Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2023 at 6:14 AM, Steven Valdez said:

X-Men got cancelled because of that... despite featuring some of the most incredible superhero illustration of all time by Neal Adams. The books were being pilfered by the truckload, making it seem that official sales were poor.

Yep. 3 issues later they began bi-monthly reprints in the book, leading to eventual cancellation.

So by Stan Lee fan Kirby logic, those Neal Adams issues didn't sell and must've been really bad, right? 

[jimjum12]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:36 AM, Prince Namor said:

Stan Lee without Kirby or Ditko was no longer anywhere NEAR that conversation. He had NOTHING.

Personally, Atlas produced some of my favorite comics ever made. They didn't have much in the way of chaps running around with their panties on the outside of their breeches, but even in the 50's there was a market for those who wanted something more sophisticated ... all done without Kirby or Ditko. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

... and for those who felt Roy Thomas had no talent, maybe those Avengers were over their head... all those multi-syllable words to swallow. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:22 PM, jimjum12 said:

Yeah, right ... it was making money and yet they cancelled it. Keep drinking that Kool-aid. GOD BLESS... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

With rampant affidavit fraud it was NOT making money... except for the sleazo dealers buying them off the back of distributor trucks for a fraction of cover price.

[Zonker]

On 9/19/2023 at 3:04 AM, shadroch said:

 

I challenge anyone to read the first six issues of Jimmy Olsen that Kirby did and not shake their head.   

 

 

Well, 14-year-old me thought those 6 issues were incredible when I found taped-up back issue copies in a local used book store in the late 1970s.  They were revisited during the post-Crisis Byrne-era Superman reboot, and also formed the basis for an extended storyline in the Justice League Unlimited animated show.  I do think you're correct though that Kirby was throwing out ideas so fast that he missed the chance to follow through on many of them.  Stan wasn't there to help steer those ideas into multi-part storylines (or as Stan's critics will likely say "to milk them for all they were worth!")  I thought the Hairies were WWII veteran Kirby's sympathetic and optimistic view of the then-current flower power generation, and a prototype of sorts for the soon to be released Forever People. And the DNA Project was I believe the first significant use of cloning in mainstream comics, before the Goodwin/Simonson Manhunter, before the Gwen Stacy clone, etc. etc. etc.

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Can anyone explain what or who The Black Racer was supposed to be?  A crippled Vietnam vet who is paralyzed, but somehow can ski across the sky each night? Why does he ski? Because surfing was already taken?

The Black Racer is the avatar of Death, long recognized by the New Genesis and Apokolips races.  Kirby does not tell us about the first Black Racer, but he shows us the character passing on the mantle to his successor, that Vietnam vet.  Had the series continued, I bet we would have revisited the character, perhaps now faced with the choice of continuing existence as a paralyzed human being, or dying and/or assuming full time the god-like Black Racer persona. And yes, I think BR is Kirby's pretty obvious Silver Surfer do-over for DC.

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Kirby felt Superman was too full of himself, so he brought in Don Rickles as a foil.

Exhibit A for why writers/artists sometimes need an editor to step in and remind them their initial brainstorms occasionally need re-thinking.

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Does anyone want to discuss the KIrbyverse?  Devil Dinosaur?

Sorry.  Hard pass.  

Edited September 19, 2023 by Zonker
typos

[gunsmokin]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:29 AM, jimjum12 said:

Personally, Atlas produced some of my favorite comics ever made. They didn't have much in the way of chaps running around with their panties on the outside of their breeches, but even in the 50's there was a market for those who wanted something more sophisticated ... all done without Kirby or Ditko. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

... and for those who felt Roy Thomas had no talent, maybe those Avengers were over their head... all those multi-syllable words to swallow. 

I'm pretty sure that Neal Adams would be happy to tell you about Roy's lack of talent and credit stealing of the Kree/Skrull War.

 

[Steven Valdez]

Roy Thomas is among the last of the 1960s Marvel alumni still standing, along with Jim Steranko and Sal Buscema. Oh wait, Larry Lieber too.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[shadroch]

Stan Lee somehow managed to be Editor in Chief for Marvel/Atlas for twenty-seven years. When he left, many capable people couldn't fill his shoes.  Roy Thomas lasted about two years. Len Wein, Archie Goodwin, Marv Wolfman, Gerry Conway- none of them could handle the job Stan did, even with a reduced writing load.  While you can count the number of missed deadlines in the SA on one finger, Marvel Bronze Age runs are spoiled by fill-in issues. I think the Avengers used four filler issues in just over a year and even missed their key 150th issue that was supposed to introduce the new team.  It took six years before Jim Shooter righted the ship.

Look at the chaos around Marvel's early 70s Giant size issues.  They introduce a couple of  52 page 35-cent books, and announce plans for a line of 100-page books at sixty cents, but then market sixty-eight-page books for 50 cents.  The idea is to inform your audience, not to confuse them. 

 

[Zonker]

On 9/19/2023 at 6:22 AM, jimjum12 said:

Yeah, right ... it was making money and yet they cancelled it. Keep drinking that Kool-aid. GOD BLESS... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I love much of the stuff that DC put out from 1968-1974, but it is clear that those in charge of DC during those years lost their way as to what was actually selling:

 

[Zonker]

More on the Rickles Jimmy Olsens--

I wonder if Kirby himself had second thoughts about this storyline, given the cover blurb "Don't Ask!  Just Buy It!" 

I'm not sure who was in charge of the cover copy on Kirby's DC books.  I'm betting it was Kirby, given the over-the-top hype at the bottom right, which  sounds like an attempt by Kirby to one-up Stan Lee.  Left to their own devices, I don't think the powers-that-be at DC in those days were doing this level of hard-sell:

 

 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:41 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Roy Thomas is among the last of the 1960s Marvel alumni still standing, along with Jim Steranko and Sal Buscema. Oh wait, Larry Lieber too.

I suppose Barry Smith as well (he arrived in 1968). Is there really no one else left?

[Prince Namor]

From Facebook:

Wacky Captions

One of the most oddly affecting parts of Abraham Josephine Riesman's terrific book True Believer is watching Stan Lee vainly dragging out his old "silly captions for photographs" idea again and again, decade after decade, long after it is clear that no one wants it.

Lee's endless parade of new business partners breathlessly urge him to create the next Fantastic Four and the next Spider-Man. But in the end, what Lee has to offer, decade after decade, is more gag photo captions.

More than almost anything else in this compelling book, the constant drumbeat of Lee bringing up "silly caption books" drives home just how creatively bankrupt Stan Lee was, and how desperately dependent he was on real writer-artists to make his reputation as a writer. Without them, what did he have? Gags on someone else's work.

As Chuck Gower points out in his post "It just isn't funny or especially creative. It's like he bought a 25 cent joke book and inserted the lines he thought would fit"

It occurs to me that Stan Lee viewed the brilliant sequential work of great writer-artists like Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko as little more than the royalty-free public domain photographs he used for his low-effort captions: cheap, expendable trash on which to scribble some wacky one-liners and call it a day.

 

Steve Ditko, REVEALING STYLES, 2008.

"It is important to understand a writer's writing and speaking style, especially with his beliefs and claims, so one is able to understand his true intentions and goals....

Stan Lee's dominant writing/speaking style is designed to give the impression of being non-serious, playful, having fun, to show that he is not mean-spirited, won't harm, abuse or hurt anyone....

Lee's style also means nothing is important to him unless it affects his status, his "creator" claims which must be reinforced and protected...

...fun humor can be a disguise, a deception, a manipulative device, a technique to undercut the importance of facts...

It's a good strategy, a good excuse, to claim to have a poor memory, and thereby avoid the consequences of his false claims..."

[Prince Namor]

"Stan Lee somehow managed to be Editor in Chief for Marvel/Atlas for twenty-seven years."

Another fallacy about Lee. He was certainly in charge - so Goodman didn't have to deal with the minutia of day to day operations, but it was Al Sulman who actually ran Atlas during this time, over seeing the writer/editors of each genre, and buying stories from Writers Digest. Stan did a very minimal amount of writing during this time other than mostly dumb blonde books (see my 1954-1959) and a few generic Westerns genre stories.

 

"When he left, many capable people couldn't fill his shoes.  Roy Thomas lasted about two years. Len Wein, etc...."

Of course. They didn't have Kirby or Ditko in their prime to do their writing for them. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:23 AM, Zonker said:

Well, 14-year-old me thought those 6 issues were incredible when I found taped-up back issue copies in a local used book store in the late 1970s.

Funniest thing I ever heard about Kirby taking over Jimmy Olsen was... "He tore down everything they'd built up over 20 years!"

LOL. As if Jimmy Olsen had such a rich history of excellence. 

On 9/19/2023 at 9:23 AM, Zonker said:

The Black Racer is the avatar of Death, long recognized by the New Genesis and Apokolips races.  Kirby does not tell us about the first Black Racer, but he shows us the character passing on the mantle to his successor, that Vietnam vet.  Had the series continued, I bet we would have revisited the character, perhaps now faced with the choice of continuing existence as a paralyzed human being, or dying and/or assuming full time the god-like Black Racer persona. And yes, I think BR is Kirby's pretty obvious Silver Surfer do-over for DC.

Imagine if Goodman pulled the plug on the Fantastic Four after 12 issues and we never learned about Dr. Doom's origin or Reed and Ben in college or all of the characterization that came about as time went on. Kirby was laying groundwork for a LOT of stuff... and it takes time to flesh out that characterization. 

On 9/19/2023 at 9:23 AM, Zonker said:

Does anyone want to discuss the KIrbyverse?  Devil Dinosaur?

Sorry.  Hard pass.  

Kirby was 76 years old in 1993 when the Kirbyverse was launched.

And people who make fun of Devil Dinosaur, usually haven't even read it. It's actually really good. Stan Lee readers might be a little confused by it, as there aren't any muscular men in skin tight spandex running around saying "That and two bits will get you a cup of coffee!", but the open minded will be able to see exactly what Kirby was going for. 

Besides... it was Marvel's idea: "Having learned that DC Comics was working on an animated series featuring Kirby's Kamandi, Marvel attempted to one-up their competitor by instructing Kirby to create a series similar to Kamandi, but incorporating a dinosaur co-star, since dinosaurs were hugely popular with young audiences of the time."

Edited September 19, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:47 AM, Zonker said:

I love much of the stuff that DC put out from 1968-1974, but it is clear that those in charge of DC during those years lost their way as to what was actually selling...

Yep. It was very poorly run. 

Funny how history doesn't reflect what Jenette Khan did for DC Comics.

Stan Lee leaves Marvel in the 70's to 'take Marvel to Hollywood' and... we get nothing.

Meanwhile Jenette Khan comes to a struggling DC Comics, implements a huge expansion (that fails... people just didn't want to pay that much for comics... though we got tons of great material during that time!) and so reloads and comes up with royalties for creators - pulling in talent from Marvel and successfully building up their line again. She then oversaw the recruitment of writers and artists from the UK, breathing life into the new Vertigo line - AND the creation of Milestone, highlighting minority creators. During her reign, DC brought out 4 Superman films, 4 Batman films and began a run of animation projects that is still successful today. 

Yet... where's the glorification of her???

 

Best selling graphic novels of all time include:

Sandman

V for Vendetta

Watchmen

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns

Batman: Year One

Batman: The Killing Joke

Kingdom Come

 

Oh that's right... she didn't sign her name to any of it...

Edited September 19, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/20/2023 at 2:19 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I suppose Barry Smith as well (he arrived in 1968). Is there really no one else left?

Barry, of course. One of my all-time faves too.

What's sad is that even a large number of 1970s Marvel creators are no longer with us.

[jimjum12]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:35 AM, gunsmokin said:

I'm pretty sure that Neal Adams would be happy to tell you about Roy's lack of talent and credit stealing of the Kree/Skrull War.

Roy did a lot more than the Kree Skrull War , and he could at least meet a deadline. If Neal was such a polished writer, why did he need Denny O'Neil to do whatever he did on all (... yes, all) of his critically acclaimed output at D.C.? Sometimes I think you folks just like looking at the pictures and resent anyone who puts words in your way. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited September 20, 2023 by jimjum12

[shadroch]

Did Prince Namor quote Chuck Gower to support his thought? 

[gunsmokin]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:01 PM, jimjum12 said:

Roy did a lot more than the Kree Skrull War , and he could at least meet a deadline. If Neal was such a polished writer, why did he need Denny O'Neil to do whatever he did on all (... yes, all) of his critically acclaimed output at D.C.? Sometimes I think you folks just like looking at the pictures and resent anyone who puts words in your way. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

You are the last person I’d resent but I do think you’ve let 40-50 years of Marvel’s indoctrination cloud the possibility that critical thinking could prove Stan and Roy weren’t everything they claimed to be either. I’m sure you’ve met them all as have I with Jack Kirby being the lone exception for me. I think Michael Vassollo have proven beyond a doubt that Lee wasn’t nearly as talented or as creative as he claimed to be.

[gunsmokin]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:31 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Barry, of course. One of my all-time faves too.

What's sad is that even a large number of 1970s Marvel creators are no longer with us.

Someone should ask BWS if he ever saw any scripts from Roy. Torn out pages from an REH Conan book don’t count.

[jimjum12]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:42 PM, gunsmokin said:

You are the last person I’d resent but I do think you’ve let 40-50 years of Marvel’s indoctrination cloud the possibility that critical thinking could prove Stan and Roy weren’t everything they claimed to be either. I’m sure you’ve met them all as have I with Jack Kirby being the lone exception for me. I think Michael Vassollo have proven beyond a doubt that Lee wasn’t nearly as talented or as creative as he claimed to be.

He sure wrote some of the best dialog to grace comics, of which I don't see any credited to Dr. Vassallo. Those who can, do.Those who can't, critique. I grew up buying Stan and Roy's books off the rack, the dialog(and captions) were some of my favorite parts. Each had a unique "voice". Sorry, I just don't buy some of this vitriol. GOD BLESS... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Why would someone spend all those hours of their precious life trying to tear down someone's reputation. Wow.

On the other hand, I definitely tip my hat to the contributions he made to www.atlastales.com 

Edited September 20, 2023 by jimjum12