Hakes Auction Results, thoughts? 0

[tth2]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:37 AM, cstojano said:

I put a high max in to ensure I won the piece and low and behold, after extensions, I won it by one increment. Hmmm, nothing suspicious there. It was the only time I ever considered just not paying because what are they going to do?

Why is this automatically suspicious?  Is it beyond the realm of possibility that someone else also assigned a max valuation very similar to yours?

[Bronty]

On 12/11/2023 at 11:03 PM, tth2 said:

Why is this automatically suspicious?  Is it beyond the realm of possibility that someone else also assigned a max valuation very similar to yours?

I have a similar reaction when people say they were bid up.   The real test is - what was this winning bid in relation to FMV?   If one bids 100, 110, 120% of FMV and wins right at max bid, big deal, it doesn't evidence a thing (let alone prove a thing).    Now, if that same person bids 500% of FMV on something they absolutely had to have and they win for their max, that's more suspicious.     I have won certain auctions where I proxy bid and won for like 10% of my max bid.    That suggests to me that I was certainly not bid up by the house.    

Edited December 12, 2023 by Bronty

[cstojano]

On 12/11/2023 at 9:36 PM, Bronty said:

I have a similar reaction when people say they were bid up.   The real test is - what was this winning bid in relation to FMV?   If one bids 100, 110, 120% of FMV and wins right at max bid, big deal, it doesn't evidence a thing (let alone prove a thing).    Now, if that same person bids 500% of FMV on something they absolutely had to have and they win for their max, that's more suspicious.     I have won certain auctions where I proxy bid and won for like 10% of my max bid.    That suggests to me that I was certainly not bid up by the house.    

What was suspicious is the same lot passed without a single bid 6 months prior at an opening of 800 Euros. I emailed with them for months trying to buy it at the opening price and they said they couldn't make it work. So they relisted it in their next auction and suddenly it sells for 5x the previous unsold opening price. Did the market move in that 6 months? Yes a bit. But to be incrementally bid up to my max in real time was a bit odd all things considered. I had put in a very high bid the night before in case I didn't wake up in time for the Paris schedule. Turns out I did and watched this all unfold. Proof? None really. But I know most of the players in that market and 1 didn't even know about the auction and the other told me to cancel the sale because I got hosed

Another thing. This auction was back in 2019-2020. At the time a well known comic art dealer in Paris known for being expensive had similar pieces by the same artist (same theme/genre. etc) that they had for sale since 2009 for 1-1.5k. Was my piece better? Clearly I thought so, but objectively hard to say. 

edit: but you are both right. If one insane person (me) bid that much over market then who's to say there wasn't another. Then again, why are we giving auction houses and online bidding platforms the benefit of the doubt. Its not like we don't know they are allowed to bid on behalf of their clients. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by cstojano

[Bronty]

On 12/12/2023 at 10:14 AM, cstojano said:

What was suspicious is the same lot passed without a single bid 6 months prior at an opening of 800 Euros. I emailed with them for months trying to buy it at the opening price and they said they couldn't make it work. So they relisted it in their next auction and suddenly it sells for 5x the previous unsold opening price. Did the market move in that 6 months? Yes a bit. But to be incrementally bid up to my max in real time was a bit odd all things considered. I had put in a very high bid the night before in case I didn't wake up in time for the Paris schedule. Turns out I did and watched this all unfold. Proof? None really. But I know most of the players in that market and 1 didn't even know about the auction and the other told me to cancel the sale because I got hosed

Another thing. This auction was back in 2019-2020. At the time a well known comic art dealer in Paris known for being expensive had similar pieces by the same artist (same theme/genre. etc) that they had for sale since 2009 for 1-1.5k. Was my piece better? Clearly I thought so, but objectively hard to say. 

edit: but you are both right. If one insane person (me) bid that much over market then who's to say there wasn't another. Then again, why are we giving auction houses and online bidding platforms the benefit of the doubt. Its not like we don't know they are allowed to bid on behalf of their clients. 

You may be right; we just don't know what happened.

I guess the reason I do give the houses the benefit of the doubt is precisely because of my own experience in having won some lots for much much less than I proxy bid on them. 

[Will_K]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:02 PM, cstojano said:

This happened to me as well. CC, and similar closing auctions, is not the place to break a book where people might want multiple pages to go together. 

I've bid on multiple pieces in ComicConnect auctions.  I'll admit it is taxing to keep an eye on all those pieces. 

ComicConnect had 2 separate auctions dedicated to Nick Cardy's estate.  I was able to keep track of dozens except for one of the pieces. 

Another ComicConnect auction of comic art featured the Marshall Rogers cover and Mike Nasser lead story to DC Special Series 15 (AKA the Batman Spectacular).  I wasn't bidding on the cover.  But I was able to bid on (and win) the 7 pages I wanted and ended up losing on a "maybe" pages.  A little while later, I saw that Mike Burkey won all the other pages.

I once commented these types of auctions give the seller the best opportunity for a higher closing price.  Also as has been mentioned, HA's live auctioneers can get more $$$.  Contrast the long time to hammer vs Heritage Live's automated auctioneer's 5 second hammer. 

HA closes lots in sequence.  To me, ComicConnect's (and Hake's) method keeps ALL the lots in play and in a way, that means it squeezes every last bid for as many pieces as possible.  You bid your max on lot 45 and still lost ??  Well, now move on to lot 123 and reallocate $$$ to bidding on that.   And so on.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Will_K
7 pages

[cstojano]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:11 PM, Will_K said:

I've bid on multiple pieces in ComicConnect auctions.  I'll admit it is taxing to keep an eye on all those pieces. 

ComicConnect had 2 separate auctions dedicated to Nick Cardy's estate.  I was able to keep track of dozens except for one of the pieces. 

Another ComicConnect auction of comic art featured the Marshall Rogers cover and Mike Nasser lead story to DC Special Series 15 (AKA the Batman Spectacular).  I wasn't bidding on the cover.  But I was able to bid on (and win) the 6 pages I wanted and ended up losing on a "maybe" pages.  A little while later, I saw that Mike Burkey won all the other pages.

I once commented these types of auctions give the seller the best opportunity for a higher closing price.  Also as has been mentioned, HA's live auctioneers can get more $$$.  Contrast the long time to hammer vs Heritage Live's automated auctioneer's 5 second hammer. 

HA closes lots in sequence.  To me, ComicConnect's (and Hake's) method keeps ALL the lots in play and in a way, that means it squeezes every last bid for as many pieces as possible.  You bid your max on lot 45 and still lost ??  Well, now move on to lot 123 and reallocate $$$ to bidding on that.   And so on.

Yes its a bit of a mixed bag for sure, especially when pieces are ranked in your bidding approach. An example, the Williamson Star Wars try out strips. I feel my mind was reeling a bit during that whole process, the spread was quite large, about 2x vs the minimum as I recall. Its not unrelated to the psychology of live auction bidding but has a whiplash aspect to it. The oddest thing is people still try to snipe even when you know it extends another time interval. Its like giving the other bidder hope for 4 minutes and 58 seconds will deflate them enough that they give up. But then they have 4 minutes and 58 seconds to talk themselves into a punishment bid

Edited December 12, 2023 by cstojano

[cstojano]

On 12/12/2023 at 11:05 AM, Bronty said:

You may be right; we just don't know what happened.

I guess the reason I do give the houses the benefit of the doubt is precisely because of my own experience in having won some lots for much much less than I proxy bid on them. 

Yeah surely broad scale conspiracies are another matter. In this case bidding was very anemic across the board so I think it would be manageable to maximize sales. I can't recall but I think I ended up going through a 3rd party as well, which adds another set of eyes.

[tth2]

I definitely wish Heritage wouldn't always list its lots in alphabetical order.

Just once I'd like for bidders to use up their funds on the S-Zs and leave some A-Cs to be snapped up at relatively reasonable prices.

[alxjhnsn]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:43 AM, tth2 said:

I definitely wish Heritage wouldn't always list its lots in alphabetical order.

Just once I'd like for bidders to use up their funds on the S-Zs and leave some A-Cs to be snapped up at relatively reasonable prices.

Yeah, a randomized list would be good for the bidding order. The Viewing order could have a sort option to so that viewing wouldn't change.

[comix4fun]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:43 AM, tth2 said:

I definitely wish Heritage wouldn't always list its lots in alphabetical order.

Just once I'd like for bidders to use up their funds on the S-Zs and leave some A-Cs to be snapped up at relatively reasonable prices.

Alphabetical listings have, in my opinion, limited the Neal Adams market on everything but the very top shelf items as people are afraid to blow their budget in the first 15 minutes, not knowing where the Ditko, Kirby, Frazetta, Wood etc etc are going to end. 

[gumbydarnit]

Maybe a fair way would to apply an randomizer for the alphabet. (ie. j n f a b i x p y k c a.... ) and list the names in that order, in this example all the "J" names would lead the auction. Then at the next auction a new randomizer would be applied to alphabetical order. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by gumbydarnit

[cstojano]

How is it that I never noticed Heritage did alpha order on their listings? I certainly noticed it for CL. Much like boarding an airplane, there must be established science on ordering strategies in auctions based on some number of variables, none of which involve the artist's last name in alpha order.

[comix4fun]

On 12/13/2023 at 4:15 PM, cstojano said:

How is it that I never noticed Heritage did alpha order on their listings? I certainly noticed it for CL. Much like boarding an airplane, there must be established science on ordering strategies in auctions based on some number of variables, none of which involve the artist's last name in alpha order.

Well, art collectors collect by artist and not by title or character for the most part and especially as the value level climbs. I mean, it only makes sense to alpha order their artwork. Clink does it too. But I like the idea of maybe starting at "L" and working back around every once in a while.  

[Sideshow Bob]

On 12/13/2023 at 6:33 PM, comix4fun said:

Well, art collectors collect by artist and not by title or character for the most part and especially as the value level climbs. I mean, it only makes sense to alpha order their artwork. Clink does it too. But I like the idea of maybe starting at "L" and working back around every once in a while.  

It didn't help keep the Adlard WD interior page at Heritage Weekly from getting run up tonight...

[RBerman]

On 12/13/2023 at 6:35 PM, Sideshow Bob said:

It didn't help keep the Adlard WD interior page at Heritage Weekly from getting run up tonight...

That was a good page too.

[cstojano]

On 12/13/2023 at 5:35 PM, Sideshow Bob said:

It didn't help keep the Adlard WD interior page at Heritage Weekly from getting run up tonight...

Damn another Wed auction I forgot about. 

[tth2]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:45 AM, comix4fun said:

Alphabetical listings have, in my opinion, limited the Neal Adams market on everything but the very top shelf items as people are afraid to blow their budget in the first 15 minutes, not knowing where the Ditko, Kirby, Frazetta, Wood etc etc are going to end. 

Just think what it's done to the Art Adams market! 

[gumbydarnit]

What about Zeck... how many folks are blew through their cash before the Secret Wars 8 page... it could have hit 4 mil 

; )

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by gumbydarnit

[comix4fun]

On 12/13/2023 at 11:49 PM, tth2 said:

Just think what it's done to the Art Adams market! 

Even worse…..aye carumba. 

[Aahz]

ComicLink takes a lot of hits because of the platform, but one thing I do like is that they provide two lists: type of art & artist name.  It's a level of detail I like.  Although, I traditionally collect by title, I have been looking at artists to fill gaps.