ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/23/2023 at 1:36 AM, comicwiz said:

100%. I really didn't give a mess about the likes, it's the same pattern on all soc med. What bothered me even more is that he was using the analysis from these forums and taking credit for it. Even yesterday, when I posted those screenshots, I asked for someone to post a clearer image than what I was able to pull out from WP. It took several members here to both provide images, and better juxtapoisitioning for comparison. There were still people chiming-in saying they weren't the same book, and because of all of us doing our part, it was clear as day they were the same. At that point, it's ours. 

However, when I see him using perspectives shared on here of how this is possibly happening, that's the last straw. And him responding that he didn't delete my comments is pure bs when I keep showing he's doing it with screenshots of my replies that keep getting removed. The latest speaks on why it ultimately should be called out for what it is:

I mentioned this discussion in his YouTube comments yesterday and it was immediately deleted. I had no idea why at the time, but I know why now.

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:39 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I mentioned this discussion in his YouTube comments yesterday and it was immediately deleted. I had no idea why at the time, but I know why now.

The account I have is one I use for metal detecting (MD). You know right away who in that hobby does it for the wrong reasons by this very action you are speaking of. Usually, it's because they are taking money from some MD maker, reseller or dealer. When you catch them spewing nonsense, or covering stuff up, you try to call it out for what it is, and BAMM, this is how they control the narrative. 

Weaker than bad operators gaming a grader in my opinion, because everything that comes out of their mouth after that can't be trusted.

And FWIW, I posted on the Swaggle guys YouTube post also, same thing happened. Fool me once...

Edited December 22, 2023 by comicwiz

[Axelrod]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:39 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I mentioned this discussion in his YouTube comments yesterday and it was immediately deleted. I had no idea why at the time, but I know why now.

It's possible he has peeps that do that for him.  Delete anything negative and he might never see it himself.  Then gives him deniability about seeing/deleting negative comments.  

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:44 AM, Axelrod said:

It's possible he has peeps that do that for him.  Delete anything negative and he might never see it himself.  Then gives him deniability about seeing/deleting negative comments.  

Only the YouTube account holder has that control over comments. These posts are disappearing minutes after they are made, so he's humping the delete button. No question about it.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/23/2023 at 1:44 AM, Axelrod said:

It's possible he has peeps that do that for him.  Delete anything negative and he might never see it himself.  Then gives him deniability about seeing/deleting negative comments.  

I'm pretty sure he did it himself, as he answered another more innocuous comment I made only minutes earlier.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:39 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I mentioned this discussion in his YouTube comments yesterday and it was immediately deleted. I had no idea why at the time, but I know why now.

So not just disingenuous, but also insecure.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, mephistopheles said:

Signings are a different process, where the book is removed from the inner well and handled by signer. 

It does shed some light into what would happen if every reholder was re-graded though. There is no person signing it, but if books have to be removed from the inner sleeves to be accurately regraded and checking for missing things like the MVS there is a chance of damaging the book during that process. I am guessing that is why reholders do not go through that type of process right now, which is what the scam artist was exploiting. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Stefan_W

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:47 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I'm pretty sure he did it himself, as he answered another more innocuous comment I made only minutes earlier.

100% he's deleting them himself, because on one of the comments, I tried to make a small edit (spelling mistake) and when I tried to save it, it was gone. 

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, MAR1979 said:

Fish in Barrel Predictions:

1) ZERO Response From CGC today
2) ZERO Response From CGC EVER regarding this situation
3) CGC will do nothing and change nothing
4) CGC Apologists will down play everything
5) Peeps will continue to submit comics to CGC unabated
6) Many more will be swindled by this Comic Seller/Dealer who knows how simple it is to exploit CGC process!
7) Other Comic Sellers/Dealers will attempt the same scam - they are Comic Dealers after all!

The only item on above list CGC is concerned with in any manner whatsoever is #5

I think CGC will have to publicly respond somehow, even if it's just to say "We're looking into this." There's too much money involved, and too much potential damage to their reputation involved, to just ignore. I do agree though that people will keep on submitting to CGC as always. A lot of people's collections, and even their conception of the hobby itself, are inexorably attached to, and dependent upon, CGC. There are plenty of people who like to collect the way coin and card collectors do, with their books on display in nice cases.  And although I'm not one of those people, I get that the "bags and boards and long boxes" manner of collecting can be both an inconvenience and aesthetically lacking. (All those beautiful books just hidden away in a box somewhere, when they could be prettying up your shelves as display-pieces instead.)

At the end of the day though, I see collecting slabbed books as being very much like collecting classic cars that you don't have the keys to. You can look at them, but you can't ever take them out for a drive. You can't even open the door. Where's the fun in that?

[jcjames]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:24 AM, Steven Valdez said:

The question is, how many people are doing this? And how long has it been going on? If it's possible to scam a system, it will be scammed.

I know of an (ex)-CGC sig-witness who scammed people out of their HG books that he would swap out for his own personal lower grade books for sig-series. 

He was eventually caught, but no telling how many hundreds of books he did this with before getting caught, and I'm sure he wasn't/isn't the only one.

 

But in the case of this seller who cracks, swaps, then resubmits for reholder or ME without CGC checking, that's the CGC's sloppiness being exposed and exploited. 

And as you said, it's pretty certain this seller isn't the only one to have figured out that CGC's sloppiness is ripe for being exploited. 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by jcjames

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:44 AM, comicwiz said:

And FWIW, I posted on the Swaggle guys YouTube post also, same thing happened. Fool me once...

These guys Swaggle, Automatic, Regie, etc. see a story then hurry to try to be the first to post a video.  All of them with big, baity text and photo if them with their head in their hands.   Then their vids get posted in forums and boom, tons more clicks.

Cred and monetization are all that matters.

I used to sub to all of them. Stopped a couple years ago.  The more I found on YT, the more I saw that presentation matters... and all of them are just so boring.

 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:48 AM, Stefan_W said:

It does shed some light into what would happen if ever reholder was re-graded though. There is no person signing it, but if book have to be removed from the inner sleeves to be accurately regraded and checking for missing things like the MVS there is a chance of damaging the book during that process. I am guessing that is why reholders do not go through that type of process right now, which is what the scam artist was exploiting. 

Bingo! CGC was clearly too cheap/lazy to fix such an obvious gap in their QC. Now it's going to cost them (and by extension us) more.

[Timed]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:58 AM, sledgehammer said:

Can you explain what this was about? I can't find another reference to it.

In the new Auto Comics video here, he finds that the 266 newsstand 9.8 sold by briva3, was also sold before by someone else as a 9.8 direct. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/23/2023 at 1:53 AM, jcjames said:

I know of an (ex)-CGC sig-witness who scammed people out of their HG books that he would swap out for his own personal lower grade books for sig-series. 

He was eventually caught, but no telling how many hundreds of books he did this with before getting caught, and I'm sure he wasn't/isn't the only one.

 

But in the case of this seller who cracks, swaps, then resubmits for reholder or ME without CGC checking, that's the CGC's sloppiness being exposed and exploited. 

And as you said, it's pretty certain this seller isn't the only one to have figured out that CGC's sloppiness is ripe for being exploited. 

 

 

Be good if someone could do a Mystery Diners style sting on them.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:55 AM, Sigur Ros said:

These guys Swaggle, Automatic, Regie, etc. see a story then hurry to try to be the first to post a video.  All of them with big, baity text and photo if them with their head in their hands.   Then their vids get posted in forums and boom, tons more clicks.

Here is the thing though - when someone uses a calmer and non-click baity approach the video may not get any traction at all. This is just how the social media game is right now. Spectacularity in presentation is rewarded. 

[MAR1979]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:52 AM, Happy Noodle Boy said:

I think CGC will have to publicly respond somehow, even if it's just to say "We're looking into this." There's too much money involved, and too much potential damage to their reputation involved, to just ignore. I do agree though that people will keep on submitting to CGC as always.

We will know in next 7 hours if my first prediction is correct! 

You are correct about the $ involved which is why saying or doing nothing is to their benefit. Ignoring is the only option in which they do not have fork over any cash to anyone for any reason. Keep in mind for their Parent Company CGC is merely a pump and dump, they have no concern with CGC's future only the money coming in today.

Edited December 22, 2023 by MAR1979

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:56 AM, Timed said:

In the new Auto Comics video here, he finds that the 266 newsstand 9.8 sold by briva3, was also sold before by someone else as a 9.8 direct. 

Ok. Thanks. It was the phrasing of your original sentence that through me.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:56 AM, Timed said:

In the new Auto Comics video here, he finds that the 266 newsstand 9.8 sold by briva3, was also sold before by someone else as a 9.8 direct. 

People need to stop linking to his vids.

[comicginger1789]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:55 AM, Sigur Ros said:

These guys Swaggle, Automatic, Regie, etc. see a story then hurry to try to be the first to post a video.  All of them with big, baity text and photo if them with their head in their hands.   Then their vids get posted in forums and boom, tons more clicks.

Cred and monetization are all that matters.

I used to sub to all of them. Stopped a couple years ago.  The more I found on YT, the more I saw that presentation matters... and all of them are just so boring.

 

This is true. They are a part of the community and I can appreciate their ability to maybe educate new collectors or provide some useful info but majority of it I find here and better places. Plus they have skin in the game and come across as scripted. The only Youtuber I follow religiously is the comic doctor, a lovely guy who has been pressing books for over a decade and just chats with his clients and other collectors whilst showing off their books he gets back. It's an honest feeling atmosphere that I don't see or fee from guys like Swaggle, Automatic, MintHunter, VeryGary, etc, etc

[Iconic1s]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:27 AM, RonS2112 said:

You can’t blame this scam for the census being .  Cracking, pressing and resubbing is a way of life for some speculators and that practice ruined the census a long time ago.

You are correct, but this is just ANOTHER reason why the census is worthless MOST of the time. I’m not saying I have a problem with CPR, even though we know we’re “supposed” to return the cracked label  many don’t.  This guy just made it so much worse though, if he in fact did keep making a 9.8 back into a 9.8, so he could fraudulently turn lower grade books into “9.8 holdered” books.  Purpose of CPR (I thought) was to bump, lets say, your 9.4-9.6 to a 9.8 and be done with it.  if the book’s previous label isn’t returned that’s a bummer but not as bad as this guy adding numerous 9.8’s using the same book.

You guys know as well as I do that we often times base asking/offering prices on census population… for anyone collecting the kind of books he targeted, that tool just became as worthless as a hammer without a head.

I still think this is all on CGC for providing this window of opportunity. I looked carefully at CGC’s description of their holder and label last night and if you look carefully it’s really all about “preservation” and “presentation.”  I don’t really read anything about guaranteeing the holder’s contents as authentic, more that the holder itself is authentic.  Very clever I think!