Heritage Auction 2 2

[KirbyCollector]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:42 AM, batman_fan said:

It is impossible to know with any degree of certainty what was in the mind of who drew this so I am not going to do any mental gymnastics to justify it.  I just have to look at it and draw my conclusion it is racist.  When it was drawn doesn’t matter, what people deemed “acceptable” doesn’t matter, it is still racist.

Placing something in historical context is not justification. American society was a racist society in 1941, period. Jim Crow was in full effect in the South; interracial marriage was banned in most of the country; redlining and job discrimination were practiced everywhere. The most popular black radio character at the time -- Rochester, the butler on the Jack Benny Show -- was performed by black actor Eddie Anderson in dialect. Kirby had a choice and chose to draw Jones in this manner, sadly, but it is not a surprise he did so.

Edited September 27, 2023 by KirbyCollector

[Bronty]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:20 AM, batman_fan said:

So you don't think this is racist?

You're moving on the goalposts on me Greg.   We were talking about the way the character was drawn, and now you're bringing the dialogue into it - those are two separate things.

That being said if the character was a fat Italian with a giant bowl of pasta who lives at home with his mother, would it be any different?

At the end of the day, you're probably right, but I draw a line between something that's a racial stereotype - and something that's racist.     Stereotyping is basically racial profiling.   There's some truth there - Italians do tend to like pasta, black people do tend to like watermelon (who doesn't?) and Irish people tend to not mind a pint (cheers!).   In my view racism is more about prejudice - judging someone based on their ethnic profile and assuming that those generalizations apply before you've even gotten to know them.    Its the difference between understanding that Irish people generally don't mind a pint and assuming that an Irish person you just met is a drunk.

I.e.  there is a difference between accepting that generalizations start from a seed of truth and pre judging someone just because of their race/skin color/country they were born in.    Granted, its a very slippery slope.

(Before you post any more panels, I'm not familiar with the character, you seem to be and maybe that's one of the reasons for your strong feelings on it.    For my part, I've seen the two panels you've posted and that's it, but I have an opinion and my opinion is that a stereotype (and by extension the author or artist making use of a stereotype in a story) is not racist in and of itself no matter what character we are talking about.   If that wasn't the case then an Asian character that is good at math is a racist character.    I just don't buy that).

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Bronty

[Bronty]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:17 AM, KirbyCollector said:

 American society The world was a racist society in 1941, period.

fixed

[batman_fan]

On 9/27/2023 at 7:33 AM, Bronty said:

You're moving on the goalposts on me Greg.   We were talking about the way the character was drawn, and now you're bringing the dialogue into it - those are two separate things.

That being said if the character was a fat Italian with a giant bowl of pasta who lives at home with his mother, would it be any different?

At the end of the day, you're probably right, but I draw a line between something that's a racial stereotype - and something that's racist.     Stereotyping is basically racial profiling.   There's some truth there - Italians do tend to like pasta, black people do tend to like watermelon (who doesn't?) and Irish people tend to not mind a pint (cheers!).   In my view racism is more about prejudice - judging someone based on their ethnic profile and assuming that those generalizations apply before you've even gotten to know them.    Its the difference between understanding that Irish people generally don't mind a pint and assuming that an Irish person you just met is a drunk.

I.e.  there is a difference between accepting that generalizations start from a seed of truth and pre judging someone just because of their race/skin color/country they were born in.    Granted, its a very slippery slope.

(Before you post any more panels, I'm not familiar with the character, you seem to be and maybe that's one of the reasons for your strong feelings on it.    For my part, I've seen the two panels you've posted and that's it, but I have an opinion and my opinion is that a stereotype (and by extension the author or artist making use of a stereotype in a story) is not racist in and of itself no matter what character we are talking about. ).

 

All I can say to your post is just wow, no matter how far we have come we still have a LONG way to go.  This thread has been very eye opening to me.

[Bronty]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:05 AM, batman_fan said:

All I can say to your post is just wow, no matter how far we have come we still have a LONG way to go.  This thread has been very eye opening to me.

How's the view from your high horse?   I took the time to explain my position.    Your response is disappointing.

[batman_fan]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:07 AM, Bronty said:

How's the view from your high horse?   I took the time to explain my position.    Your response is disappointing.

I probably have a very different perspective that’s you.  My wife is black, my son is black.  Watching people jump through mental gymnastics to play the “yeah but” game is disappointing versus just saying, yes, it is racist.  You say I am moving the goal post which I am not.  I did not limit my statement to “how the character was drawn”.  Everything about the character was racist.  You jump to what aboutism.  If someone drew a character with racist tropes, it is racist.  I don’t care if it is someone who is Irish to Italian.  Similarly a lot of Timely’s have racist representation of Asians.  I don’t need to jump through the a bunch of hoops say “yeah but the war” or “maybe their editor held a gun to their head and made them draw it”.  You can have what ever opinion you want and you can express it in any way you want.  I myself am just very surprised to see yours and others opinion.

[Bronty]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:08 AM, batman_fan said:

The artwork is pretty interesting plus it has the super racist image in the top panel.  

The discussion did in fact begin with how the character was drawn.

I understand your perspective, its more personal to you and that's no surprise given what you've told me.  

For my part, I was born in Europe and I live in Canada.   I don't carry the same kind of baggage about black and white that many Americans seem to.   

 

[KirbyCollector]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:26 AM, batman_fan said:

I don’t need to jump through the a bunch of hoops say “yeah but the war” or “maybe their editor held a gun to their head and made them draw it”.

Yes, the image is racist, period. What is wrong with a discussion about it? The way we recognize progress is to contextualize the past, understand why things were the way they were. We no longer live in a society where the majority of people exist in ethnic and racist paradigms as it was in 1941. Jack Kirby grew up as Jacob Kurtzberg fighting other ethnic groups in the streets -- groups who hated him for being a Jew as fiercely as he hated them for being Irish or Polish. I have no doubt he probably held racist views about blacks, as most did at that time. It is ironic that he would change his name (as many Jewish comics creators did, such as Joe Simon, Stan Lee, Bob Kane, etc) to get past anti-Semitism, yet choose to then draw blacks in the manner he did. Was he aware of this when he put his pencil to the page? No interview of him touches on this issue, yet this art is part of his legacy -- so I believe it should be discussed and understood.

I am glad we no longer live in Jack's society in 1941. Are things perfect? No. Are they getting better? Yes, as people age and older views fade and die with them. I worked for an organization which discriminated against all minorities and women until the 70s. It was a source of pride for me to work alongside and promote those who had once been denied entry, and that pride came because I understood what took place before me. Let's not close off discussion which can help educate.

[fsumavila]

I don't know guys, but I think this is a new record for the derailing of a Heritage auction thread.

Edited September 27, 2023 by fsumavila

[alxjhnsn]

There are a bunch of different questions here. I'll try to capture them with my answer:

Is the image a racist stereotype - yes.
Is the dialog a racist stereotype - yes.

Was Jack Kirby a racist when drawing them? I don't know. I doubt that we will ever know.

Was Jack Kirby a racist all/most of his life? Again, I don't know and doubt that we will ever know, but I think he out grew it. His portrayal of the Black Panther and the Black Racer certainly violated the racist stereotype. 

[batman_fan]

On 9/27/2023 at 1:25 PM, alxjhnsn said:

There are a bunch of different questions here. I'll try to capture them with my answer:

Is the image a racist stereotype - yes.
Is the dialog a racist stereotype - yes.

Was Jack Kirby a racist when drawing them? I don't know. I doubt that we will ever know.

Was Jack Kirby a racist all/most of his life? Again, I don't know and doubt that we will ever know, but I think he out grew it. His portrayal of the Black Panther and the Black Racer certainly violated the racist stereotype. 

I have a similar view

[Rick2you2]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:25 PM, alxjhnsn said:

There are a bunch of different questions here. I'll try to capture them with my answer:

Is the image a racist stereotype - yes.
Is the dialog a racist stereotype - yes.

Was Jack Kirby a racist when drawing them? I don't know. I doubt that we will ever know.

Was Jack Kirby a racist all/most of his life? Again, I don't know and doubt that we will ever know, but I think he out grew it. His portrayal of the Black Panther and the Black Racer certainly violated the racist stereotype. 

Frankly, I think he must have been racist, but the more pertinent question is how racist was he and how did he act because of it. That was the generation he was from, and racism was acceptable. But that doesn’t mean he was actively engaged in discriminatory behavior or harbored real ill will against blacks. Permit me to offer an example: my mother. My mother was an educated woman. She went to college and had all her credits for a Masters degree in pure math at Columbia. Our family had friends around the world due to my father’s work. She also believed that everyone should be treated equally, of course blacks should vote, and they were deserving of fair treatment. One day, in my early teens, I was discussing something with my mother about race relations, and she said all of those right things—but then she added a caveat. She wouldn’t want a black family living next door because the neighbors’ kids might be playing under the sprinkler or in a pool and she would see their black, naked bodies. My reaction was “huh”, and when I later mentioned it to my father he didn’t believe it. Let me add that I never saw her do anything discriminatory either. 

Racism, like anti-semitism has gradients. If you ever see the movie Gentleman’s Agreement with Gregory Peck, you will know what I mean. 

Kirby was of that generation. It was as surely a part of his DNA as it was in my mother. But that doesn’t mean he personally acted badly towards blacks. Or that he wouldn’t have supported their right to vote or stand up for themselves—like T’Challa. World War 2 was a real eye opener for soldiers—black people dying for their country just like whites. His racism would be the more passive variety, allowing him to draw Whitewash like that instead of, say, making Whitewash look like Bill Robinson. That’s what people wanted to buy in the comics, like the Blackhawk Chop-Chop. So, that’s what we have.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Rick2you2

[alxjhnsn]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:31 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Frankly, I think he must have been racist, but the more pertinent question is how racist was he and how did he act because of it. That was the generation he was from, and racism was acceptable. But that doesn’t mean he was actively engaged in discriminatory behavior or harbored real ill will against blacks. Permit me to offer an example: my mother. My mother was an educated woman. She went to college and had all her credits for a Masters degree in pure math at Columbia. Our family had friends around the world due to my father’s work. She also believed that everyone should be treated equally, of course blacks should vote, and they were deserving of fair treatment. One day, in my early teens, I was discussing something with my mother about race relations, and she said all of those right things—but then she added a caveat. She wouldn’t want a black family living next door because the neighbors’ kids might be playing under the sprinkler or in a pool and she would see their black, naked bodies. My reaction was “huh”, and when I later mentioned it to my father he didn’t believe it. Let me add that I never saw her do anything discriminatory either. 

Racism, like anti-semitism has gradients. If you ever see the movie Gentleman’s Agreement with Gregory Peck, you will know what I mean. 

Kirby was of that generation. It was as surely a part of his DNA as it was in my mother. But that doesn’t mean he personally acted badly towards blacks. Or that he wouldn’t have supported their right to vote or stand up for themselves—like T’Challa. World War 2 was a real eye opener for soldiers—black people dying for their country just like whites. His racism would be the more passive variety, allowing him to draw Whitewash like that instead of, say, making Whitewash look like Bill Robinson. That’s what people wanted to buy in the comics, like the Blackhawk Chop-Chop. So, that’s what we have.

Rick, I had a similar experience with my mom.

I lived in the town where I went to college. A girl I liked was a member of the Baptist Student Union. For some long forgotten reason, I invited them to hold a meeting at my place. One of the kids was Black. Never occurred to me to mention it to my folks.

At some point during the evening, I was away from the group with my mom. She said, "Why didn't you tell me there would a black person?" I said, "It never occurred to me to mention it. Is there a problem?" She said, "No, I was just surprised."

Not so long after, a good friend in the neighborhood sold their house to a black family. She had no problem with it "so long as they kept the yard mown and the house painted." I think she'd have felt the same way if they were next door.

Still, occasionally, she will say something that surprises me on a racial topic.

TL;DR, people are complicated and seldom all one thing.

[batman_fan]

This image is finally up.  One of the better panel pages from the issue in my opinion.

[batman_fan]

They have this one listed as 1960 versus 1970, hopefully they correct it.  I like it even thought it is getting late for my collecting interest.

[batman_fan]

I like Kubert and this cover really hits what I like best from the titles he worked on.

[Bronty]

On 9/29/2023 at 1:33 PM, batman_fan said:

This image is finally up.  One of the better panel pages from the issue in my opinion.

That's very memorable.   The bottom half of the page is terrific.

[Xatari]

Wow! Any guesses on hammer? $200k?

[MrBedrock]

On 9/25/2023 at 3:18 PM, newshane said:

Make sure to state rules for the thread so we know what's okay to talk about and what isn't. 

I mean, I would hate to drain your energy by having you explain the search function to me again. 

WTTB

[Bronty]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:47 AM, Xatari said:

Wow! Any guesses on hammer? $200k?

seems reasonable to me