ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sledgehammer]

yes. Within the last three or four days, someone has come on here and shown books that were purchased from the eBay seller.

[pdags]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:15 PM, Sam T said:

If someone was able to crack a slab open and then swap out the book without CGC's own graders being able to notice the tampering, then the average customer DEFINITELY wouldn't be able to spot it.

This is the heart of the issue for me.  There's no reason we should assume the reholder step was a necesary step in the process and/or only specific books were targetted.  It's entirely possible Briva3 was "swapping" books for years without a reholdering then realized more money could be made with newer/custom labels and MJI type designations.

If we take a slightly more pessimistic view on this, no book is safe:  If one person figured it out, others probably have.  If CGC didn't detect tampering, then reholding probably wasn't needed as part of the process.

[Heronext]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:58 PM, sledgehammer said:

He definitely did present in a way that made it look as though he definitely knows who this guy is. Neither one of you want to doxx the guy and that is understandable. There was a point where you started to say his eBay seller name, and he started to interrupt you, because he thought that you were going to say his actual name.

I've watched the 3 or 4 videos and yes 9.9 says they "have the name". I was assuming it's the same BR name that has been mentioned here, which I in turn assume is an alias, accomplice or front for the actual criminal mastermind.  I'd be interested in knowing if the name WC Dave and 9.9 have is BR or another name.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:13 PM, Heronext said:

 I was assuming it's the same BR name that has been mentioned here, which I in turn assume is an alias, accomplice or front for the actual criminal mastermind.  

agreed. Maybe Dave is comfortable saying that much and it's totally understandable if he is not. 

[Sam T]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:59 PM, Iconic1s said:

The only people that would have gotten to see one of the alleged tampered with slabs would have been the CGC reholdering department.

This doesn't make any sense to me. If a scammer found himself capable of swapping out the books in a slab without any sign of tampering and wanted to make money, sending books back in for reholdering is the slowest, most complicated and least likely to succeed scam you could possibly attempt. The easiest thing to do would be to just to sell 4.0s and 5.0s as 6.0s and 7.0s.. You'd spend a couple grand on books and then you'd start a cycle of buying lower grades, cracking them and then selling them in the higher grade slab and then sending in the higher grade book (now unslabbed) back to be regarded. 

 

The real issue here is very very very simple and doesn't require conspiracy theories and leaked DM's or easily faked Ebay sales data.

 

Slabs are either tamper proof or they're not.

 

Do you think slabs are tamper proof?

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:13 PM, Heronext said:

On 12/25/2023 at 8:58 PM, sledgehammer said:

He definitely did present in a way that made it look as though he definitely knows who this guy is. Neither one of you want to doxx the guy and that is understandable. There was a point where you started to say his eBay seller name, and he started to interrupt you, because he thought that you were going to say his actual name.

I've watched the 3 or 4 videos and yes 9.9 says they "have the name". I was assuming it's the same BR name that has been mentioned here, which I in turn assume is an alias, accomplice or front for the actual criminal mastermind.  I'd be interested in knowing if the name WC Dave and 9.9 have is BR or another name.

Not directed at any one person, but I can't believe we're 9 days into this and people are still struggling to remember the simplest, earliest and most basic details. 

I'm usually the one with the bad memory.

They clearly stated this was someone well known in that niche of the hobby (MJ / Newsstand variants). They clearly stated others knew who he was.

Now several people in this thread know who it is. 

I know lots of people laughed at me when I stated that I was simply trying to 'moderate' the discussion a few days ago, but all I was trying to root out bad information, rampant speculation that was a dead end and trim down on the exaggeration. 

I'm not sure what has happened over the years, but boardies used to be able to stay on track much better.

[Sam T]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:12 PM, pdags said:

This is the heart of the issue for me.  There's no reason we should assume the reholder step was a necesary step in the process and/or only specific books were targetted

Yep, if the version that the youtube conspiracy theorists keep sharing is true then it's not reholdering that's broken, its the holders themselves.

 

I'm curious what you think of my theory that it might actually not be a CGC issue as much as a fake internet sales issue? We have no actual evidence that any of these transactions actually took place. The second an auction ends, it starts showing in "sold listings", before payment has been sent or processed. We have no reason to think any of the comics OR the buyers from these auctions actually exist.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Sam T

[Sam T]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:22 PM, VintageComics said:

They clearly stated this was someone well known in that niche of the hobby (MJ / Newsstand variants). They clearly stated others knew who he was.

People saying they have proof of something is not the same as people sharing proof of something. I'm sorry but this is sounding more and more like children on a playground playing telephone.

 

I asked if you had any proof that cracking and resealing is even possible and your response was "well someone said they knew someone who had seen it done at some time". Ya...that ain't evidence of a conspiracy. Yikes...This is getting weird. I'm gonna stop engaging with you because you seem unwilling to discuss what has actually happened and instead you're only willing to discuss the discussion of what MIGHT have happened.

 

We all KNOW that you can generate fake sales data on ebay. We've all seen it. None of us have seen anyone crack and reseal a slab without any evidence of tampering. That's the only real issue here and you refuse to make that the focus of your discussion. You keep citing anonymous claims and secret knowledge. That's weird. Good luck.

[comicwiz]

Yet another Hulk 181 Green to Blue, this time it's a Qualified 7.0 that became a Universal 8.5. 

Beginning first with the certifications screenshots, post with sold dates for each to follow this one:

4206646001 - CGC Qualifed 7.0 - Hulk 181

Became

↳ 4209759001 - CGC Universal 8.5 - Hulk 181

[comicwiz]

Most noticeable characteristics to ascertain exact match, same wrap, same spine ticks, particularly by Wolvie's forearm,non colour-breaking triangular crease on bottom right corner

4206646001 - CGC Qualifed 7.0 - Hulk 181 - Sold May 11, 2023 - $3799.99 (GD: 02/24/2023)

Became

↳ 4209759001 - CGC Universal 8.5 - Hulk 181 - Sold June 12, 2023 - $6900 (GD: 02/28/2023)

[s-dali]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:19 PM, Sam T said:

Do you think CGC slabs are tamper proof?

No.

[Iconic1s]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:19 PM, Sam T said:

This doesn't make any sense to me. If a scammer found himself capable of swapping out the books in a slab without any sign of tampering and wanted to make money, sending books back in for reholdering is the slowest, most complicated and least likely to succeed scam you could possibly attempt. The easiest thing to do would be to just to sell 4.0s and 5.0s as 6.0s and 7.0s.. You'd spend a couple grand on books and then you'd start a cycle of buying lower grades, cracking them and then selling them in the higher grade slab and then sending in the higher grade book (now unslabbed) back to be regarded. 

 

The real issue here is very very very simple and doesn't require conspiracy theories and leaked DM's or easily faked Ebay sales data.

 

Slabs are either tamper proof or they're not.

 

Do you think slabs are tamper proof?

I’ve only cracked about a half dozen and have never succeeded in doing so without it being obvious.  I have no idea if someone with better skills, or better tools, or with a different intent could pull it off enough to at least convince CGC it was either a simple case of a cracked slab, or a reholder to fix some data.  But, it looks like he either figured this out, or had someone helping him out in the reholder process.  Enough documentation (pictures) exists in this thread to show it’s happened somehow.

I think maybe he viewed the CGC reholder as a sort of plausible deniability.  If a buyer ever questioned the grade he could always say that “hey, CGC slabbed it” and he could act stupid.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Iconic1s
Meant to say “buyer”

[pdags]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:22 PM, Sam T said:

I'm curious what you think of my theory that it might actually not be a CGC issue as much as a fake internet sales issue?

I'm an Occam's Razor guy.  It's a little easier for me to believe someone figured out how to "swap" books/slabs/labels and got greedy working their way up to 9.8 MJI books than trying to manipulate markets and paying fees on their own purchases.

Continuing the thought from before... we're focusing on slabbed books that were purchased.  It's entirely possible several RAW books of the same issue were purchased, all sent to CGC for grading, the slabs swapped to maximize profit, then sold on ebay.  Assuming reholdering isn't required, there would be no duplicate entry/record in the CGC registry with this method.  This is where I would've started if I was doing this.

To me this is part of the business CGC is in.  They should always be inovating their slabs security design.  If someone figures out how to bypass it, acknowledge it, address it, and get it fixed.  They have to maintain the public's trust.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:45 PM, pdags said:

I'm an Occam's Razor guy.  It's a little easier for me to believe someone figured out how to "swap" books/slabs/labels and got greedy working their way up to 9.8 MJI books than trying to manipulate markets and paying fees on their own purchases.

Continuing the thought from before... we're focusing on slabbed books that were purchased.  It's entirely possible several RAW books of the same issue were purchased, all sent to CGC for grading, the slabs swapped to maximize profit, then sold on ebay.  Assuming reholdering isn't required, there would be no duplicate entry/record in the CGC registry with this method.  This is where I would've started if I was doing this.

To me this is part of the business CGC is in.  They should always be inovating their slabs security design.  If someone figures out how to bypass it, acknowledge it, address it, and get it fixed.  They have to maintain the public's trust.

I have thought the exact same thing but did not want to be the first to say it.

In my mind there are a lot of "practice" midgrade books out there. 

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:29 PM, comicwiz said:

Yet another Hulk 181 Green to Blue, this time it's a Qualified 7.0 that became a Universal 8.5. 

Beginning first with the certifications screenshots, post with sold dates for each to follow this one:

4206646001 - CGC Qualifed 7.0 - Hulk 181

Became

↳ 4209759001 - CGC Universal 8.5 - Hulk 181

Thanks again for this info Comicwiz. The 4 day difference in grading each book makes it really suspicious. Talk about a fast moving operation where this guy has a book teleported to him from CGC after grading, does the whole business with swapping the inner wells / labels, teleporting the book back to CGC, and then somehow having CGC graders drop everything and regrade his book before other people who have $50k Walk-Thru books sitting there. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:28 PM, Sam T said:

People saying they have proof of something is not the same as people sharing proof of something. I'm sorry but this is sounding more and more like children on a playground playing telephone.

 

I asked if you had any proof that cracking and resealing is even possible and your response was "well someone said they knew someone who had seen it done at some time". Ya...that ain't evidence of a conspiracy. Yikes...This is getting weird. I'm gonna stop engaging with you because you seem unwilling to discuss what has actually happened and instead you're only willing to discuss the discussion of what MIGHT have happened.

 

We all KNOW that you can generate fake sales data on ebay. We've all seen it. None of us have seen anyone crack and reseal a slab without any evidence of tampering. That's the only real issue here and you refuse to make that the focus of your discussion. You keep citing anonymous claims and secret knowledge. That's weird. Good luck.

You obviously haven't read the thread.

The entire reason the thread was started was because two different books had the same certification number. The entire discussion stemmed out of this and more than one book has been uncovered with the same problem.

Whether someone bought them or not is secondary. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[Sam T]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:45 PM, pdags said:

I'm an Occam's Razor guy.

I'm actually pretty sure Occam would be on my side in this 🤣

 

What's simpler, a scam that involves sitting at your computer and generating fake data with fake accounts or a scam that involves the kind of trial and error, insider information and/or physical craftsmanship that would be required to come up with a method of swapping and resealing?

 

If a person generates an ebay account with fake information and fake/stolen payment information, they can simply rack up debt on an ebay account without it mattering. Also, I don't think I've been charged auction fees for auctions that buyers don't actually pay for. When an auction ends, it pops up in "sold listings" immediately. It does not require payment actually going through. The only version of this where the ebay scammer has to pay fees is the version where he's only willing to do one kind of scam. But the guy who does counterfeiting will also do identity theft. Internet crimes are easier and simpler than real world crimes. It's has to be easier to generate fake accounts on ebay than it is figure out the secrets to CGC's encapsulation process.

[comicwiz]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:56 PM, skybolt said:

The 4 day difference in grading each book makes it really suspicious.

You and I are on the same page. 

[dikran]

Has anyone from CGC made any acknowledgment about this situation? Haven’t had the patience to go through all 125 pages…

[skybolt]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:06 PM, dikran said:

Has anyone from CGC made any acknowledgment about this situation? Haven’t had the patience to go through all 125 pages…

Not yet.