A discussion about using AI to grade comic books. 3 3

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:48 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

Even more importantly, CGC has the scans, grades and notes on hundreds of thousands of books. AI wouldn't need to be trained in real time so much as loaded with reference examples of books, especially SA to Moderns for all grades, with a multitude of examples of the cumulative defects that were (in theory) used in arriving at the final grade.

No. The grader's notes are useless in this. The machine language would need to be manually trained by a grader. Even I know this and I'm just a lowly town crier. 

On 12/28/2023 at 8:48 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I know Roy likes to wax poetic about the human element, the je ne sais quoi if it, the touch the feel of paper, the fabric of our lives, the smell, oooh that smell, can't you smell that smell, blah blah. Well that's the point, to remove the subjective bias of individual graders that governs the difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6m a 0.6 and a 9.8.

I don't know why you always need to throw shade at me to make it personal.

It has nothing to do with waxing poetic. How the book feels and smells is a part of the grading process. 

Well preserved books feel differently than books that aren't. Some of the most distinctive characteristics of the most sought after Pedigrees are how they feel and smell. 

Grading is not 2 dimensional, it's 3 dimensional. 

2 dimensional replies seem to be the norm though, so it's to be expected. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by VintageComics

[namisgr]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:47 AM, VintageComics said:

Thank you for FINALLY agreeing with on on something I've been stating from the beginning.

This is an exaggeration, as we differ in prior posts in the thread by some margin on the anticipated length of time it may take for the technology to become cost effective.  Perhaps it's the result of you mistakenly believing it's going to take technological innovation of NASA proportions to accomplish, when in fact it would be a relatively straightforward undertaking in comparison to the many thousands of examples of machine learning being developed and implemented in the sciences, coupled with robotics and imaging technologies that are highly sophisticated and existing already, requiring only customization for their brand new purpose.

Edited December 28, 2023 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:54 AM, namisgr said:

On 12/28/2023 at 10:47 AM, VintageComics said:

As JC25427N repeatedly stated, training the software is not as easy as most people think. and I can understand why.

A key word search of PubMed for the term 'machine learning' finds 136,885 peer reviewed publications in professional scientific journals.  So despite not being easy, it has become routine for those versed in the requisite programming and computer science aspects.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=machine+learning&sort=date&size=20

I'm not sure what your point is other than to confirm my point that it's not easy. 

If it was easy, they wouldn't need 136,000 peer reviewed articles (and counting) to figure it out. 

I can see the press release now...CGC welcomes it's newest grader:

 

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:57 AM, namisgr said:

On 12/28/2023 at 10:47 AM, VintageComics said:

Thank you for FINALLY agreeing with on on something I've been stating from the beginning.

This is an exaggeration, as we differ in prior posts in the thread by some margin on the anticipated length of time it may take for the technology to become cost effective.

No, I agree with your statement below.

On 12/28/2023 at 8:18 AM, namisgr said:

Making such an automated grading system cost effective is a separate matter, and may certainly take awhile.  

As I've repeatedly stated, I can see CGC using AI for some smaller aspects of grading, but I've generally been right about more things than you in the past so I'm willing to bet on myself again and take the over as to when CGC will use AI as a grading standard for grading it's books. 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:57 AM, namisgr said:

Perhaps it's the result of you mistakenly believing it's going to take technological innovation of NASA proportions to accomplish, when in fact it would be a relatively straightforward undertaking in comparison to the many thousands of examples of machine learning being developed and implemented in the sciences, coupled with robotics and imaging technologies that are highly sophisticated and existing already, requiring only customization for their brand new purpose.

Sorry, I missed your edit. That's a mischaracterization of what I said. 

What I stated repeatedly to the people who keep stating that CGC should use AI to grade comics, is that the tech is likely available at the NASA level (software and hardware) but is not cost efficient or feasible at this time. NASA can likely accomplish it because they're at the leading edge of tech, and cost is not as large of a factor.

Comic book grading is at the bottom of the totem pole, and so until the intersections of tech / cost / profitability make it feasible, it's a pipe dream. 

We've already seen from flyingdonut that the combo of software / hardware tech is limited. So if this is the cutting edge available to the public, we're still not there for all the reasons I outlined a few pages ago. 

The key here is that NASA doesn't need to worry about profit nearly as much as CGC does and that need for profit is the boundary that will limit how and when AI is used. 

Does that clarify my position better?

[jsilverjanet]

this thread smells of 2021

[namisgr]

Except that I'm done.  I've voiced my opinions to the original question posed, provided rationale with clear support from the relevant fields.  I used personal experience with a multiplicity of biological imaging technologies and from having colleagues who use robotics coupled with imaging to perform complex and life saving surgeries, including endovascular and prenatal.  I considered the approach for machine learning in this instance as analogous to training new graders, a process that is done all the time at CGC.  There comes a point where it's not in my benefit to continue.  My opinions from this point forward will have to speak for themselves, as I'm not about to be browbeaten over them, particularly by someone operating outside their sphere of knowledge.  I agree to disagree.

Edited December 28, 2023 by namisgr

[Prince Namor]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:46 PM, jsilverjanet said:

this thread smells of 2021

Being able to smell 2021 would take space age knowledge that won't happen until all of humanity is enslaved by Cyberdyne Systems.

I know this because I've been right about more stuff than you on chat forums.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Prince Namor
bunyons

[Buzzetta]

This thread is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!

[CJ Design]

Smells like Teen Spirit...or Updog....

[CAHokie]

 

He’ll be back…. 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:48 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

oooh that smell, can't you smell that smell,

Just what are we talking about here?