ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 8:22 AM, sledgehammer said:

I'm only 46 records into a total of nearly 450 sales from the intermingled sales histories of their eBay sales.

All I will say is that thus far, is this adds a new twist to the widely held belief the "swaps" and "tampering" center on only a couple of key books in high grade.

[HighGrade]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:19 PM, comicwiz said:

As I'm slowly going through the mined data for the eBay accounts alleged to be connected to the employees lawsuit, I notice something.

We now have a note that states the following:

If the information displayed above is incorrect or does not match the collectible you are verifying, or if you believe that you have a counterfeit or tampered CGC holder, please contact Submissions@CGCcomics.com. To learn more about counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here.

This notation appears below the photos of the book under CGC Cert #: 4355451009

Now, take a moment to look at the cert screenshot below. Look at the notes. Then look at the book.

 

That note is on ALL books, not just his, pretty sure it's been there for a while? does anyone know how long?

 

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:08 AM, HighGrade said:

That note is on ALL books, not just his, pretty sure it's been there for a while? does anyone know how long?

 

To clarify, I didn't say it was only on that book. But I can assure you the notation is new. The reason I posted that was to show the disparity between the assigned grade on the label (as well as notes lacking mention of flaws), and the book inside.

[HighGrade]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:11 AM, comicwiz said:

To clarify, I didn't say it was only on that book. But I can assure you the notation is new. The reason I posted that was to show the disparity between the assigned grade on the label (as well as notes lacking mention of flaws), and the book inside.

Yeah, I thought you were connecting to the person, that's just how I read it, but yeah it's been up since at least July, Might have started when they started posting all the images, I would like to know if was early because the posting of all the images is most likely when they found problems. I can't see them just randomly starting that.

But now we just need all the images up! So important to verify the original image at time of slabbing, and should note if it was reholdered AND leave up the original image!! Have all images.

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:25 AM, HighGrade said:

but yeah it's been up since at least July, Might have started when they started posting all the images

Go through this summary with screenshots of the cert look-ups, none of them have had it. Now, I have been doing cert screenshots since Jan 30th. I can also assure you that the word "counterfeit' is a very new word in the CGC grading vernacular, introduced only after the lawsuits, and from what I can tell, was used for "impacted" books. I would have noticed this from the hundreds of looks-up I've done since starting the research I've done.

Edited February 7 by comicwiz

[sledgehammer]

On 2/7/2024 at 8:11 AM, comicwiz said:

To clarify, I didn't say it was only on that book. But I can assure you the notation is new. The reason I posted that was to show the disparity between the assigned grade on the label (as well as notes lacking mention of flaws), and the book inside.

Do you a theory on what the Terrazzos did here?

What threw me was the mention of light spine roll in the notes.

It didn't strike me as "light", but the grade was clearly screwy.

Edited February 7 by sledgehammer
slight

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:35 AM, sledgehammer said:

Do you a theory on what the Terrazzos did here?

What threw me was the mention of slight spine roll in the notes.

It didn't strike me as "slight", but the grade was clearly screwy.

The book is a disaster, nowhere near a 4.5. The fanning interior is something that appears to dangerously infringe on the seams on the inner well. I've seen books with minor overhangs denied for grading for reasons of less concern or risk to being damanged. The missing defects in the notes is something I'm seeing as a pattern in other books they sold. I'm having to step away to take care of some things, but just look up a CGC 4.5 grade for this book, and that may help you see the disparity better. 

Edited February 7 by comicwiz

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:35 AM, sledgehammer said:

Do you a theory on what the Terrazzos did here?

What threw me was the mention of light spine roll in the notes.

It didn't strike me as "light", but the grade was clearly screwy.

Actually the notes state "very light" spine roll. In my opinion, that is extensive spine roll and I'd be surprised if that was the book that initially obtained the 4.5 grade. 

[sledgehammer]

On 2/7/2024 at 8:45 AM, comicwiz said:

but just look up a CGC 4.5 grade for this book, and that may help you see the disparity better. 

No, I clearly got that. I was just wondering if the notes were all from a different book, or if they played around with the notes for this book.

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:48 AM, sledgehammer said:

No, I clearly got that. I was just wondering if the notes were all from a different book, or if they played around with the notes for this book.

There's too many variables to know. Given the allegations presented in the lawsuit, it's possible these were raw swaps, customer books that disappeared, very difficult to say. 

[comicwiz]

@CGC Mike 

I think @HighGrade brings up a valid point here that is worthy of getting some verification from the CGC team on for the wider community to better understand the timeline of when this change occurred. It is unfortunate that we are seemingly seeing updates/changes to information which collectors rely on, and it being done without any announcement or notice, leaving some of us doubting even what we think has happened, or when it's happening.

The question specifically pertains to the following verbiage that is now appearing underneath the photos on Cert# look-ups:

"If the information displayed above is incorrect or does not match the collectible you are verifying, or if you believe that you have a counterfeit or tampered CGC holder, please contact Submissions@CGCcomics.com. To learn more about counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here."

From my perspective, I've been taking screenshots for posterity, and to track changes, for at least the better part of an entire month. However not all screenshots of certs I took had photos, and I also cropped out the area beneath the photos.

However, from the notation itself, there are several aspects to the wording that indicate this is something that meshes aligns with the recent actions against the alleged perpetrators of two seperate incidents, as outlined by two seperate lawsuits. The most telling for me is the use of "counterfeit or tampered CGC holder" as well as a link to the "counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here" linking to the announcement that was only made on Jan 3rd, 2024.

In addition to having some elaboration or explanation as when this notation was added, and when the changes mentioning "counterfeit or tampered" were added, I would also like to know if this notation was added accross all cert entries, and if so, when that happened. On the latter point, I simply want to understand if this notation was added just for impacted books, then when was it decided to expand it to all certs. 

Thanks Mike!

Edited February 7 by comicwiz

[HighGrade]

 

On 2/7/2024 at 9:34 AM, comicwiz said:

Not a chance. I've been doing screenshots for a long enough period to know when I see something new. Go through this summary with screenshots of the cert look-ups, none of them have had it. Now, I have been doing cert screenshots since Jan 30th. I can also assure you that the word "counterfeit' is a very new word in the CGC grading vernacular, introduced only after the lawsuits. I would have noticed this from the hundreds of looks-up I've done since starting the research I've done.

I certainly believe you didn't see it, but yeah I was 100% sure I saw it some books? I even clicked on the link learn more because I thought it would show the tamper evident part of the case and it didn't show anything about that at all..LOL.

I just found the actual note in this thread below, I'm guessing it was just on the ones added after July maybe? At least I know I wasn't seeing things or nuts. you started to worry me.

Check out this thread it might help with some things and timelines.
https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/524080-cgc-scanning-all-books/.  Someone in the thread actually copied and listed the note, 15 posts down, maybe certain browsers block it like ad block?

On a side note, we need back images!!! especially with this note, I can see people freaking out with no picture showing on most. seems like they are bad books without an image.

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:14 AM, HighGrade said:

 

I certainly believe you didn't see it, but yeah I was 100% sure I saw it some books? I even clicked on the link learn more because I thought it would show the tamper evident part of the case and it didn't show anything about that at all..LOL.

I just found the actual note in this thread below, I'm guessing it was just on the ones added after July maybe? At least I know I wasn't seeing things or nuts. you started to worry me.

Check out this thread it might help with some things and timelines.
https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/524080-cgc-scanning-all-books/.  Someone in the thread actually copied and listed the note, 15 posts down, maybe certain browsers block it like ad block?

On a side note, we need back images!!! especially with this note, I can see people freaking out with no picture showing on most. seems like they are bad books without an image.

Great catch! Here is the link - wow, I'm surprised no one questioned this at the time.

[HighGrade]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:17 AM, comicwiz said:

Great catch! Here is the link - wow, I'm surprised no one questioned this at the time.

Thanks, not sure I would have looked for it but I knew it was on some books that I looked up. The note makes it even more important to get images of all books up! They surely see how it helped so hopefully we get all them! The books we own without images in the lookup will be looked at in a negative way by some, seeing there are links now in auctions to the lookup.

Also HUGE idea here, that would clear up even more future worries and stop this type of scam.  Post up all images of original holdered book (when first slabbed), AND when they reholder any book, keep both images (BINGO) Then you have a full picture history of the book at CGC.  Then you as a buyer can look on the cert lookup and clearly check if your book matches at all stages!  But now if you check it could just be the reholdered image so we have to dig through past sales to find the original.

This could be HUGE, it would solve a lot of the lack of confidence, Then any buyer can see if the book matches, solves some big worries. Full transparency in all graded collectibles is a must now, that's why I love that there is one big auction house that has links from GPA to the all sales, kudos to them, don't know if I can mention names, there is 2 that link back from GPA.

Lets please get this done, we are counting on you CGC! this could be a big improvement and make people feel more confident to spend $$

 

Edited February 7 by HighGrade

[comicjel]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:17 AM, comicwiz said:

Great catch! Here is the link - wow, I'm surprised no one questioned this at the time.

Hmm... so back in June or July of 2023 CGC started adding scans of newly graded books in their verify module (for "security" purposes), and at the same time added a generic note about contacting them if you suspect counterfeit activity with your book??

Sounds to me like CGC has been on to this type of scam in some fashion for longer than may have been thought!

No kudos for transparency, but I am glad they started to make some meaningful changes without being guilted into doing so!  

[comicjel]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:44 AM, HighGrade said:

Thanks, not sure I would have looked for it but I knew it was on some books that I looked up. The note makes it even more important to get images of all books up! They surely see how it helped so hopefully we get all them! The books we own without images in the lookup will be looked at in a negative way by some, seeing there are links now in auctions to the lookup.

Also HUGE idea here, that would clear up even more future worries and stop this type of scam.  Post up all images of original holdered book (when first slabbed), AND when they reholder any book, keep both images (BINGO) Then you have a full picture history of the book at CGC.  Then you as a buyer can look on the cert lookup and clearly check if your book matches at all stages!  But now if you check it could just be the reholdered image so we have to dig through past sales to find the original.

This could be HUGE, it would solve a lot of the lack of confidence, Then any buyer can see if the book matches, solves some big worries. Full transparency in all graded collectibles is a must now, that's why I love that there is one big auction house that has links from GPA to the all sales, kudos to them, don't know if I can mention names, there is 2 that link back from GPA.

Lets please get this done, we are counting on you CGC! this could be a big improvement and make people feel more confident to spend $$

 

Completely agree!! - original "grading" scans of all books should start to be loaded onto the verify module!   

[HighGrade]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:51 AM, comicjel said:

Hmm... so back in June or July of 2023 CGC started adding scans of newly graded books in their verify module (for "security" purposes), and at the same time added a generic note about contacting them if you suspect counterfeit activity with your book??

Sounds to me like CGC has been on to this type of scam in some fashion for longer than may have been thought!

No kudos for transparency, but I am glad they started to make some meaningful changes without being guilted into doing so!  

I will give them a pass on transparency, absolutely no way could they let us know back in July. It was an ongoing investigation, they did interviews in September, they couldn't say anything about those images being put up. Maybe they still can't say anything, so we shouldn't freak if we don't give full disclosure on the why how when, maybe never get the full details.  So we have to be aware of the case and what the lawyers tell management, usually they say shut it up.

On 2/7/2024 at 10:56 AM, comicjel said:

Completely agree!! - original "grading" scans of all books should start to be loaded onto the verify module!   

Yes! I hope they agree too, and the important part is to keep the original scan up even after reholder, BOTH images need to be there, like on google maps, just have a link saying original scan with date, then put up the reholdered scan as the main. You might have books showing 3 images of each time it was slabbed, this helps them as much as collectors, it's a complete timeline that would help stop a swap in the future, you can really verify your book your looking to buy without digging into past sales.

[CJ Design]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:19 PM, comicwiz said:

As I'm slowly going through the mined data for the eBay accounts alleged to be connected to the employees lawsuit, I notice something.

We now have a note that states the following:

If the information displayed above is incorrect or does not match the collectible you are verifying, or if you believe that you have a counterfeit or tampered CGC holder, please contact Submissions@CGCcomics.com. To learn more about counterfeit or tampered CGC holders, click here.

This notation appears below the photos of the book under CGC Cert #: 4355451009

Now, take a moment to look at the cert screenshot below. Look at the notes. Then look at the book.

Seller: omni_collector Cert: 4355451009 [01/07/2024] - $575

And as I stated WAY back a few times...the pin-up books also need to be .  ASM 20 is one of the most out there missing pin-ups.  FF 2,3,4 and ASM 3 all have pin-ups also...along with many more ..not cheap books.

[comicwiz]

On 2/7/2024 at 12:01 PM, CJ Design said:

And as I stated WAY back a few times...the pin-up books also need to be .  ASM 20 is one of the most out there missing pin-ups.  FF 2,3,4 and ASM 3 all have pin-ups also...along with many more ..not cheap books.

I haven't forgotten, I'm using this information currently as I'm going through the alleged perps of the employee deception.

[CJ Design]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:04 AM, comicwiz said:

I haven't forgotten, I'm using this information currently as I'm going through the alleged perps of the employee deception.

Didn't think you forgot...verifying you were on it. I have the complete pin-up list if you happen to need it.