Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

@lordbyroncomics

[Dr. Haydn]

I learned to read from comic books beginning in 1969 (mainly Gold Key and Harvey, with a bit of Charlton thrown in). When I got into superhero comics in 1973, it was a bad time, quality-wise, for both DC and Marvel, by and large. (Some of the more interesting work I sampled was Gerber's Defenders, and Englehart's Captain Marvel and Dr. Strange. I discovered Howard the Duck later, getting a bunch of back issues on the cheap at the local comics shop.) Marvel's Silver Age reprints, despite their occasional shortcomings and predicable plotlines, were often a better read. 

The 80s were much better: Miller's Daredevil, Stern's Avengers, Claremont's X-titles. And the British Invasion revitalized DC. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was a revelation, as was Neil Gaiman's Sandman.

 

[Dr. Haydn]

'Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose,' as they say?

 

“These guys do the heavy work,” said Lee. “They come up with the ideas, they do the writing, they do the drawing and I say, ‘I think maybe you ought to change that word, or maybe his arm should be this way instead of that way,’ and I get the credit for this thing. How can you do better than that?” – Stan Lee, 2010

[sfcityduck]

On 9/4/2023 at 6:08 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I learned to read from comic books beginning in 1969 (mainly Gold Key and Harvey, with a bit of Charlton thrown in). When I got into superhero comics in 1973, it was a bad time, quality-wise, for both DC and Marvel, by and large. (Some of the more interesting work I sampled was Gerber's Defenders, and Englehart's Captain Marvel and Dr. Strange. I discovered Howard the Duck later, getting a bunch of back issues on the cheap at the local comics shop.) Marvel's Silver Age reprints, despite their occasional shortcomings and predicable plotlines, were often a better read. 

The 80s were much better: Miller's Daredevil, Stern's Avengers, Claremont's X-titles. And the British Invasion revitalized DC. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was a revelation, as was Neil Gaiman's Sandman.

 

The late 70s gave us Roger-Austin Batman, Byrne-Austin IF and X-Men and Avengers, Perez various, Golden Micronauts, Miller DD, and many other great books. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:16 PM, sfcityduck said:

The late 70s gave us Roger-Austin Batman, Byrne-Austin IF and X-Men and Avengers, Perez various, Golden Micronauts, Miller DD, and many other great books. 

Certainly, things were picking up in the late 70s. I kinda liked the Wolfman-Pollard retro Spider-man (Pollard did a great Faux Ditko), and Roger Stern's brief Hulk run. I resumed picking up X-men early in the Claremont-Byrne-Austin run. I regret missing DC's resurgence during those years: DC was less good than Marvel about putting out trade paperbacks and omnibus editions back in the day.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:29 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

DC was less good than Marvel about putting out trade paperbacks and omnibus editions back in the day.

I don’t think anyone was putting out collected editions of recently issued material until later in the 1980s. Dark Knight was the the first HC of current material I recall off the top of my head.  I do recall some Marvel HC and SC Silver Age and DC HC and SC Gold and Silver coming out in the 70s.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/6/2023 at 4:27 AM, sfcityduck said:

I don’t think anyone was putting out collected editions of recently issued material until later in the 1980s. Dark Knight was the the first HC of current material I recall off the top of my head.  I do recall some Marvel HC and SC Silver Age and DC HC and SC Gold and Silver coming out in the 70s.

 

On 9/6/2023 at 4:27 AM, sfcityduck said:

I don’t think anyone was putting out collected editions of recently issued material until later in the 1980s. Dark Knight was the the first HC of current material I recall off the top of my head.  I do recall some Marvel HC and SC Silver Age and DC HC and SC Gold and Silver coming out in the 70s.

Yeah, I should have specified that it was mid-80s onward that I was looking for back issues and TPBs to fill that gap. I think the Dark Phoenix storyline was available fairly early on. DC started to put out Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Neil Gaiman's Sandman by the early 90s, but I don't recall seeing any of their Bronze Age highlights until much later.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Fantastic Four #26 - Unforgettably Written in the Grand Manner by: Stan Lee   Powerfully Drawn in a Heroic Manner by: Jack Kirby     Inked by: George Bell   Lettered by: Art Simek

Cover by Jack Kirby (inks by Sol Brodsky)

Another aspect of Marvel's popularity that would grow over DC was the ACTION. You only saw this from a Kirby book early on, because that was the way Jack viewed things with superheroes. Stan of course didn't mind, he could just insert his Millie the Model wiseazz dialogue and it was easy for him. 

The fanboys seemed to eat it up. They didn't have to THINK. It was like an action movie that was just carried along by the movement.

It's almost comical, to the point of 'over compensation' to see Stan put 'Unforgettably Written in the Grand Manner by' for his byline on THIS story in particular, when it's quite easy to see it as a clear example of Jack simply putting together a BRAWL over 22 pages. But of course, the point is to MINIMIZE what Jack did, thus the 'Powerfully Drawn in a Heroic Manner' byline for him, which can be manipulated as 'See! See how much credit we give the artist!'

It all plays into Stan's plans perfectly. All he'd need to do now is find himself a houseboy... someone who works in the land of fanboy publications.... who can continue to help him manipulate those fanboys...

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Fantastic Four #26 - 

Part TWO

[Dr. Haydn]

Yeah, this was not a whole lot of work to dialogue. Jack's visuals carry the story just fine.

[Dr. Haydn]

Panel 1: Artie Simek, Letterer Supreme, invents a new word (ixnax). I guess he couldn't read Stan's handwriting?  Plus, Artie obviously had forgotten his pig Latin!

[Prince Namor]

One of these days I need to buy the mag and get the whole interview. (1962 Bernie Krigstein interview, published in Squa Tront #6)

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:32 PM, Prince Namor said:

One of these days I need to buy the mag and get the whole interview. (1962 Bernie Krigstein interview, published in Squa Tront #6)

So, if someone says the Marvel method is bad because it leaves it to the artists who, without a detailed -script, will give us "infantile" and "futile action" we should agree, so long as the intent behind that assessment is to prove that Stan is bad.

And if someone says the Marvel Method is good because it proves that  artists do it all and therefore Stan is bad, then that is also true.  

All statements and opinions are correct if they contain the key argument that "this proves Stan is bad"

 

  

Edited September 9, 2023 by BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Strange Tales #120 - Deftly Written by: Stan Lee   Dazzlingly Drawn by: Jack Kirby    Dramatically Inked by: Dick Ayers   Distinctively Lettered by: S. Rosen

Cover by Jack Kirby (inks by George Roussous)

It's kind of nice to see two Marvel Superheroes meet up and actually get along for once. 

[Dr. Haydn]

Back in the day when Bobby Drake was seen as a lady killer!

[KirbyJack]

I love Strange Tales 120 so much I bought a reader copy!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Strange Tales #120 - Written at Midnight by: Stan Lee   Drawn at Candlelight by: Steve Ditko  Lettered at Twilight by: S. Rosen

Here it's very likely that Lee had a hand in this story - he didn't WRITE it - but most likely gave the idea to Ditko of doing a Haunted House story where the HOUSE is the actual living thing - a concept he's repeated over and over again in one form or another. (The original idea, most likely from the stories that were solicited over the years from Writer's Digest). 

Ditko then put it together and Lee added all that additional exposition...  its not a bad little story, but anyone who's followed this thread since the beginning will recognize the gimmick to it. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Strange Tales #120 - AD

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/10/2023 at 1:42 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1964

Strange Tales #120 - Written at Midnight by: Stan Lee   Drawn at Candlelight by: Steve Ditko  Lettered at Twilight by: S. Rosen

Here it's very likely that Lee had a hand in this story - he didn't WRITE it - but most likely gave the idea to Ditko of doing a Haunted House story where the HOUSE is the actual living thing - a concept he's repeated over and over again in one form or another. (The original idea, most likely from the stories that were solicited over the years from Writer's Digest). 

Ditko then put it together and Lee added all that additional exposition...  its not a bad little story, but anyone who's followed this thread since the beginning will recognize the gimmick to it. 

I really enjoyed this when I saw it in a mid-1970s reprint (an issue of Giant-Size Defenders, perhaps). 

I wonder if the scoffing spectators was Stan's idea or Steve's? Their skepticism contrasts nicely with the life-and-death mystic battle going on inside the house.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/10/2023 at 3:20 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I really enjoyed this when I saw it in a mid-1970s reprint (an issue of Giant-Size Defenders, perhaps). 

Giant Size Defenders #3!

On 9/10/2023 at 3:20 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I wonder if the scoffing spectators was Stan's idea or Steve's? Their skepticism contrasts nicely with the life-and-death mystic battle going on inside the house.

That's pretty consistent with Stan over most of the books, it seems.