Stolen art alert Peanuts! 5 5

[ThothAmon]

Sellers story is laughable. If it were in my possession I’d return it tout-suite before the rest of my business practices were examined and no I wouldn’t change the title of the thread, it seems appropriate as is. Edit. Maybe Buzzetta can answer this - could a lost item really be turned around for USPS resale within a couple months of original loss?

Edited January 2 by ThothAmon

[KirbyCollector]

Perhaps it is time to standardize use of smart tags for art. The Apple Air Tag is $29; Samsung's is on sale right now for $25. That's a small price to pay for peace of mind, plus the buyer can always send it back to you for reuse. As for what to do when the air tag is showing the package somewhere it should not be, the $200-$300 to fly somewhere and engage a local police officer (or private investigator for $100) to knock on a door is not a heavy lift (heck, maybe it is sitting at the back of the local PO, forgotten). If the person admits they have it, but states it was purchased under legit circumstances,  they will have to show proof. If they can't or won't, the local prosecutor then has probable cause for a search warrant and can seize the art while an investigation takes place (and even if the person can show proof of sale, it still might lead to a seizure b/c they were not the intended recipient). Frankly, if the seller is serving as a fence for stolen goods, they may just give it up to avoid any further trouble.

I know none of this sounds fun, but ultimately this is the only way to handle high value theft in a rapid manner.

Edited January 2 by KirbyCollector

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:34 AM, KirbyCollector said:

Perhaps it is time to standardize use of smart tags for art. The Apple Air Tag is $29; Samsung's is on sale right now for $25. That's a small price to pay for peace of mind, plus the buyer can always send it back to you for reuse. As for what to do when the air tag is showing the package somewhere it should not be, the $200-$300 to fly somewhere and engage a local police officer (or private investigator for $100) to knock on a door is not a heavy lift (heck, maybe it is sitting at the back of the local PO, forgotten). If the person admits they have it, but states it was purchased under legit circumstances,  they will have to show proof. If they can't or won't, the local prosecutor then has probable cause for a search warrant and can seize the art while an investigation takes place (and even if the person can show proof of sale, it still might lead to a seizure b/c they were not the intended recipient). Frankly, if the seller is serving as a fence for stolen goods, they may just give it up to avoid any further trouble.

I know none of this sounds fun, but ultimately this is the only way to handle high value theft in a rapid manner.

Except that, as a former long time prosecutor for a large metropolitan area, I can assure you the chances of prosecution are slim to none. A search warrant? When pink elephants fly. The ONLY way this would get any attention is if a large enough group of complainants stormed the prosecutor’s office, and left the prosecutor no choice. 

[adamstrange]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:19 AM, Buzzetta said:

Please review the details as to what the original poster wrote.  He even suggested that he change the title of the thread to "missing" and not "stolen" as the package was very likely NOT stolen if the seller did indeed pick it up at auction. 

The USPS has something called the USPS Mail Recovery Center. 

https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-the-USPS-Mail-Recovery-Center

I will cite the following line, "Undeliverable mail determined to be of value, meaning the content is worth more than $25.00 ($20.00 for mailpieces containing cash), will be held for 60 days if the mailpiece is barcoded, or 30 days for non-barcoded mailpieces." 

• The original poster said that the package has been missing for almost three months in this post earlier in the thread.   
• The original poster states that the eBay seller purchased the item through auction. 

If the Post Office determines that for whatever reason, be it mechanical, human error, act of God or whatever reason that a package is undeliverable, they are going to auction the contents of your package off to the highest bidder.   This is noted in the FAQ for the Recovery Center in the line, "Occasionally, the MRC will auction off the items held. More information on upcoming auctions, including locations and directions, can be found at United States Postal Service® auctions."

Here is the site that lists times and dates of upcoming auctions if you would LEGALLY like to buy the contents of other people's mail.  

https://www.govdeals.com/

 

The post office determined that his package was undeliverable and sometime between three months, whoever had the contents sent it off to https://www.govdeals.com/ where people bid on it. 

I briefly went through closed auctions and found that they have conducted several auctions in the last three months around the Florida area.  I even tried looking for the piece but cannot find it and to be honest I am not going through 89,000 items that they have auctioned over the last three months.  There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to how they categorize their own listings as a Michael Jordan Basketball card went for $84 and that turned up when I did a search for "art". 

 

 

Nothing that you cite makes the piece unrecoverable.  Abandoned property can be sold in a variety of situations and, in most of those the owner is SOL.  It can also be reclaimed by the owner in a variety of situations.  I am not a lawyer and don't know the relevant law, but, if the piece was valuable or important to me, I would chase it down if I knew where it was.

[KirbyCollector]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:47 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Except that, as a former long time prosecutor for a large metropolitan area, I can assure you the chances of prosecution are slim to none.

NY, LA, Chicago, yes understood. But anywhere else it is worth a shot. I live in a county of 400,000 people and I guarantee a $10K theft will get attention, especially if you gift wrap it for them. Again, it might not even take that -- a visit by a uniform to a door can work wonders if handled properly.

Btw a search warrant is not that hard outside of California lol. The simplest one I ever did was in conjunction with the Manhattan DA's Office -- one page! I never knew a one page SW was possible, coming from the federal level.

Edited January 2 by KirbyCollector

[batman_fan]

On 1/1/2024 at 8:14 PM, westform said:

I don’t like that story… for obvious reasons. But good for you nonetheless. 

This just happened a 2nd time for $2k comic book.  Just a signature required delivery that no one was home for.  The tracking number on the attempted delivery slip didn’t match anything in their system.  I had to call multiple times and finally waited for 20 minutes on hold.  The lady said the delivery driver probably didn’t scan the bar code on the slip so it was associated with the package but try going to the post office and they may have it.  Sure enough, it was at the post office.

[KirbyCollector]

Will add one more thing, you never know unless you try with law enforcement. In 2003 or 2004, I took a complaint call from someone who had sent money to someone else for OA -- and the recipient disappeared. I thought it was a cool call, considering I knew what OA was, so I did some digging... then made some calls... then found the thief in under an hour (he had used a fake address but forgot to use a different phone #). He wasn't expecting someone like me to call, so he had half a heart attack and remitted the money the next day. The sender was thrilled, I felt like Superman, great, right? Wrong... I did all that work without officially opening a case... which got me in hot water and led to 5 days "on the bricks" (the old expression for suspended w/o pay). So good for the sender not so good for me

[westform]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:48 AM, batman_fan said:

This just happened a 2nd time for $2k comic book.  Just a signature required delivery that no one was home for.  The tracking number on the attempted delivery slip didn’t match anything in their system.  I had to call multiple times and finally waited for 20 minutes on hold.  The lady said the delivery driver probably didn’t scan the bar code on the slip so it was associated with the package but try going to the post office and they may have it.  Sure enough, it was at the post office.

About a month ago, I was able to reach a person at my local branch and they said the last trace of the package was in Bethpaige NY. So I dont think it ended up at my local postoffice. Plus, my delivery guy knows me and a good solid guy. 

[DougC]

Looks like the seller ended the auction yesterday.

[pemart1966]

On 1/2/2024 at 9:55 AM, KirbyCollector said:

Will add one more thing, you never know unless you try with law enforcement. In 2003 or 2004, I took a complaint call from someone who had sent money to someone else for OA -- and the recipient disappeared. I thought it was a cool call, considering I knew what OA was, so I did some digging... then made some calls... then found the thief in under an hour (he had used a fake address but forgot to use a different phone #). He wasn't expecting someone like me to call, so he had half a heart attack and remitted the money the next day. The sender was thrilled, I felt like Superman, great, right? Wrong... I did all that work without officially opening a case... which got me in hot water and led to 5 days "on the bricks" (the old expression for suspended w/o pay). So good for the sender not so good for me

As they say "No good deed goes unpunished."  

[Phill the Governor]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:06 AM, westform said:

About a month ago, I was able to reach a person at my local branch and they said the last trace of the package was in Bethpaige NY. So I dont think it ended up at my local postoffice. Plus, my delivery guy knows me and a good solid guy. 

Were you refunded for the art since it was never received? That's the most important question, otherwise this falls back onto the person you bought it from.

[westform]

On 1/2/2024 at 11:30 AM, Phill the Governor said:

Were you refunded for the art since it was never received? That's the most important question, otherwise this falls back onto the person you bought it from.

I have been refunded. But the seller, Monty, is a fellow collector and friend and I will help him however I can to recover $ or the art. I am contacting the postoffice and the ebay seller to try and work something out at this point. I am still in shock that the usps will sell your stuff.

[adamstrange]

On 1/2/2024 at 1:38 PM, westform said:

 I am still in shock that the usps will sell your stuff.

Stuff happens and if a package is damaged such that they can't determine who to deliver it to, it's not surprising they will eventually sell it.

The interior of a package should include the recipient's address.  If that was the case with your package, then it sounds like either someone got lazy or some hanky-panky occurred.

If the US Post Office paid out for an insurance claim then they most likely own the art.  Federal law would probably govern what happens when an object is recovered and getting it back may be more complicated than it was for Nic Cage, where state law prevailed.

A demand letter, written by a lawyer to the eBay seller, might pressure them to hold the art in safety and provide evidence of their USPS purchase.

[shadroch]

On 12/31/2023 at 10:17 PM, JollyComics said:

Does he have a proof?  This is unheard of.

No, it is not.  I had a box split open in transit, and it arrived with half the contents missing.  Luckily, I had photos and an invoice. Months later, something showed up on ebay and the seller had bought it from a USPS auction.  He offered me a small discount.

[shadroch]

On 1/2/2024 at 6:10 AM, ThothAmon said:

Sellers story is laughable. If it were in my possession I’d return it tout-suite before the rest of my business practices were examined and no I wouldn’t change the title of the thread, it seems appropriate as is. Edit. Maybe Buzzetta can answer this - could a lost item really be turned around for USPS resale within a couple months of original loss?

Lost mail and undeliverable stuff is sent to a facility near Atlanta and auctioned off regularly.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:10 PM, adamstrange said:

Stuff happens and if a package is damaged such that they can't determine who to deliver it to, it's not surprising they will eventually sell it.

The interior of a package should include the recipient's address.  If that was the case with your package, then it sounds like either someone got lazy or some hanky-panky occurred.

If the US Post Office paid out for an insurance claim then they most likely own the art.  Federal law would probably govern what happens when an object is recovered and getting it back may be more complicated than it was for Nic Cage, where state law prevailed.

A demand letter, written by a lawyer to the eBay seller, might pressure them to hold the art in safety and provide evidence of their USPS purchase.

I'd be grateful if you could read our PM string. I messaged you and also quoted you yesterday. **URGENT**

[shadroch]

On 1/2/2024 at 6:10 AM, ThothAmon said:

Sellers story is laughable. If it were in my possession I’d return it tout-suite before the rest of my business practices were examined and no I wouldn’t change the title of the thread, it seems appropriate as is. Edit. Maybe Buzzetta can answer this - could a lost item really be turned around for USPS resale within a couple months of original loss?

Lost mail and undeliverable stuff is sent to a facility near Atlanta and auctioned off regularly.  They used to be local. They'd hold them in a hanger at JFK Airport every few months but then they centralized them. 

If he has a receipt, he owns the stuff. The original owner's beef would be with the Post Office, but he has already been paid.

Edited January 2 by shadroch

[Buzzetta]

On 1/2/2024 at 5:22 PM, shadroch said:

Lost mail and undeliverable stuff is sent to a facility near Atlanta and auctioned off regularly.  They used to be local. They'd hold them in a hanger at JFK Airport every few months but then they centralized them. 

If he has a receipt, he owns the stuff. The original owner's beef would be with the Post Office, but he has already been paid.

Yup.  

Buyer's money has been refunded.  He has no claim to the item at this point.

Seller, if he has been paid out through any insurance he took out on it has no claim. 

What I am most surprised at is that more people do not know about this. 

• Fed Ex sends their undeliverable / unmarked / unclaimed / damaged items to auction. 
• USPS sends their undeliverable / unmarked / unclaimed / damaged items to auction. 
• UPS sends their undeliverable / unmarked / unclaimed / damaged items to auction. 
• The airlines auction off unclaimed / undeliverable / unmarked luggage. 

Nobody values, or keeps your "stuff" indefinitely.  If they feel they have held onto it long enough it is theirs.  They will pay out any claims that they owe on the items and then all unclaimed items are sold off to generate revenue. 

 

Airline luggage seems to go to one site while TSA confiscated materials go to GovDeals. 

 

[westform]

On 1/2/2024 at 3:22 PM, shadroch said:

Lost mail and undeliverable stuff is sent to a facility near Atlanta and auctioned off regularly.  They used to be local. They'd hold them in a hanger at JFK Airport every few months but then they centralized them. 

If he has a receipt, he owns the stuff. The original owner's beef would be with the Post Office, but he has already been paid.

He has not been paid.

[Phill the Governor]

On 1/2/2024 at 5:44 PM, westform said:

He has not been paid.

 

If they don't have insurance, this may be a matter of them contacting the current person who has it in their possession and making a case. Having them explain that this has all happened within a 100 day window and the case for the package they "purchased" is still open indicating the relative short timeframe.

Surely current person who has it paid pennies on the dollar for the package so they could do the moral thing and sell it back for their cost. But anyone in that position would understandably be hesitant to pass of a perceived windfall even given the full story. Could be possible your friend could take legal action against USPS, especially if this is an inside job. I've heard of cases in the past where postal workers are the in guy and get paid off to either steal or relocate packages so they never get delivered and they split a cut with the person who's going to sell it. This is such a high valued piece, it statistically seems unlikely this happened by accident. Was there ANY indication on the outside of the package of what was inside?

Also, someone earlier in the thread said the current owner had other like-pieces for sale. Can that be confirmed despite the possibility of them removing those listings too to cover their tracks?

Edited January 2 by Phill the Governor