A discussion on Artificial Intelligence and how it's going to affect our industry. 3 3

[Dr. Balls]

So, in the spirit of the thread, I went back to read a few things about the AI intro for 'Secret Invasion' This article:

https://www.polygon.com/23767640/ai-mcu-secret-invasion-opening-credits

Has some quick blurbs that showcase some of the grey area in using AI in art. For one, the company in charge of producing the credits says no artists were put out of work in their creation - which I would believe. Someone needs to administer the direction of the sequence, even if it's being digitally created by AI. The counter to that is that they say that they wanted to represent aspects of the show and the Skrull concept in the credits - this is where I take issue. Those creative parameters could be given to a human artist to explore and develop.

It's easier to allow AI to create options, to which a human operator can tweak with commands or input. You still need a human to approve, implement and ultimately sell the idea to producers. So while the net amount of jobs is probably the same, they remove the human creativity element from the process. This is what I - personally - don't like about AI.

Could a human have come up with the same style? Probably - but it comes down to time. How long would it have taken to develop that? Is there billable time in the budget to pay for someone to comp those things up, when AI might do it in 1/3 of the time?

In this scenario, it's easy to justify - and it came out looking really neat. I don't have an issue with what it created, because visually it's cool. However, as everyone knows: this is a slippery slope. When do non-creative people take the reigns and start producing substandard material that society as a whole begins to find acceptable? Or unique? When do people stop recognizing AI being derivative of human creators - and will they stop caring?

It's the erosion of creativity and the creative process - this has always been my argument. Not for what AI is doing now, but what it's going to be doing years from now.

Creativity is one of the unique human characteristics - it's one of those things that makes us different. I don't like the price we'll have to pay to have it replicated by a computer program.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[namisgr]

Artificial intelligence includes machine learning that is helping restore lost function in people who've suffered brain, spinal cord, and peripheral nerve damage from injury or disease.  It's a mighty hard sell to push the notion that using brain-machine interfaces and machine learning to aid those who've lost functioning of their arms or legs or can no longer speak or hear or see or suffer from uncontrollable seizures is predominantly about money, and is in jeopardy of running amok in ways we don't know, realize or understand.

Edited October 12, 2023 by namisgr

[CGC Mike]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:06 PM, VintageComics said:

@CGC Mike

I think this is a PERFECT example of how the notify button has been weaponized against some while glaring infractions stand in plain sight for others. 

Or, I took some time off today...

[VintageComics]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:32 PM, namisgr said:

Artificial intelligence includes machine learning that is helping restore lost function in people who've suffered brain, spinal cord, and peripheral nerve damage from injury or disease.  It's a mighty hard sell to push the notion that using brain-machine interfaces and machine learning to aid those who've lost functioning of their arms or legs or can no longer speak or hear or see or suffer from uncontrollable seizures is predominantly about money, and is in jeopardy of running amok in ways we don't know realize or understand.

On 10/7/2023 at 7:35 AM, namisgr said:

Story in Nature on the state of brain-machine interfaces, written for us interested lay people:

The brain-reading devices helping paralysed people to move, talk and touch Implants are becoming more sophisticated — and are attracting commercial interest.

So the field has a commercial side.  Is that somehow bad or evil, or a requisite step to taking findings and advances from the research laboratory that date back decades, and translating them to patients and the medical conditions they're suited to treat?

The schematic outlines the role for machine learning in decoding how nerve cell activity in the motor cortex of a paralyzed person can be translated into controlling a device that conducts writing.

 

Edited 6 minutes ago by namisgr

You JUST complained that this thread was off topic, didn't belong in Comics General, wanted the thread moved to the Watercooler....and then made an off topic post in the thread you complained about being off topic.

You're moving goal posts. Nobody is saying that AI or tech isn't helpful.

What isn't helpful is ONLY focusing on the positives and never discussing the negatives. That's about as useful, as...say....the Kudos forum, where someone could be a known criminal but if they only have positive feedback in their kudos thread, they could look like an honest seller but because you're NOT ALLOWED to leave negative feedback there, nobody is the wiser. 

See how that works? 

[namisgr]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:50 PM, VintageComics said:

You JUST complained that this thread was off topic

That would be because you've been off topic repeatedly. You brought to the thread mention of AI devices that will be used in humans.  So I took on for a talking point a tiny portion of the commentary unrelated to comic books that you've made. I already shared my thoughts on how artificial intelligence-generated plots, writing, and art would or would not impact comic creation early on in the thread.

     On 9/15/2023 at 11:37 PM,  VintageComics said: 

Great analogy, because now, as we speak FAKE BEEF is being labelled as food when it isn't actually food. 

 

     On 9/3/2023 at 3:13 PM,  VintageComics said: 

Negative emotion is a far more powerful motivator than positive emotion. This is indisputable.

That's is why media preys on people's fears - you get a FAR MORE visceral and immediate reaction be touching people's fears than by appealing to their good senses. 

 

     On 9/7/2023 at 11:58 PM,  VintageComics said: 

You know what the solution is? It's the same for most of the world's problems. 

Raise better children and have stronger families so that people do work that is worth respecting. When people don't respect themselves, they don't respect anything they do either. 

The new world is constantly putting the cart before the horse and this is where the majority of problems seem to come from. 

 

     On 9/3/2023 at 3:57 PM,  VintageComics said: 

To me, this brings on the real question of 'what is a soul'?

Pure profit vs pure art. 

Atoms vs order. 

Random structures vs intelligent design. 

 

     On 9/9/2023 at 9:45 PM,  VintageComics said: 

Bringing back a strong middle class is contradictory to what many of the wealthy would want. They don't want an educated, intelligent, hard working middle class because that directly threatens them. 

It's much more convenient to them to have a ruling class and a subservient society...and I firmly believe this is an actual goal by the ruling class. They don't give two hoots about your feelings or your life and the economy is much easier to direct in their favor when we're all either ignorant, poor or against each other. 

This formula is the #1 thing that's changed since the powerful middle class post WW2 and I believe it's by design. You can see how corruption spreads as the middle class wanes. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:09 PM, namisgr said:

On 10/11/2023 at 8:50 PM, VintageComics said:

You JUST complained that this thread was off topic

 

That would be because you've been off topic.

Well, not really because as I'd stated those were all parallels and / or comparable system models expounded on to make my point stronger, but I guess if you can't beat 'em, join 'em? 

Edited October 12, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:03 PM, namisgr said:

Announcement.  The Complaints Department For Bad Board Behavior has now moved.  Formerly located in the Water Cooler, it can now be found in Comics General.

 

Again, this is just more trolling and completely unnecessary, contentious posting about me specifically. 

@CGC Mike Can we NOT have board members continually disparage other board members and just have polite discussions?

Edited October 12, 2023 by VintageComics

[CGC Mike]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, VintageComics said:

 

Again, this is just more trolling and completely unnecessary, contentious posting about me specifically. 

@CGC Mike Can we NOT have board members continually disparage other board members and just have polite discussions?

Do I need to go back and show where you have called him out multiple times?  I think the score between the 2 of you is about even.  How much longer am I going to let this go on?  If it doesn't stay on topic, and be somewhat comic related, I will not move it to the water cooler.  I will just lock it.

[VintageComics]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:29 PM, CGC Mike said:

On 10/11/2023 at 9:15 PM, VintageComics said:

Again, this is just more trolling and completely unnecessary, contentious posting about me specifically. 

@CGC Mike Can we NOT have board members continually disparage other board members and just have polite discussions?

Do I need to go back and show where you have called him out multiple times?

The posts below are the totality of my replies to namisgr in this thread. Which one of my posts was problematic?

None of them are attacks or unsolicited replies from me to him, and they are all either proper replies to the topic of the thread or defenses against his accusations and trolling against me. 

I hadn't posted about him or to him UNTIL he started engaging and disparaging me and accusing me of posting off topic.

Why he is continually trying to get my posts and threads shut down is a question I'd like an answer to. 

On 9/5/2023 at 11:56 AM, VintageComics said:

You always seem to try to switch the topic from future impact to immediate benefits as though future impact should never be discussed.

The discussion is not about immediate benefits. We're not just talking about the now. I'm specifically talking about the future of the industry. 

The "learning is restricted to a circumscribed topic" right now but we ALL know that is not going to remain the case as AI moves deeper and deeper into society and continues to be more accessible by a larger segment of the population. This precedent has already been replayed a zillion times.

Have you ever read my posts? 

Duh. I'm ALWAYS  'making general statements far beyond their relevance to the comic book industry' on a multitude of topics in every forum of these boards since I first came onto this forum 20 years ago.

Should we then move ALL of my posts into the Watercooler? 

Discussions breathe and grow and trying to put training wheels on everyone is ridiculous. You post off topic all the time, so much so that your posts sometimes make no sense to me. 

This is a conversation about the comic industry. I've always posted in broad terms in every thread I'm in as I believe it's immature and naive to focus on one small aspect of a conversation without considering the greater perspective. 

My mind always works in broad terms while yours seems to always focus on minutia. 

Why YOU would bring topics OUT OF THE WATERCOOLER here, and then ask Moderation to move my thread into the Watercooler is beyond me but it's obvious that you're just trolling like Lazyboy because you both have a history with me and your push to steer this thread into the WC is just another attempt at a troll.

Everyone else is having a genuine conversation. 

 

On 9/5/2023 at 12:47 PM, VintageComics said:

Patience young Padawn. Patience. 

These things take time. 

 

On 9/9/2023 at 9:26 PM, VintageComics said:

I think you missed his point, or at least the point I thought he was making and that is that tech advancements is one of the things driving the obesity and other health problems. 

As tech does more work, Americans are less physically active (making them physically unhealthier), less mentally stimulated (making them dumber) and less need to learn as much making them more incapable of problem solving.

And this is one of the examples of how tech creates unintended consequences.

Yeah, we love tech. It's awesome. I get a supercomputer in my pocket! 

But my kids are dumber, unhealthier and society is falling apart because of it. 

As long as people continue to ignore that there is a postiive AND a negative to everything, the negatives will continue to flourish. 

 

On 9/10/2023 at 9:18 PM, VintageComics said:

Of course there is.

Today, offerings of the highest quality where cost is not an issue are offered to the elite - the wealthy, the military, aerospace, etc. Those industries DEMAND quality first and cost is pretty much irrelevant. 

For the average Joe though, the watered down product for the masses generally leads with consideration of PROFIT first and therefore COST first and quality second but they are led to believe that it's 'almost as good' as the elite's offerings.

This 'almost as good' market, which on a bell curve is where MOST of the volume is going to be is where AI will thrive and there is PLENTY of precedent that supports this. 

---------------

It wasn't like this 70 years ago. There was a time when people cared more about the integrity of their products more than they do today. We've been duped as a society. 

The American automotive industry is the perfect parallel to illustrate my point in this discussion. 

American cars were the pinnacle of American quality until about the 1970's. It was always quality first. They led the world and Detroit was the most powerful industrial city in the world at one time. 

If you drove a Cadillac it meant something. My dad was so proud to get his first Cadillac that when they went to Europe with one in the early 70s everyone thought they were wealthy. They weren't. They were just normal middle class Canadians now, but even a simple old Chevrolet was viewed this way at the time over there. 

When the 1970's hit and tech started to speed up the Big 3 (GM / Ford / Chrysler) used that innovation to cut costs but despite what Lee Iaccoca famously stated, they rested on their laurels and didn't keep the same quality standards. They were instead satisfied to collect profits that simply rode on the coattails of their past glory and shovel inferior products to the masses. They fed you garbage, told you it was caviar and took your money in exchange. 

Why not? It kept shareholders happy, right?

But you can only lie to the public for so long, and what happened was eventually they couldn't hide the lack of quality in their products so a short sighted pump for profits ended up cannibalizing and toppling Detroit from being one of the most powerful cities in the world to a destitute, dystopian gangland in about 20 years. 

By the 2000s you could literally buy an entire neighborhood for what a home used to cost. 

Who stepped in to fill the void? The Asian car manufacturers.

How did they do this? For one, Asian society values personal integrity MUCH more than Western society. They feel dishonored if they don't do everything with integrity. 

THEY RAISED GOOD CHILDREN AND HAD STRONG FAMILY UNITS and those children grew up with strong work ethic and integrity in their work. 

When they came into the West in the 60's and 70's they put out garbage but as American products waned in quality, Asian products INCREASED in quality until they surpassed the American manufacturers. 

Word got out that they put out quality cars over time and  I remember when Toyota became #4 on the tails of TheBbig 3 of GM / Ford / Chrysler and eventually overtook them all.

Toyota is now the #1 manufacturer in the world year after year. 

How did they do it?

The played the long game and kept quality in their vehicles. To this day a 20 or 30 year old Toyota or Honda STILL holds their resale value higher than any mass produced American vehicles from the same era. Internationally these vehicles are so highly sought after that in POOR countries where they can't afford to service these vehicles regularly they are the vehicles of choice and pay a premium for them. 

-------------------------------------

How does that relate to this discussion?

The American Big 3 thought that 'almost good enough" was enough to keep the cash train running but it eventually collapsed like a ponzi scheme.

If publishers and movie companies can use AI to create "almost good enough" products while keep profits high, it will make them money in the short term because most people can't discern. 

But over time the truth will get out. We are already seeing masses complain about story quality as Disney and Warner churn out pure garbage while they greedily take their profits, and the general public isn't buying it.

I'm getting really tired of the short game, personally and refuse to watch much of what Hollywood churns out anymore. I've probably missed 90% of the comic book movies put out in the last 5 years.

AI will be more of the same unless someone with integrity sees the long game and chooses that over the short game. The tech is different but the ideology driving it is just more of the same.

And it will cause a total collapse of an industry unless it's used widely and with artistic integrity. 

We're already seeing it happen in real time as Hollywood begins to topple.

Ironically, Hollywood is the OTHER great American industry after the automotive industry that horrible leadership has ruined. 

Funny how even though they try to slow down the inevitable while milking blood from a stone, NOBODY can escape consequences forever. 

 

On 9/11/2023 at 7:17 PM, VintageComics said:

I saw this coming in the mid 90's when they started using databus systems in the automotive industry to keep track of driver preferences.

That was 30 years ago. 

It was inevitable and became obvious when they started speeding things up and having machines communicate with each other that they'd eventually speed up, meld together and increase in "intelligence".

Trickle down effect.

It came in on the highest end cars (from aerospace and military tech), trickled into the mid range cars and now its been in everyday cars for years. 

Only a matter of time before it's in our bodies. 

 

On 9/11/2023 at 8:02 PM, VintageComics said:

You mean hearing aids? 

Yes, my grandmother had one as I was growing up so well aware of it. 

------------

I meant AI.

Artificial Intelligence will soon by in the body and making independent decisions in a far greater fashion than just binary language like turning a pacemaker on and off and those units will be interacting with things outside the body. 

It's most likely here already as people like Alex Jones who has been written off by post have been talking about it for decades openly but nobody listened or cared because it just hasn't trickled into everyday society yet...but like the automotive industry, it most likely will. 

On the bright side, we'll be able to download comics wireless, so there's that.

 

 

On 10/4/2023 at 9:12 PM, VintageComics said:

This thread was NOT created to air beefs and your attempts to paint it as such is just you attempting yet again to derail a perfectly reasonable and spirited discussion between people who have no idea what you're talking about.

You've been reading my posts for 20 years. NOTHING has changed about them except that 3 years ago, everyone started caring more about what I post. 

What is ironic is that you continue to question everyone else but nobody can question you, even though you've been more wrong than right over the 20 years I've known you.

You keep attempting to lock or move my threads and just quash the discussion rather than play fair and just have a reasonable, respectful discussion. 

Stop it. 

 

On 10/5/2023 at 9:34 PM, VintageComics said:

namisgr has a history of trying to control narratives that oppose him, control threads and even control what people post.

He has CONSTANTLY called me out for posting something "off topic" in a thread over the last 3 years, but then he'd go INTO THAT SAME THREAD AND POST OFF TOPICS POSTS HIMSELF.

I've publicly pointed it out many times. 

And for some reason, over the last month he is constantly critiquing which of MY posts or threads belong and which don't. 

Do you think he has another agenda other than discussion? 

 

 

If you click on all the links to all of my points that you copied and posted, you'll see that all of my posts were used as either parallels or examples to strengthen points germane to this thread. 

In fact, every reply you pasted was a reply TO ANOTHER PERSON. Not you.

Some of the posts you linked Mike has even already said were OK. 

So the REAL question is why are you constantly trying to control what others say?  

Why are you so concerned about the integrity of Comics General all of a sudden.

If you don't like the thread, the best thing for everyone is to just stay out of it.

 

[CGC Mike]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:57 PM, VintageComics said:

Which one of my posts was problematic?

Perhaps, you should ask AI.  Seriously, I stand by my last post.  Either get back on topic or I will lock the thread.  

[VintageComics]

On 10/11/2023 at 10:05 PM, CGC Mike said:

Perhaps, you should ask AI.  Seriously, I stand by my last post.  Either get back on topic or I will lock the thread.  

So, you're saying #followtherules or get cancelled?

Got it. 

[Microchip]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:30 PM, CAHokie said:

As I said in the writer’s strike thread, just because something can be done cheaper and easier doesn’t mean it should.
 

Extras in movies/tv are some of the most “interesting” people I have ever met. Take that how you will. They do serve a function though. They create realism and an atmosphere. If you replace them with AI figures then the talent is essentially doing an entire movie in green screen. Sure, that’s fine for certain types of movies but I think it would really change the performance in others. Some will balk at doing it.

There will be ramifications yet to be seen or imagined.   The impact of AI will be across the board in the movie business/(defacto comic worlds) for years to come.   But I see it as static edition, it can "create", but I think that should be replaced with replicate.   

Lately we've seen a backward trend on the quality of movies brought to the market.   There's a lot of reasons for that.   Will AI be the sole vector that changes that trend?   My take is a firm no.

[VintageComics]

On 10/17/2023 at 1:44 AM, Microchip said:

Lately we've seen a backward trend on the quality of movies brought to the market.   There's a lot of reasons for that.   Will AI be the sole vector that changes that trend?   My take is a firm no.

The consensus in this discussion seems to be that AI will make all forms of art worse rather than better, mainly because it can't create anything new or unique (yet ) and only the upper echelon of creators will be able to outdo it, making the majority of art that'll be created and released to the public...mediocre at best, if it's created using AI. 

But the main reason comics (or movies) are so poorly accepted is because they're not creating 'new art'. They're either rehashing old ideas or trying to conform to an ideal rather than just tell an original story. 

Every once in a while, some new, original story comes around and I swear, it's like a breath of fresh air. 

You all know the feeling.

It's like the first time you see a previously unused cover for a Marvel SA comic that appears on the cover of the mid 60s Marvel Tales issues or when I saw the alternate cover for ASM #194 (1st Black Cat).

I don't get that feeling anymore with most of the new stuff anymore. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by VintageComics

[Get Marwood & I]

[VintageComics]

On 10/17/2023 at 1:44 AM, Microchip said:

There will be ramifications yet to be seen or imagined.   The impact of AI will be across the board in the movie business/(defacto comic worlds) for years to come.   But I see it as static edition, it can "create", but I think that should be replaced with replicate.   

I continue to think about this, and while I'm out and about and running errands, I tend to keep my ears open and I continue to hear people talking about AI in every space. 

And while we always have many great minds working on problems, in much the same way that 100 years ago after the creation of the automobile, nobody could foresee things like drunk driving, the climate change debate, leaving fossil fuels behind or all the other negatives associated with the car I really don't think we can comprehend what's coming yet.

 

AI works by exhaustively looking for information from the real world.

As new information comes to light through human discovery, AI's ability to solve problems will continue increase faster than human ability to increase problem solving. 

AI is basically like a "go, no go" puzzle operating at light speed. It continually pushes for information or answers, or NEW information and NEW answers. 

The thing is, in much the same we that we can't prepare for every eventuality, we can't possibly understand the implication of how it's going to function months or years from now. 

For example, I'll bet nobody could foresee that scientists would be using AI to understand bats.

Well, they did just that and with such accuracy, that they can actually distinguish between the SPECIES of bat as well as the DIALECT FAMILY the bat comes from. 

Yeah, you heard that right. They can now differentiate between BAT DIALECTS within a species. 

When you start to think of the endless possibilities, and how quickly information now moves, it's almost impossible to know where we'll be in a year or 5 years from now with AI.

But I am pretty sure we'll be in a place nobody envisioned. 

-----------------------------

On a side note and directly related to how and why AI is able to be utilized, this violinist's video illustrates what I was speaking about a few weeks ago when I stated that MOST people can't tell the difference between something mediocre and something great. 

Joshua Bell is a world famous violinist (and apparently one of the world's best). He stood in a NYC subway playing an (apparently) extremely difficult violin piece.

He made about $30 in tips and got some applause.