Heritage Auction 2 2

[tth2]

I'd like to propose that we just run one continuing thread on Heritage auctions instead of starting a separate thread for each auction.

[tth2]

Just looked at the preview of the November Signature Auction and there is a TON of Sandman art.  Looks like someone is unloading their collection.

[Will_K]

Kind of disagree re: creating a single HA thread.  And can't really be "enforced".  However, a simple thing to improve all the HA topics... include HA's official "Auction #" and/or auction dates.

In CGC's Comics Events forum, they do a good job of putting the comic show's name and dates in the topic's title.

[tth2]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:15 PM, Will_K said:

Kind of disagree re: creating a single HA thread.  And can't really be "enforced".  However, a simple thing to improve all the HA topics... include HA's official "Auction #" and/or auction dates.

In CGC's Comics Events forum, they do a good job of putting the comic show's name and dates in the topic's title.

Nothing can be enforced, of course, but in the GA Forum, for example, most of the discussion of Heritage auctions is now mostly consolidated in a single continuing thread.

Up to people whether they want to post in here or not,.

[tth2]

This is pretty amazing, a Simon & Kirby page from Captain America #5 from 1941.  Unfortunately no images of any character in costume and no image of Cap in or out of costume.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/joe-simon-and-jack-kirby-captain-america-comics-5-story-page-6-original-art-timely-marvel-/p/7342-66002.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

[batman_fan]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:23 AM, tth2 said:

This is pretty amazing, a Simon & Kirby page from Captain America #5 from 1941.  Unfortunately no images of any character in costume and no image of Cap in or out of costume.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/joe-simon-and-jack-kirby-captain-america-comics-5-story-page-6-original-art-timely-marvel-/p/7342-66002.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

The artwork is pretty interesting plus it has the super racist image in the top panel.  Will be interesting to see where it goes

[cstojano]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:08 AM, batman_fan said:

The artwork is pretty interesting plus it has the super racist image in the top panel.  Will be interesting to see where it goes

At first I thought you were right, then I wondered how you are meant to depict someone of African descent in a comic, then I decided it would be done by the colorist and not the inker. 

 

Or...is this actually a kid in blackface??

[cloud cloddie]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:15 AM, Will_K said:

Kind of disagree re: creating a single HA thread.  And can't really be "enforced".  However, a simple thing to improve all the HA topics... include HA's official "Auction #" and/or auction dates.

Yeah, it seems like every HA thread gets OT AF at some point. I like getting the reset of a new auction thread. Agree with putting the auction dates in the thread title. 

[Rick2you2]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:47 AM, cstojano said:

At first I thought you were right, then I wondered how you are meant to depict someone of African descent in a comic, then I decided it would be done by the colorist and not the inker. 

 

Or...is this actually a kid in blackface??

Don’t forget the pop-eyes. Maybe the Spirit’s l’ll buddy took a side gig.

[batman_fan]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:47 AM, cstojano said:

At first I thought you were right, then I wondered how you are meant to depict someone of African descent in a comic, then I decided it would be done by the colorist and not the inker. 

 

Or...is this actually a kid in blackface??

The character is Whitewash Jones, a black character that mapped into every black stereo type of the times

Whitewash Jones

[newshane]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:04 AM, tth2 said:

I'd like to propose that we just run one continuing thread on Heritage auctions instead of starting a separate thread for each auction.

Make sure to state rules for the thread so we know what's okay to talk about and what isn't. 

I mean, I would hate to drain your energy by having you explain the search function to me again. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/25/2023 at 12:13 PM, batman_fan said:

The character is Whitewash Jones, a black character that mapped into every black stereo type of the times

Whitewash Jones

Whitewash Jones's character is pretty helpful. I don't understand the point of that article, I'm sure they're trying to paint the fact that every single person in the 1940s was racist - but he kinds of misses on the topic.

1. If the writers/pencillers/inkers/colorists were the rampant racist demon dogs that the author wishfully thinks they were, why is Whitewash Jones portrayed as someone who keeps his friends from getting harmed and poisoned?

2. The fact that black people were not drawn often by artists, they likely had to use existing reference material to supplement their own stereotypical concepts of drawing them. I once had to draw a couple of Asian kids for a project, and if I didn't have Google to find references to their facial structure - and simply used my own memory of the one-or-two Asian kids I've met in my entire lifetime, it would have looked like a racist drawing to some numbnut "critic" having a look at my work. Not knowing how to draw something correctly does not make you a racist.

This would also likely apply to the vernacular Whitewash Jones - something Marvel used in canon. Modern representation of Whitewash Jones (Who now goes as Washington Jones) states in a comic referencing his previous adventures in the Young Allies and how he was portrayed: "You could tell that those writers have never been uptown". (the whole character of Whitewash Jones is very meta). It wasn't that they meant to portray him in a negative light, it's that they didn't have much to go on - but went forth with a story showing that a black kid could help out his team mates. While most people in this day-and-age love to label that as Boomer Racism, I actually think it's pretty cool they wanted to work a character like that into comics.

3. Adding to #2, it's totally clear that the artist struggled with Whitewash Jones because he is not practiced at drawing black people. His "white folks" look finely rendered. To suggest it's "racist" without understanding the process seems pretty ignorant. Jumping to a conclusion about someone's intent based on their skin color without doing any more investigating into the reasoning? White guys drawing black people poorly because their racists? Yeah, I love it when people who call out racism use the same mode of thinking that racists use. 

I'm not saying there wasn't segregation or racism in that era, but there are times where the explanation is a lot more simple than racism.

[batman_fan]

On 9/25/2023 at 3:40 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Whitewash Jones's character is pretty helpful. I don't understand the point of that article, I'm sure they're trying to paint the fact that every single person in the 1940s was racist - but he kinds of misses on the topic.

1. If the writers/pencillers/inkers/colorists were the rampant racist demon dogs that the author wishfully thinks they were, why is Whitewash Jones portrayed as someone who keeps his friends from getting harmed and poisoned?

2. The fact that black people were not drawn often by artists, they likely had to use existing reference material to supplement their own stereotypical concepts of drawing them. I once had to draw a couple of Asian kids for a project, and if I didn't have Google to find references to their facial structure - and simply used my own memory of the one-or-two Asian kids I've met in my entire lifetime, it would have looked like a racist drawing to some numbnut "critic" having a look at my work. Not knowing how to draw something correctly does not make you a racist.

This would also likely apply to the vernacular Whitewash Jones - something Marvel used in canon. Modern representation of Whitewash Jones (Who now goes as Washington Jones) states in a comic referencing his previous adventures in the Young Allies and how he was portrayed: "You could tell that those writers have never been uptown". (the whole character of Whitewash Jones is very meta). It wasn't that they meant to portray him in a negative light, it's that they didn't have much to go on - but went forth with a story showing that a black kid could help out his team mates. While most people in this day-and-age love to label that as Boomer Racism, I actually think it's pretty cool they wanted to work a character like that into comics.

3. Adding to #2, it's totally clear that the artist struggled with Whitewash Jones because he is not practiced at drawing black people. His "white folks" look finely rendered. To suggest it's "racist" without understanding the process seems pretty ignorant. Jumping to a conclusion about someone's intent based on their skin color without doing any more investigating into the reasoning? White guys drawing black people poorly because their racists? Yeah, I love it when people who call out racism use the same mode of thinking that racists use. 

I'm not saying there wasn't segregation or racism in that era, but there are times where the explanation is a lot more simple than racism.

I have no idea where you are from but definitely glad I am not living near you.

[tth2]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:18 AM, newshane said:

Make sure to state rules for the thread so we know what's okay to talk about and what isn't. 

I mean, I would hate to drain your energy by having you explain the search function to me again. 

Bitter much?

[batman_fan]

There is a bunch of stuff coming up that I am interested in.  It seems like Heritage has a never ending stream of material coming to auction.  I hope prices are depressed.

[tth2]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:38 AM, batman_fan said:

There is a bunch of stuff coming up that I am interested in.  It seems like Heritage has a never ending stream of material coming to auction.  I hope prices are depressed.

Same.   Between the alleged bursting of the Covid bubble, a recession that has been about to hit us any day now (for a year and counting), and the depressed Euro and Pound which should suppress demand from our friends across the pond, bargains should be everywhere but they never seem to be anywhere to be found.

[Bronty]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:18 PM, batman_fan said:

I have no idea where you are from but definitely glad I am not living near you.

I dunno.   I mean the character is certainly drawn in a racially stereotypical way.   But are stereotypes racist per se?   I’m not sure.    I can drawn an Irish kid as a leprechaun to exaggerate the idea he’s Irish.   Is that racist in and of itself?   It’s a pretty fine line but it’s not as though it’s a slam dunk in either direction IMO.   

[batman_fan]

On 9/26/2023 at 9:33 PM, Bronty said:

I dunno.   I mean the character is certainly drawn in a racially stereotypical way.   But are stereotypes racist per se?   I’m not sure.    I can drawn an Irish kid as a leprechaun to exaggerate the idea he’s Irish.   Is that racist in and of itself?   It’s a pretty fine line but it’s not as though it’s a slam dunk in either direction IMO.   

So you don't think this is racist?

[KirbyCollector]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:20 AM, batman_fan said:

So you don't think this is racist?

This is undoubtably racist, and we know this because there were comic strip and comic book artists contemporaneous to Kirby who did NOT depict black people in this manner. The question us, did he do this on his own or at the behest of an editor? Black characters at this time were largely used for comic relief, thus the use of stereotypical/racist features and language as they were perceived by white audiences as "funnier." It is entirely plausible Kirby was forced to draw like this to achieve an editorial aim -- and considering how small the industry was at the time, and how hard work was to come by, he may have done it out of necessity for his career. It's shameful but understandable in the context of the time period.

[batman_fan]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:37 AM, KirbyCollector said:

This is undoubtably racist, and we know this because there were comic strip and comic book artists contemporaneous to Kirby who did NOT depict black people in this manner. The question us, did he do this on his own or at the behest of an editor? Black characters at this time were largely used for comic relief, thus the use of stereotypical/racist features and language as they were perceived by white audiences as "funnier." It is entirely plausible Kirby was forced to draw like this to achieve an editorial aim -- and considering how small the industry was at the time, and how hard work was to come by, he may have done it out of necessity for his career. It's shameful but understandable in the context of the time period.

It is impossible to know with any degree of certainty what was in the mind of who drew this so I am not going to do any mental gymnastics to justify it.  I just have to look at it and draw my conclusion it is racist.  When it was drawn doesn’t matter, what people deemed “acceptable” doesn’t matter, it is still racist.