ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sledgehammer]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:51 PM, skybolt said:

9.9newsstand definitely knows who he is and noted that he's taken a picture of him at a convention. I need to re-watch the podcast to find out when this was said.

no, you don't have to. I believe you.

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:05 PM, comicwiz said:

Amazing! Control the narrative, stick head back in sand.

I believe they got a warning for speaking about the competition, which is known not to be allowed. 

[bc]

So if I understand the full extent of this, the original 9.8 never leaves the inner well? This would increase the chance of getting a 9.8 on a resub for a new cert number.

I know you can directly submit the competitors slabbed books (I did a batch), guess nothing stops one from resubmitting inside its original CGC inner well.

-bc

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by bc
typos & grammar

[Sam T]

I don't understand why so much of the conversation is focused on variants and CGC's reholdering process. If someone was able to crack a slab open and then swap out the book without CGC's own graders being able to notice the tampering, then the average customer DEFINITELY wouldn't be able to spot it. A person could generate massive amounts of crooked profits by taking midgrade copies of the most popular bronze age keys (GSXMen, ASM129, Hulk181, etc...) and swapping in a book 2 points lower. Think about a GSX 6.0 and a GSX 8.0. After you swap in the lower grade, you sell it for about 3k and then original 8.0 (now out of the case) regraded. It's much easier to fudge the grade on a midgrade book than a 9.8. And CGC sees so many midgrade giant size x-mens that the scammer could just keep sending the book in under different names/locations and they'd have no reason to think they're seeing a suspicious number of that book at that grade. But if you do this with 9.8's then all of us a sudden you're blowing up the census and people might start lookin' more closely. The real problem people are describing is that fake that, if swagglehauses conspiracy theory is true, then slabs cannot be considered tamper proof and that would be a DISASTER for CGC as a company...however...

 

I think all of this might be a moot point since as far as I can tell, no one has actually gotten one of these "fake slabs" in their hands. I think the questionable ebay dealer is just a guy dummying up fake sales data on ebay rather than a CGC surgeon who can actually swap out books without leaving any evidence of tampering. Seriously, until someone can actually demonstrate a process for cracking and replacing a book in a slab without leaving any indication, we have no reason to believe it's actually happening.

 

There are two accounts claiming to have bought slabs from the dealer in question and both accounts had absolutely no posting history until this controversy. Can anyone point to any part of this scam definitively taking place in the real world?

Edited December 26, 2023 by Sam T

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:43 PM, bc said:

It's also odd how the versions of the grader's notes significantly deviates.

Specifically the foxing notation, which I thought was a fairly important criteria to document.

And the fingerprints don't disappear from the back cover but they do from the notes.

Notes are very misunderstood by the general public.

CGC has no consistent standard for taking notes. They're not exhaustive. They just list whatever they feel like listing at the time the book is in front of them. 

The notes could change every time the book is submitted. 

On 12/25/2023 at 7:51 PM, skybolt said:

9.9newsstand definitely knows who he is and noted that he's taken a picture of him at a convention. I need to re-watch the podcast to find out when this was said.

I listened to the 1st 2 or 3 videos and stopped, but I know that this person is not unknown in variant circles (MJ inserts, Newsstands). 

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:51 PM, skybolt said:

9.9newsstand definitely knows who he is and noted that he's taken a picture of him at a convention. I need to re-watch the podcast to find out when this was said.

A little confused at this. 9.9 didn't take a picture of anyone at a convention, if that's what you're implying, nor it was never said he took a picture of anyone. Screenshots of the IG DMs that Zaneglor sent was the only thing that you might be talking about. But if I'm misunderstanding whats being said here please enlighten me, thanks!

Edited December 26, 2023 by WestcoastDAVEngers

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:15 PM, Sam T said:

I don't understand why so much of the conversation is focused on variants and CGC's reholdering process. If someone was able to crack a slab open and then swap out the book without CGC's own graders being able to notice the tampering, then the average customer DEFINITELY wouldn't be able to spot it. A person could generate massive amounts of crooked profits by taking midgrade copies of the most popular bronze age keys (GSXMen, ASM129, Hulk181, etc...) and swapping in a book 2 points lower. Think about a GSX 6.0 and a GSX 8.0. After you swap in the lower grade, you sell it for about 3k and then original 8.0 (now out of the case) regraded. It's much easier to fudge the grade on a midgrade book than a 9.8. And CGC sees so many midgrade giant size x-mens that the scammer could just keep sending the book in under different names/locations and they'd have no reason to think they're seeing a suspicious number of that book at that grade. But if you do this with 9.8's then all of us a sudden you're blowing up the census and people might start lookin' more closely. The real problem people are describing is that fake that, if swagglehauses conspiracy theory is true, then slabs cannot be considered tamper proof and that would be a DISASTER for CGC as a company...however...

 

I think all of this might be a moot point since as far as I can tell, no one has actually gotten one of these "fake slabs" in their hands. I think the questionable ebay dealer is just a guy dummying up fake sales data on ebay rather than a CGC surgeon who can actually swap out books without leaving any evidence of tampering. Seriously, until someone can actually demonstrate a process for cracking and replacing a book in a slab without leaving any indication, we have no reason to believe it's actually happening.

 

There are two accounts claiming to have bought slabs from the dealer in question and both accounts had absolutely no posting history until this controversy. Can anyone point to any part of this scam definitively taking place in the real world?

One of the theories is that the parties involved are high volume submitters which would reduce the suspicion on the ration of ME's/reholders requests due to historical average volumes.

Not stating that as a confirmed fact, just something speculated during the last 125 pages.

-bc

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:26 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

A little confused at this. 9.9 didn't take a picture of anyone at a convention, if that's what you're implying, nor it was never said he took a picture of anyone. Screenshots of the IG DMs that Zaneglor said was the only thing that you might be talking about. But if I'm misunderstanding whats being said here please enlighten me, thanks!

The way you explained it is the way I understood it as well. 

I don't remember any mention of this guy being photographed at conventions. 

There is a LOT of speculation in this thread. 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:28 PM, VintageComics said:

 

There is a LOT of speculation in this thread. 

You're just speculating about there being a lot of speculation.   

Edited December 26, 2023 by Stefan_W

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:26 PM, VintageComics said:

Notes are very misunderstood by the general public.

CGC has no consistent standard for taking notes. They're not exhaustive. They just list whatever they feel like listing at the time the book is in front of them. 

The notes could change every time the book is submitted. 

I listened to the 1st 2 or 3 videos and stopped, but I know that this person is not unknown in variant circles (MJ inserts, Newsstands). 

I agree 100%, but obvious detractors like foxing and finger prints are worth a note. 

Show's their lack of software development as those options aren't standardized in a drop down list - they appear hand entered. And people think they can do AI ? 

-bc

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:15 PM, Sam T said:

I don't understand why so much of the conversation is focused on variants and CGC's reholdering process. If someone was able to crack a slab open and then swap out the book without CGC's own graders being able to notice the tampering, then the average customer DEFINITELY wouldn't be able to spot it. A person could generate massive amounts of crooked profits by taking midgrade copies of the most popular bronze age keys (GSXMen, ASM129, Hulk181, etc...) and swapping in a book 2 points lower. Think about a GSX 6.0 and a GSX 8.0. After you swap in the lower grade, you sell it for about 3k and then original 8.0 (now out of the case) regraded. It's much easier to fudge the grade on a midgrade book than a 9.8. And CGC sees so many midgrade giant size x-mens that the scammer could just keep sending the book in under different names/locations and they'd have no reason to think they're seeing a suspicious number of that book at that grade. But if you do this with 9.8's then all of us a sudden you're blowing up the census and people might start lookin' more closely. The real problem people are describing is that fake that, if swagglehauses conspiracy theory is true, then slabs cannot be considered tamper proof and that would be a DISASTER for CGC as a company...however...

 

I think all of this might be a moot point since as far as I can tell, no one has actually gotten one of these "fake slabs" in their hands. I think the questionable ebay dealer is just a guy dummying up fake sales data on ebay rather than a CGC surgeon who can actually swap out books without leaving any evidence of tampering. Seriously, until someone can actually demonstrate a process for cracking and replacing a book in a slab without leaving any indication, we have no reason to believe it's actually happening.

 

There are two accounts claiming to have bought slabs from the dealer in question and both accounts had absolutely no posting history until this controversy. Can anyone point to any part of this scam definitively taking place in the real world?

You're really going to need to get caught up in this thread for your answers because from your post, you're missing a lot of info. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:31 PM, bc said:

I agree 100%, but obvious detractors like foxing and finger prints are worth a note. 

Again, a misunderstanding about what the notes are.

The CGC graders notes are notes for internal use amongst THE GRADERS so that they don't miss something during the grading process. 

The notes are NOT intended for us, the end consumers. They only became publicly available due to public demand. 

The notes are not exhaustive and the public doesn't determine which notes are important and which aren't. 

The only reason I ever check the notes is on the off chance that there's something in the notes that I may have missed. 

You can't look to the notes as some sort of standardized thing. It isn't. You're lucky to even see them as most books no longer have notes, and I assume this is simply to save time during the grading process.

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:31 PM, bc said:

Show's their lack of software development as those options aren't standardized in a drop down list - they appear hand entered.

Who said they're not standardized? They're time consuming. Sure, it's 'only a couple of seconds' per note, but when you grade several 1000 books a day that translates into a lot of time. 

They're just more interested in grading books and pumping out volume than taking detailed notes for people like you and me. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:37 PM, VintageComics said:

Who said they're not standardized? They're just time consuming. They're more interested in grading books and pumping out volume than taking detailed notes for people like you and me. 

Because standardized meta data trends feed Large Language Models...but that belongs in another thread 

Data is the new currency.

-bc

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:26 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

A little confused at this. 9.9 didn't take a picture of anyone at a convention, if that's what you're implying, nor it was never said he took a picture of anyone. Screenshots of the IG DMs that Zaneglor sent was the only thing that you might be talking about. But if I'm misunderstanding whats being said here please enlighten me, thanks!

My apologies. That's why I needed to go back and check the podcast again, which again was very informative. 

[Sam T]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:32 PM, VintageComics said:

You're really going to need to get caught up in this thread for your answers because from your post, you're missing a lot of info. 

Has anyone actually shown a book that they bought from this guy or not? I've seen two comments from blank accounts saying they had 'em. Neither included photos, video or screenshots of their transaction with the guy.

 

This looks like a fake market data scam more than a fake slab scam.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:19 AM, Donutsdad said:

If the submitter only requested a reholder, CGC might not be liable since they had no obligation to review the grade itself.  Civil liability might still be not warranted ...but I am not a judge...I just sound like one in person...lol

Presumably CGC stands by its grading. Grading is CGC's only job, it's even in the name. If a book is found to have a page missing without that being disclosed, then CGC is misrepresenting that product.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:26 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

A little confused at this. 9.9 didn't take a picture of anyone at a convention, if that's what you're implying, nor it was never said he took a picture of anyone. Screenshots of the IG DMs that Zaneglor sent was the only thing that you might be talking about. But if I'm misunderstanding whats being said here please enlighten me, thanks!

He definitely did present in a way that made it look as though he definitely knows who this guy is. Neither one of you want to doxx the guy and that is understandable. There was a point where you started to say his eBay seller name, and he started to interrupt you, because he thought that you were going to say his actual name.

you stated that you don't want to risk your YouTube channel, and that is certainly a very smart posture to have.

whether or not anyone at this point is going by packages that were received in transactions with him, or they absolutely know who he is, anyone here is only guessing.

i've had someone present to me what seemed like a very strong case on who this is, but this will all play out in due time.

 

[bc]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:52 PM, Sam T said:

Has anyone actually shown a book that they bought from this guy or not? I've seen two comments from blank accounts saying they had 'em. Neither included photos, video or screenshots of their transaction with the guy.

 

This looks like a fake market data scam more than a fake slab scam.

Thread is only 9 days old. Have patience. We are a small slice of the collecting community.

There is plenty of evidence of qualified/donor books winding up in High Grade Universal slabs with many having "newly discovered" variant designations.

-bc

 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:15 PM, Sam T said:

I think all of this might be a moot point since as far as I can tell, no one has actually gotten one of these "fake slabs" in their hands. I think the questionable ebay dealer is just a guy dummying up fake sales data on ebay rather than a CGC surgeon who can actually swap out books without leaving any evidence of tampering. Seriously, until someone can actually demonstrate a process for cracking and replacing a book in a slab without leaving any indication, we have no reason to believe it's actually happening.

The only people that would have gotten to see one of the alleged tampered with slabs would have been the CGC reholdering department.  They (the slabs) seem to have been back through CGC hands before ever getting to a buyer.

If all he was doing was playing with the market he wouldn’t need to go through all this effort.  He could just use a few shills to increase the perceived value of these books without all the swapping.