The Comics Lore Unpopular Opinion Thread 2 2

[lizards2]

Frank Miller ruined Daredevil.

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/19/2023 at 6:59 PM, lizards2 said:

Frank Miller ruined Daredevil.

There was a lot of boring drek in the title for years before he started.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:42 PM, MAR1979 said:

his Invaders is nice for those for those that prefer their heroes too look as if in middle off heroin withdrawal.

Often noted that Robbins' faces could look more than a little too gaunt.

[ConcreteMob181]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:40 AM, Ken Aldred said:

I've never really liked any of Loeb and Sale's Batman mini-series. Or, Superman For All Seasons.

This is really interesting. I really dug Long Halloween but, after reading everyone’s comments I remembered that the last time I read it was about 12 years ago. I remember liking that it was a true detective story and got into the nitty gritty on the Gotham mob. But maybe it wouldn’t hold up on a re-read today. I will have to give it another look. When it comes to Batman I think Year One and Dark Knight Returns hold up well. I think Killing Joke is overrated although there are parts I like. I also quite enjoyed Morrison’s Arkham Asylum and Son of the Demon. I’d be curious to know folks’ opinion on other overrated and underrated Batman books.

[Ryan.]

On 9/19/2023 at 12:07 PM, Ken Aldred said:

 tarot cards and levels of creation, an entire issue of the mysticism of tantric sex, and lots more interminable, pretentious metaphysics

My three favorite things!

[Lazyboy]

On 9/19/2023 at 1:13 PM, Ken Aldred said:

On 9/19/2023 at 12:59 PM, lizards2 said:

Frank Miller ruined Daredevil.

There was a lot of boring drek in the title for years before he started.

Yeah, that's an interesting take since Miller literally saved Daredevil from cancellation.

[Lazyboy]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:25 AM, Gonzimodo said:

My unpopular opinion was going to be that all of Loeb's Batman work, especially The Long Halloween and Hush, is overrated garbage. I just don't understand why so many people seem to love those two stories in particular.  

I can't agree with the garbage part, but neither can I disagree with the overrated part.

[Readcomix]

On 9/14/2023 at 8:45 AM, davidpg said:

He really did tone down the Schomburg cover for the Invaders Giant Size 1.  Imagine that cover if someone else had worked it?  It would be a classic, huge book.

Did Robbins ink that? If so, that explains a lot. How the heck did Stan allow anyone not named Joe Sinnott to touch Schomburg’s last cover??? 

[Readcomix]

On 9/14/2023 at 10:30 AM, Kramerica said:

8. People who really, truly believe the Earth is flat are dangerous and should not be able to hold a drivers license or vote. They should also probably be under house arrest.

Well, duh.

They might drive off the edge.

[Kramerica]

On 9/19/2023 at 6:02 PM, Readcomix said:

Well, duh.

They might drive off the edge.

Well played.

And I might be OK with that instance of poetic justice.

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:58 AM, Readcomix said:

Did Robbins ink that? If so, that explains a lot. How the heck did Stan allow anyone not named Joe Sinnott to touch Schomburg’s last cover??? 

Schomburg did the cover to Invaders Annual 1.

Robbins did the Giant-Size.

[Readcomix]

On 9/20/2023 at 6:58 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Schomburg did the cover to Invaders Annual 1.

Robbins did the Giant-Size.

Thanks Ken; I knew both those things but somehow read OP’s post as Annual 1, not Giant-Size. So I thought the implication was that Robbins inked Schomburg on the annual. 

[rlextherobot]

On 9/14/2023 at 7:30 AM, Kramerica said:

 

3. Jack Kirby is hugely overrated. His art is terrible and his writing even worse.

4. Black Sabbath was better with Ronnie James Dio than Ozzy Osbourne. Osbourne is a hack who - along with his Witch Wife - has taken credit and basically stolen all of the contributions of everyone associated with his solo career.

Man I've never seen a statement I violently disagree with right next to one I would vote for if it was running for President right next to each other like that.

Leaving aside your thoughts on Kirby (you monster), Heaven and Hell is by far my favourite Sabbath album, in large part thanks to Dio's incredible vocal presence and charisma. I don't hate Ozzy, but I also don't feel moved by anything he does, whereas RJD makes me emotional, excited, energized. So blessed to have seen the Heaven and Hell tour before Ronnie passed, the performances of Falling off the Edge of the World and Heaven and Hell from that show will live forever in my heart.

A few years back I won a free sketch from Daniel Warren Johnson. I chose Dio as my subject.

[Gonzimodo]

On 9/19/2023 at 7:14 PM, Lazyboy said:

I can't agree with the garbage part, but neither can I disagree with the overrated part.

Yeah, "garbage" is probably too harsh.  It's obviously many orders of magnitude better than anything I could ever produce.  

I just remember buying the TPB of Long Halloween and getting more and more frustrated and disappointed as I read it.  It was very underwhelming to me and did not live up to the hype at all.  Obviously, most people would disagree, but that's why it belongs here, right?  

I wonder if it's one of those stories that just worked better in monthly installments than it does as a binge read. 

[Cimm]

Unpopular opinion.... super-heroes hold the comic book artform back from what it could have been/could become. 90% of my collection is non-hero related.

[Kramerica]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:05 AM, rlextherobot said:

Man I've never seen a statement I violently disagree with right next to one I would vote for if it was running for President right next to each other like that.

Leaving aside your thoughts on Kirby (you monster), Heaven and Hell is by far my favourite Sabbath album, in large part thanks to Dio's incredible vocal presence and charisma. I don't hate Ozzy, but I also don't feel moved by anything he does, whereas RJD makes me emotional, excited, energized. So blessed to have seen the Heaven and Hell tour before Ronnie passed, the performances of Falling off the Edge of the World and Heaven and Hell from that show will live forever in my heart.

And that is why it's in the unpopular opinion post. But your statement on Dio couldn't have been more on point. RJD was a breath of fresh air to Black Sabbath. Everything about the band had been transformed into a raging behemoth that responded to the youngsters that "this is how it's done". Good things often come in small and measured packages and the two albums that we received from the Dio-era Sabbath not only surpassed anything that had come before it in Sabbath but everything that had come before in Heavy Music altogether.

That is an awesome sketch  indeed.

But back to the comics aspect....yeah Kirby...meh. And when he was writing too? Not good in my opinion.

[buttock]

On 9/13/2023 at 8:19 AM, valiantman said:

I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or just one that most people have never thought about...

The average grade for surviving raw (and graded) comic books from 1933 to 1999 is nearly always the year divided by 10 (or lower).

Surviving comics from 1938 always average 3.8 or lower. Surviving comics from 1965 always average 6.5 or lower.  Surviving comics from 1979 are always 7.9 or lower. Surviving comics from 1992 always average 9.2 or lower.

It doesn't seem like that would be true because calculated CGC averages are often higher, but CGC grading is only done with copies "worth sending to CGC"... not every surviving copy.

Generally speaking, if you want an above average book in your collection, just get one that's higher grade than the year.  (Higher than 3.8 for 1938, higher than 6.5 for 1965, higher than 9.2 for 1992, etc.)

Interesting.  Are there years that drop off of the curve?  I could see the 1950s having some outliers. 

[valiantman]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:21 PM, buttock said:

Interesting.  Are there years that drop off of the curve?  I could see the 1950s having some outliers. 

I don't think it's necessary to have at least a CGC 6.5 to have an above average copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 (1962).  A universal CGC 3.5 is probably always going to be average on Amazing Fantasy #15, so everything from CGC 4.0 to CGC 6.0 would also be above average (besides everything 6.2 or higher since the book is from 1962).

If there are books that primarily survived as part of high grade warehouse/file copies, then above average would probably need to be higher than the year, but generally speaking, those situations (like Gaines copies of E.C. Comics) still work fairly well with the "above the year" grade guidance.  Shock SuspenStories #1 (1952) has 170 CGC universal graded copies and averages 5.9.  There are multiple copies of CGC 9.8 and even a CGC 9.9 for this book. We would predict 5.2 (or CGC 5.5) as the line for average, so CGC 6.0 would be predicted to be above average.

Mad #22 (1955) has an average CGC universal grade of 7.0, so it doesn't match the expectation, but there may be lots of raw copies ungraded that would bring the average down and a graded 7.0 is not significantly different than a graded 6.0, if you're trying to get above 5.5 (for 1955).

Heroes, Inc. Presents Cannon (1969) is definitely an outlier (basically 100% warehouse copies), since CGC 7.0 is at the bottom of the CGC census even though 7.0 is higher than 6.9 (1969).  Who knows how many copies are raw... but it would take hundreds of lower graded copies to be CGC graded to significantly pull the CGC average down from the current 9.47.

Edited September 20, 2023 by valiantman

[buttock]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:12 PM, valiantman said:

I don't think it's necessary to have at least a CGC 6.5 to have an above average copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 (1962).  A universal CGC 3.5 is probably always going to be average on Amazing Fantasy #15, so everything from CGC 4.0 to CGC 6.0 would also be above average (besides everything 6.2 or higher since the book is from 1962).

If there are books that primarily survived as part of high grade warehouse/file copies, then above average would probably need to be higher than the year, but generally speaking, those situations (like Gaines copies of E.C. Comics) still work fairly well with the "above the year" grade guidance.  Shock SuspenStories #1 (1952) has 170 CGC universal graded copies and averages 5.9.  There are multiple copies of CGC 9.8 and even a CGC 9.9 for this book. We would predict 5.2 (or CGC 5.5) as the line for average, so CGC 6.0 would be predicted to be above average.

Mad #22 (1955) has an average CGC universal grade of 7.0, so it doesn't match the expectation, but there may be lots of raw copies ungraded that would bring the average down and a graded 7.0 is not significantly different than a graded 6.0, if you're trying to get above 5.5 (for 1955).

Heroes, Inc. Presents Cannon (1969) is definitely an outlier (basically 100% warehouse copies), since CGC 7.0 is at the bottom of the CGC census even though 7.0 is higher than 6.9 (1969).  Who knows how many copies are raw... but it would take hundreds of lower graded copies to be CGC graded to significantly pull the CGC average down from the current 9.47.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear.  I'm curious if there are whole years where you see a deviation.  Paper quality really declined in the 1950s, so presumably books as a whole from that era might not be as well-preserved. 

[valiantman]

On 9/20/2023 at 2:38 PM, buttock said:

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear.  I'm curious if there are whole years where you see a deviation.  Paper quality really declined in the 1950s, so presumably books as a whole from that era might not be as well-preserved. 

Anything "not worth submitting to CGC" is likely to pull down the CGC average if we could get every existing copy graded. We should expect most raw books existing after the 1960s to still be "not worth submitting to CGC".

Edited September 20, 2023 by valiantman