A discussion on Artificial Intelligence and how it's going to affect our industry. 3 3

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:36 AM, namisgr said:

Ironically, this is a thread created to air beefs, be them against plant-based meat substitutes, amorphous fears of technology-based advances and robotization, or legitimate concerns over new, unvetted and unregulated ways to access and disseminate information over the internet.

It's also weird that these beefs are being made public using devices and services that are based on sophisticated and complex robotics-based miniaturization, construction, and assembly, along with use of ultra-high frequency communication signals not routinely accessed before outside of aviation, and codes written and evaluated by combined contributions of humans and specialized machines, all part of the very technological advances that are being painted negatively.

I don't feel there's any beefs being aired here. It's a discussion between people who think AI is neat and those who think AI sucks. I think AI sucks for the creative process. It will always suck for the creative process no matter how many advancements it makes, or how many people try to shoehorn their perspective to convince people it's actually a positive thing. It sucks today, it's going to suck tomorrow and it's going to suck harder in 10 years. Using AI to shortcut a creative process that your brain should be capable of doing for the sake of saving time or money does not advance the artistic spirit.

The discussion about computers and AI are two different things. One is used for accessing or used as a tool - I have no beef, plant-based or otherwise - against someone who uses a computer to create art, because it's a tool, like a crowquill or paintbrush. The other substitutes for analytical thinking, divergent thinking, critical thinking and creative thinking. We're not talking about computers here (at least I'm not).

[namisgr]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:46 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I don't feel there's any beefs being aired here.

The effects of artificial intelligence on comic book creation are indeed a large part of the discussion, but the airing of broad beefs about the world, progress, technology, knowledge, the origins of life on earth, brain-machine interfaces, social organization, the communication of information, vast conspiracies, and many different topics that are typical fodder for the Water Cooler are another. These are just a handful of examples, but being unwilling to read every post in the thread and seeing these quoted by others, I imagine there are many more. 

 

On 9/15/2023 at 11:37 PM, VintageComics said:

Great analogy, because now, as we speak FAKE BEEF is being labelled as food when it isn't actually food. 

 

On 9/3/2023 at 3:13 PM, VintageComics said:

Negative emotion is a far more powerful motivator than positive emotion. This is indisputable.

That's is why media preys on people's fears - you get a FAR MORE visceral and immediate reaction be touching people's fears than by appealing to their good senses. 

 

On 9/7/2023 at 11:58 PM, VintageComics said:

You know what the solution is? It's the same for most of the world's problems. 

Raise better children and have stronger families so that people do work that is worth respecting. When people don't respect themselves, they don't respect anything they do either. 

The new world is constantly putting the cart before the horse and this is where the majority of problems seem to come from. 

 

On 9/3/2023 at 3:57 PM, VintageComics said:

To me, this brings on the real question of 'what is a soul'?

 

Pure profit vs pure art. 

Atoms vs order. 

Random structures vs intelligent design. 

 

On 9/9/2023 at 9:45 PM, VintageComics said:

Bringing back a strong middle class is contradictory to what many of the wealthy would want. They don't want an educated, intelligent, hard working middle class because that directly threatens them. 

It's much more convenient to them to have a ruling class and a subservient society...and I firmly believe this is an actual goal by the ruling class. They don't give two hoots about your feelings or your life and the economy is much easier to direct in their favor when we're all either ignorant, poor or against each other. 

This formula is the #1 thing that's changed since the powerful middle class post WW2 and I believe it's by design. You can see how corruption spreads as the middle class wanes. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by namisgr

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/5/2023 at 10:21 AM, namisgr said:

The effects of artificial intelligence on comic book creation are indeed a large part of the discussion, but the airing of broad beefs about the world, progress, technology, knowledge, the origins of life on earth, brain-machine interfaces, social organization, the communication of information, vast conspiracies, and many different topics that are typical fodder for the Water Cooler are another. These are just a handful of examples, but being unwilling to read every post in the thread and seeing these quoted by others, I imagine there are many more. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, I’ll give you that. For me, it doesn’t seem much of a beef (against specific people) as it’s a discussion, and since it’s Roy’s thread, he is actively engaged in it.

You did mention that it’s a beef towards actual beef and technology (neither should ever mix), and I jumped right past that thinking it was about issues with specific boardies and not the terms you outlined.

Should we be talking about this other stuff? Hell, I don’t know. Threads move along organically and all sorts of stuff gets us off topic. To me, it seems like it’s still an interesting discussion. I’m not going to change people’s minds with my viewpoint - but it helps with typing practice.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[namisgr]

On 10/5/2023 at 2:37 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Should we be talking about this other stuff? Hell, I don’t know. Threads move along organically and all sorts of stuff gets us off topic.

While they often do, in rare cases like the present topics dealing with talking points of technology, knowledge, the origins of life on earth, brain-machine interfaces, social organization, the communication of information, vast conspiracies, and the like didn't get to Comics General organically.

[justadude]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:29 AM, Dr. Balls said:

We're not going to collapse overnight, but we've shot past the point of no return years ago.

This has been repeated in Western Civilization for the past 2200 years. But I'm sure this time it's going to happen.

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:17 PM, justadude said:

This has been repeated in Western Civilization for the past 2200 years. But I'm sure this time it's going to happen.

 I can feel the eyeroll burning it's way through the information superhighway all the way to my CRT monitor. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/5/2023 at 2:40 PM, namisgr said:

While they often do, in rare cases like the present topics dealing with talking points of technology, knowledge, the origins of life on earth, brain-machine interfaces, social organization, the communication of information, vast conspiracies, and the like didn't get to Comics General organically.

I can see why you're pointing that out - we are veering off a comic book topic. However, I enjoy Roy's discussions he puts up here, and to be honest - I don't end up in the water cooler much, so I don't see them that often. If something were to happen to the thread, I hope it'd just get moved - there's some interesting back and forth here.

[VintageComics]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:29 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I don't expect 95% of the population to understand my perspective, because it's much more focused on the issues I experience day-to-day compared to other people who might experience them once a week or once a month. If you had to deal with distribution, supply chain, employment, vendor relations, local government and oversight on a near-daily basis - you would see there are very significant problems across our society that didn't exist 5-6 years ago. And I'm not talking media fear-mongering. I'm talking about the basic functionality of our society's Capitalistic infrastructure as a whole.

I'd have to disagree - or perhaps meet in the middle. We're not going to collapse overnight, but we've shot past the point of no return years ago.

100% accurate, on all points. I feel like you and I tend to see and understand things along similar lines. Society has practically fallen back into the middle ages while pretending we haven't.

Most people are used to being leading examples not leaders. Very few actually have the ability to foresee much, which is why we're always cleaning up messes as a society AFTER the fact and not BEFORE. Their hindsight is perfect but foresight, not so much. 

--------------------------------------

While AI may not specifically upend the comic industry tomorrow, it IS upending underlying factors in EVERY industry now.

And, while it's not going to replace Frank Miller or Will Eisner, those guys will just get much more valuable because they're irreplaceable while everyone inferior gets....replaced. 

 

To your point about collapse, just like when an old building structure collapses, collapses don't just 'happen' out of the blue. They happen after decades of neglect.

A collapse itself may look sudden, but there are many clues signalling when a collapse is coming. You just have to be looking in the right place to see it but most are looking in the opposite direction or worse, some live in denial. It takes YEARS or even DECADES of denial to before a collapse happens. 

So, for example on this forum we've been talking about new comic sales for 20 years. And every time the conversation happens, you get people stating comic sales are dead and the apologists defending comic sales.

But over 20 years, what has changed?

They've continually printed less and less comics each year.

So how can we still be having the same argument year after year while the numbers continue to drop?

Because some live in denial. 

And those in denial always seem busy trying to make sure nobody is listening to the people who can clearly see what's coming. 

[CGC Mike]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:02 PM, Dr. Balls said:

 I can feel the eyeroll burning it's way through the information superhighway all the way to my CRT monitor. 

This has been etched in stone.

[CAHokie]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:09 PM, CGC Mike said:

This has been etched in stone.

Well done!

[VintageComics]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:46 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I don't feel there's any beefs being aired here. It's a discussion between people who think AI is neat and those who think AI sucks. I think AI sucks for the creative process. It will always suck for the creative process no matter how many advancements it makes, or how many people try to shoehorn their perspective to convince people it's actually a positive thing. It sucks today, it's going to suck tomorrow and it's going to suck harder in 10 years. Using AI to shortcut a creative process that your brain should be capable of doing for the sake of saving time or money does not advance the artistic spirit.

The discussion about computers and AI are two different things. One is used for accessing or used as a tool - I have no beef, plant-based or otherwise - against someone who uses a computer to create art, because it's a tool, like a crowquill or paintbrush. The other substitutes for analytical thinking, divergent thinking, critical thinking and creative thinking. We're not talking about computers here (at least I'm not).

namisgr has a history of trying to control narratives that oppose him, control threads and even control what people post.

He has CONSTANTLY called me out for posting something "off topic" in a thread over the last 3 years, but then he'd go INTO THAT SAME THREAD AND POST OFF TOPICS POSTS HIMSELF.

I've publicly pointed it out many times. 

And for some reason, over the last month he is constantly critiquing which of MY posts or threads belong and which don't. 

Do you think he has another agenda other than discussion? 

 

On 10/5/2023 at 12:21 PM, namisgr said:

The effects of artificial intelligence on comic book creation are indeed a large part of the discussion, but the airing of broad beefs about the world, progress, technology, knowledge, the origins of life on earth, brain-machine interfaces, social organization, the communication of information, vast conspiracies, and many different topics that are typical fodder for the Water Cooler are another. These are just a handful of examples, but being unwilling to read every post in the thread and seeing these quoted by others, I imagine there are many more. 

 

On 10/5/2023 at 4:40 PM, namisgr said:

While they often do, in rare cases like the present topics dealing with talking points of technology, knowledge, the origins of life on earth, brain-machine interfaces, social organization, the communication of information, vast conspiracies, and the like didn't get to Comics General organically.

If you click on all the links to all of my points that you copied and posted, you'll see that all of my posts were used as either parallels or examples to strengthen points germane to this thread. 

In fact, every reply you pasted was a reply TO ANOTHER PERSON. Not you.

Some of the posts you linked Mike has even already said were OK. 

So the REAL question is why are you constantly trying to control what others say?  

Why are you so concerned about the integrity of Comics General all of a sudden.

If you don't like the thread, the best thing for everyone is to just stay out of it.

[VintageComics]

On 10/5/2023 at 2:37 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Ok, I’ll give you that. For me, it doesn’t seem much of a beef (against specific people) as it’s a discussion, and since it’s Roy’s thread, he is actively engaged in it.

You did mention that it’s a beef towards actual beef and technology (neither should ever mix), and I jumped right past that thinking it was about issues with specific boardies and not the terms you outlined.

The discussion about beef was incidental. Valiantman posted something about beef and I just posted a reply. And it was over. That was it.

But Valiantman and I have been friends for many years on here and I didn't think my reply to Valiantman needed to be scrutinized. Did you? 

There is no discussion about beef but some people have a real BEEF with me and they are constantly trying to either have my threads moved or my posting restricted.

On 10/5/2023 at 2:37 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Should we be talking about this other stuff? Hell, I don’t know. Threads move along organically and all sorts of stuff gets us off topic. To me, it seems like it’s still an interesting discussion. I’m not going to change people’s minds with my viewpoint - but it helps with typing practice.

Thank you. It's a sad day when even simple discussions with strangers need to get micromanaged. 

If he hadn't copied those replies NOBODY WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THEM ANYMORE. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by VintageComics

[justadude]

On 10/5/2023 at 6:06 PM, VintageComics said:

So how can we still be having the same argument year after year while the numbers continue to drop?

In 2020, the comics industry made $1.26 billion. In 2015, $900 million. It's been steadily growing for the past 25 years.

But I'm probably just in denial.

I'd guess these forums are made up of mostly of superhero collectors, which is totally fine, but it's not reflective of the actual comics market. Marvel and DC aren't litmus tests for the comic industry. Manga, Scholastica, independents, web comics, etc. make up the majority of the market by far, and it's not even close.

My last point and then I'll see myself out. It is incredibly grating for younger collectors to be a part of a hobby that continually sh_ts on everything. This is not unique to this time period. Fans in the 90s berated the changes to superheroes in the same. exact. way. they berate them today. It's why the comic book fan stereotypes are accurate when it comes to sniveling dorks pointing out continuity errors and how "My (insert character) would never do that." It's the same rhetoric. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and it's BORING. It's uninteresting. It's pointless. And it's just old men whining.

The "sky has been falling" since humans invented the word for "sky." And things have gotten worse at times, but on the whole, they've gotten a hell of a lot better. It's not even up for debate. In all the metrics that actually matter: war, disease, preventable causes of death, car accidents, work hours, famine, cancer, abject poverty, birth survival, and I could go on, have decreased per capita across the globe over the last 500 years. It's really in vogue to say the world's going to hell because it fits really well with a nihilistic ideology that "nothing matters, so I'll look out for myself" which translates to "I'll buy whatever I want." You become the perfect consumer because nothing matters, it's all going down the drain, and I might as well "get mine" and not worry about anyone else. Not only is it really cynical and a tough way to wake up every morning, but it's also wrong, as in the world always feels like it's getting worse because human skepticism is what breeds ingenuity. If you want to live like this, then fine, but it's a choice, not a reality, and I only ask that people on these boards, and just people in general, stop stating a belief as "fact."

I'm gonna go read a comic . . .

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:55 PM, justadude said:

In 2020, the comics industry made $1.26 billion. In 2015, $900 million. It's been steadily growing for the past 25 years.

But I'm probably just in denial.

Losing customers and raising prices to continues to show "growth" to shareholders is not a concept that is applied only to comic books. I don't claim to know the metrics of how those sales are measured, but just stating an increase in revenue is not proof of anything at all. For all we know, those figures are skewed by increases in licensing during the MCU boom, not content creation geared toward customer acquisition. OR, it could be that they are indeed selling more comics. More information is required.

Increases in industry profit (of any industry) is a precursor of expansion. I can't speak to where you live, but where I live, there has been a continual contraction in comic book retailers, with a major shift towards expanding their product lines to bring different kinds of customers into the store. Comics aren't selling, but perhaps tabletop games and anime are. Etc.

You're not in denial. You're not looking any further into the data to see the permutations of what's being discussed. I will agree that this place can be filled with "the sky is falling" commentary, but it's also filled with a lot of gainful experience. And yeah, I'm one of those guys who wish things were how they used to be, because what's going on now sucks. But I have that perspective, because I can recall being able to do the things I do every day with ease, but now it's a total timesuck - despite no other variables in my situation changing.

Lots of good stuff going on in comics, but there's plenty to discuss. I don't want to be a harbinger of doom, but when it comes time to talk about stuff here, I'm going to lend my perspective - which is not sunshine and lollipops any longer. That's the downside to getting older. Enjoy it while it lasts, because you'll be like everyone else in a few years whether you swear up and down you won't be.

And don't check out of this thread. You're lending your perspective, and that's what this place needs. Sure, it feels like you are getting dogpiled, but I'm not afraid to concede to opposing viewpoints. It's meant to be a place where we can all discuss, even when we don't agree. Stick around.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:09 PM, CGC Mike said:

This has been etched in stone.

YES!

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:06 PM, VintageComics said:

100% accurate, on all points. I feel like you and I tend to see and understand things along similar lines. Society has practically fallen back into the middle ages while pretending we haven't.

I would agree. It's easy to brush aside what is going on in the world - just as easy as talking about how we've regressed. It's all part of the conversation. There's a lot of boardies on both sides that bring some great discussion. Sure, it might get heated and lines drawn, but in the end - this is a great place to delve into topics in and out of comics. I've said it before that I am far and away from conventions, but there's a bunch of guys here I'd love to meet in person just to sit and BS with. Thankfully @MatterEaterLad is my closest buddy, and he lives here. One of these days we're going to have to coordinate a Boardie Road Trip.

[Lazyboy]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:05 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Losing customers and raising prices to continues to show "growth" to shareholders is not a concept that is applied only to comic books. I don't claim to know the metrics of how those sales are measured, but just stating an increase in revenue is not proof of anything at all. For all we know, those figures are skewed by increases in licensing during the MCU boom, not content creation geared toward customer acquisition. OR, it could be that they are indeed selling more comics. More information is required.

So go look at it. Comichron has all the information you want.

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:56 PM, Lazyboy said:

So go look at it. Comichron has all the information you want.

It doesn’t have hardly any information I would want regarding this (at least from what I can see for full year 2022) There’s no data on digital subscriptions, it excludes certain distributors like Penguin, and provides no revenue information at all. It provides how many print comics and TPBs were sold through Diamond and speculations to how much something increased or decreased. Useful information, but not a lot.

I’m not the one to pass this along to - I’m not claiming the industry is up or down, I’m saying that citing a number or website isn’t enough to constitute an accurate depiction of what is happening. You’re quoting the wrong person here.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[VintageComics]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:55 AM, justadude said:

On 10/5/2023 at 9:06 PM, VintageComics said:

So how can we still be having the same argument year after year while the numbers continue to drop?

In 2020, the comics industry made $1.26 billion. In 2015, $900 million. It's been steadily growing for the past 25 years.

But I'm probably just in denial.

I'd guess these forums are made up of mostly of superhero collectors, which is totally fine, but it's not reflective of the actual comics market. Marvel and DC aren't litmus tests for the comic industry. Manga, Scholastica, independents, web comics, etc. make up the majority of the market by far, and it's not even close.

I should have been more clear but we've been having SEVERAL cross discussions and it's hard to keep them straight sometimes.

I asked weeks ago about total circulation numbers for sequential story telling books / comics and mused that Manga is probably the leader. 

But individual, traditional SUPERHERO COMICS publishing numbers are dropping and we've gone from printing a few MILLION copies of a book to a few thousand. 

My post about denial was specifically about people who fail to accept that publication numbers are dropping. But publication numbers and overall READERSHIP are 2 completely different things and readership is likely NOT dropping. It's likely increasing as the population increases.

What is changing is WHICH books people are buying. 

On 10/6/2023 at 1:55 AM, justadude said:

It is incredibly grating for younger collectors to be a part of a hobby that continually sh_ts on everything.

I'm not sure if you meant this for me but I haven't **** on anyone's collecting interests and never would.

Also, just an FYI but *masking* swear words is not allowed. If I'd done that I'd have 20 people notifying moderation to get me banned.

On 10/6/2023 at 1:55 AM, justadude said:

The "sky has been falling" since humans invented the word for "sky." And things have gotten worse at times, but on the whole, they've gotten a hell of a lot better. It's not even up for debate. In all the metrics that actually matter: war, disease, preventable causes of death, car accidents, work hours, famine, cancer, abject poverty, birth survival, and I could go on, have decreased per capita across the globe over the last 500 years.

100% and I'm full agreement. Talk of doom and gloom ignores the fact that we have less poverty, higher life expectancy and more social supports worldwide than any other time in history. There's also less of ALL negative things (some of which you didn't mention but are hot topics today).

But throughout history, you've also never seen such fast moving change. 

As a young person you're not used to how slow things used to move. My kids have no idea, but it was like living in a different universe just 20 or 30 years ago (I'm 53) and this discussion is simply a discussion about how things are being upended. 

And they are being upended. For the millions of people being upended, losing jobs or changing residences because of AI their sky has fallen. 

The only way to figure out HOW to deal with it is to discuss it. So what's wrong with discussing it?

On 10/6/2023 at 1:55 AM, justadude said:

It's really in vogue to say the world's going to hell because it fits really well with a nihilistic ideology that "nothing matters, so I'll look out for myself" which translates to "I'll buy whatever I want." You become the perfect consumer because nothing matters, it's all going down the drain, and I might as well "get mine" and not worry about anyone else. Not only is it really cynical and a tough way to wake up every morning, but it's also wrong, as in the world always feels like it's getting worse because human skepticism is what breeds ingenuity. If you want to live like this, then fine, but it's a choice, not a reality, and I only ask that people on these boards, and just people in general, stop stating a belief as "fact."

I couldn't agree more. 

That was a part of my much earlier point in the thread about not only discussing what AI itself is doing but what society is doing around AI to accept it, push it on people, protect people from it, deny it, etc.

Not only is this discussion about AI fully necessary, but much like when we discuss inertia OR ANY OTHER TOPIC, we can NEVER understand what Interia is capable of or how it'll interact with us unless we discuss ALL the opposing forces involved.

As if it needed to even be said for some. 

And that is why I think people should allow discussion to grow organically. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:05 AM, Dr. Balls said:

On 10/6/2023 at 1:55 AM, justadude said:

In 2020, the comics industry made $1.26 billion. In 2015, $900 million. It's been steadily growing for the past 25 years.

But I'm probably just in denial.

Losing customers and raising prices to continues to show "growth" to shareholders is not a concept that is applied only to comic books. I don't claim to know the metrics of how those sales are measured, but just stating an increase in revenue is not proof of anything at all. For all we know, those figures are skewed by increases in licensing during the MCU boom, not content creation geared toward customer acquisition. OR, it could be that they are indeed selling more comics. More information is required.

Increases in industry profit (of any industry) is a precursor of expansion. I can't speak to where you live, but where I live, there has been a continual contraction in comic book retailers, with a major shift towards expanding their product lines to bring different kinds of customers into the store. Comics aren't selling, but perhaps tabletop games and anime are. Etc.

You're not in denial. You're not looking any further into the data to see the permutations of what's being discussed. I will agree that this place can be filled with "the sky is falling" commentary, but it's also filled with a lot of gainful experience. And yeah, I'm one of those guys who wish things were how they used to be, because what's going on now sucks. But I have that perspective, because I can recall being able to do the things I do every day with ease, but now it's a total timesuck - despite no other variables in my situation changing.

Lots of good stuff going on in comics, but there's plenty to discuss. I don't want to be a harbinger of doom, but when it comes time to talk about stuff here, I'm going to lend my perspective - which is not sunshine and lollipops any longer. That's the downside to getting older. Enjoy it while it lasts, because you'll be like everyone else in a few years whether you swear up and down you won't be.

And don't check out of this thread. You're lending your perspective, and that's what this place needs. Sure, it feels like you are getting dogpiled, but I'm not afraid to concede to opposing viewpoints. It's meant to be a place where we can all discuss, even when we don't agree. Stick around.

I fully agree with everything you just said. Glad you're back. 

I to agree that @justadude shouldn't leave the discussion and that he brought up some very valid points to the discussion.

But most of all I just want to say that I swore I wouldn't be old and grumpy and here I am, old and grumpy.