $104 in May after a SW1 35c in 3.5 fetched $4,500 in April (a 45x premium!).  Need to go farther back for Iron Fist 14 due to few sales, but in 2019, a regular IF14 fetched about $200 recently while an IF14 35c in 4.5 fetched $2,300 back in 2019 (so it's likely gone up since then).  

Based on the above, one could expect newsstands from the period during which they were a tiny % of the print run, like 2000s, for example, to enjoy the same (in terms of extreme) premiums across all grades.  I've only looked at Ultimate Fallout 4, a modern book published as late as 2011, and it was as expected. Even in grade 5.0, it fetches about $3K as a newsstand compared to $300 for the direct, at 10x premium!  That's all i got.  Happy Sunday!   

Edited July 23, 2023 by Pantodude

[valiantman]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:50 AM, Pantodude said:

Hi there.  Maybe you qualified this statement earlier in the thread, and if so, disregard.  But this comment as is appears to be demonstrably incorrect, at least for the later-years newwstands comprising a tiny % of the print run.  The logical analog for this group of buyers of  (i.e., the group that recognizes and prioritizes a rarer version of an issue) would be the price variant collectors who have been paying premiums for decades now, like for the 35-cent price variants of Star Wars 1, Iron Fist 14, etc.  Because there are only 312 SW1 35c in all grades (compared to 15928(!) for the regular version) and 78 IF14 35c in all grades (compared to 6301 for the regular version), there is no question there is a logical (and passionate) group of buyers for even low grades of these variants.  And this is reflected in sales of CGC graded non-high grade books.  A regular SW1 in 3.5 fetched $104 in May after a SW1 35c in 3.5 fetched $4,500 in April (a 45x premium!).  Need to go farther back for Iron Fist 14 due to few sales, but in 2019, a regular IF14 fetched about $200 recently while an IF14 35c in 4.5 fetched $2,300 back in 2019 (so it's likely gone up since then).  

Based on the above, one could expect newsstands from the period during which they were a tiny % of the print run, like 2000s, for example, to enjoy the same (in terms of extreme) premiums across all grades.  I've only looked at Ultimate Fallout 4, a modern book published as late as 2011, and it was as expected. Even in grade 5.0, it fetches about $3K as a newsstand compared to $300 for the direct, at 10x premium!  That's all i got.  Happy Sunday!   

I was replying to a comment that Stefan_W made "Once you drop out of the 9 range people who are into these books stop caring (which I define as "willing to pay a bit more for them"), and the sound of crickets chirping is often deafening if you try to charge a bit extra for newsstand run fillers."

My interpretation of his comment was for common 1980s and probably early 1990s newsstand "filler" (non-key) books, which are numerous. I don't think we'll see anything like 2% newsstand for those (more like 20% or more), so it's not a good analog to 35 cent variants or any of the lowest % newsstands at the end of the 2000s.

[CGC Mike]

I have cleaned up this thread some.  I highly recommend to agree to disagree.  Otherwise, I will use the ban from topic, the point system or both.  

[Aman619]

The big difference between the 30 and 35 cent price variants and the post direct market newsstands is quantity and intention.  The 30 and 35 centers were a limited distributed test run.  The numbers are finite, and being locally distributed in just a few markets are much scarcer that the later newsstands being discussed here.  Until we pin down exactly what the print runs %s for direct vs newsstand, and in each year post 1979, we will remain in this guessing game of exactly which are scarcer and scarcest.   That is clearly beginning to happen now.  Let’s see where this goes and then we will have a clearer picture of the harder to find (and in grade) of the newsstands.  And of the early direct copies, too.  And if it turns out to be a “thing” collectors will enjoy chasing.  Cause it won’t be a small finite set like the 30 and 35 centers, which I don’t collect, but CAN understand as a worthwhile achievement. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Aman619

[valiantman]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:23 PM, Aman619 said:

Until we pin down exactly what the print runs %s for direct vs newsstand, and in each year post 1979, we will remain in this guessing game of exactly which are scarcer and scarcest.   That is clearly beginning to happen now.  Let’s see where this goes and then we will have a clearer picture of the harder to find (and in grade) of the newsstands.  And the early direct copies.

I doubt if we'll see "exactly" anything, but we should get a consistent "range" of percentages over time. Amazing Spider-Man #300 (1988) has been tracked for several years and it tends to produce similar results each time it is measured.

GPA has recorded 2,910 sales when there are only 21,000 on the CGC Census at CGC 9.0 or higher. Even with some duplicate sales (same slab sold twice or more in 3 years) this is a significant sample.

[Microchip]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:23 AM, Aman619 said:

 Let’s see where this goes and then we will have a clearer picture of the harder to find (and in grade) of the newsstands.  And of the early direct copies, too.  And if it turns out to be a “thing” collectors will enjoy chasing.  Cause it won’t be a small finite set like the 30 and 35 centers, which I don’t collect, but CAN understand as a worthwhile achievement. 

This is aspect not covered well so far.   Everyone is focussed on absolute numbers of newsstands out there.    But the grades of newsstand books out there for the modern era is starting to look like SA grade profiles, far more than MA.   

With the CPV's we see the heavily hoarded key books of that time with dozens of high grade copies.    For the modern newsstands, there's been lack of event books.   And if there were, people got their copies at the LCS where they could order them as they wished.    Newsstands were simply not on the radar.

[valiantman]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:32 PM, Microchip said:

And if there were, people got their copies at the LCS where they could order them as they wished.    Newsstands were simply not on the radar.

I think it's safe to say that any books which went to a second printing were probably hoarded as newsstands with ASM #361-#363 coming to mind immediately.

[Aman619]

… and every now and then a book was Instantly so hit that LCSs chased down and bought newsstand copies to meet the demand in their direct only stores.  These would be sold with no regard to the UPC code, just on a gotta have a copy basis. Assuming these were gathered early on at newsstands  Whore wear and tear set in, they would be 9.8 candidates to this day having been being handled carefully same as these direct buyers treated their direct copies then

 

edit fix:  "whore wear" was "before wear" when I typed it.  honest!

Edited July 24, 2023 by Aman619

[Microchip]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:49 AM, Aman619 said:

… and every now and then a book was Instantly so hit that LCSs chased down and bought newsstand copies to meet the demand in their direct only stores.  These would be sold with no regard to the UPC code, just on a gotta have a copy basis. Assuming these were gathered early on at newsstands  Whore wear and tear set in, they would be 9.8 candidates to this day having been being handled carefully same as these direct buyers treated their direct copies then

For all other slow burner keys, newsstand copies will be like hen's teeth.  

 

[Aman619]

probably!  the longer they sat in the racks or whatever the worse shape they end up in.  Then again, weren't collectors without direct sales LCSs not ALSO showing up every week -- the day they came out -- and therefore picking up "pretty" fresh copies?  They might be lightly damaged from loose handling into and out of the racks, but they didnt sit in the store for the full 3 months with purchases made toward the collection deadline.  

This was the 80s... Not like the 60s.  I went to an out of the way drugstore in the mid 60s with a spinner rack filled with misbegotten orphaned unsold comics. But being hungry for something to buy, I searched every pocket.  Pulled out an FF #2!  It was years old by then...  By the 80s very few outlets selling comics let then sit around that long. Or did they?