Seemingly Criminal HA Item Descriptions 1 1

[jaybuck43]

Long story short, I was looking for some comps for my insurance company and found a piece I had been offered several times had hammered at more than 10x the price I was offered it at.  Needless to say, I was shocked.  When I saw the item description I understood why.  It led me to look at some other pieces and I saw that Heritage has been playing VERY fast and loose with item descriptions.  To me, this example is criminal.  Here's the piece:

And now Heritage's description: 

Kevin Eastman - Casey Jones Illustration Original Art (1985). The first published artwork of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle character Casey Jones! Created in 1984 by Turtles creators Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, Casey was planned as the second human "family" character for the book, with Eastman refining the look of the character. He made his first story appearance in the one-shot, Raphael, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle #1 (Mirage, 1985), but before this issue was released, the inks of the artwork we are offering here was published in Comics Interview #27 (1985). Here is what Eastman said about the inclusion in the fanzine: "The piece in question here was drawn in 1985 - a year after Casey was created - this was simply one of the many convention pin-ups done (usually drawn and colored before and brought to a convention to sell) around that time, but we always kept photocopies to use for PR reasons - sent along as a press release or part of an interview - so that is most likely how it got in the Fanzine." The ink art was also included in Turtlemania Special #1 (Metropolis Pub., 1986). This cool piece of Turtles history comes with documentation about the piece and a copy of Comics Interview #27. Mixed media on 8" x 11" illustration board. Light toning and handling wear. Signed by Eastman at the bottom. In Excellent condition.

Ok, let's dissect this.  First sentence, heritage claims this is the first "published artwork" of Casey.  Now they're correct that this artwork was twice published, once in Comics Interview #27 and again in Turtlemania.  But those books came out in September 1985 and in 1986 respectively.  Raphael #1, the comic Casey appears in was published April 1985, 5 months earlier.  Shockingly, Heritage invents a history where Comics Interview #27 was published first.  

The weirdest part is that Heritage has even scanned and INCLUDES documentation that contradicts everything they've written in their description.  The documentation clearly states that Raphael #1 was printed first, followed by Comics Interview #27, and that this piece is the first PAINTING of the character to be published, significantly different than the first artwork.

This piece hammered for $20,000, ostensibly because some individual thought they had purchased the first published appearance of the character.  They have not.  Anyone else have seen any similarly egregious examples?

[cstojano]

I assume consignors write a good bit of these descriptions and they aren't checked. 

[Michael Browning]

On 1/21/2024 at 2:21 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Long story short, I was looking for some comps for my insurance company and found a piece I had been offered several times had hammered at more than 10x the price I was offered it at.  Needless to say, I was shocked.  When I saw the item description I understood why.  It led me to look at some other pieces and I saw that Heritage has been playing VERY fast and loose with item descriptions.  To me, this example is criminal.  Here's the piece:

And now Heritage's description: 

Kevin Eastman - Casey Jones Illustration Original Art (1985). The first published artwork of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle character Casey Jones! Created in 1984 by Turtles creators Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, Casey was planned as the second human "family" character for the book, with Eastman refining the look of the character. He made his first story appearance in the one-shot, Raphael, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle #1 (Mirage, 1985), but before this issue was released, the inks of the artwork we are offering here was published in Comics Interview #27 (1985). Here is what Eastman said about the inclusion in the fanzine: "The piece in question here was drawn in 1985 - a year after Casey was created - this was simply one of the many convention pin-ups done (usually drawn and colored before and brought to a convention to sell) around that time, but we always kept photocopies to use for PR reasons - sent along as a press release or part of an interview - so that is most likely how it got in the Fanzine." The ink art was also included in Turtlemania Special #1 (Metropolis Pub., 1986). This cool piece of Turtles history comes with documentation about the piece and a copy of Comics Interview #27. Mixed media on 8" x 11" illustration board. Light toning and handling wear. Signed by Eastman at the bottom. In Excellent condition.

Ok, let's dissect this.  First sentence, heritage claims this is the first "published artwork" of Casey.  Now they're correct that this artwork was twice published, once in Comics Interview #27 and again in Turtlemania.  But those books came out in September 1985 and in 1986 respectively.  Raphael #1, the comic Casey appears in was published April 1985, 5 months earlier.  Shockingly, Heritage invents a history where Comics Interview #27 was published first.  

The weirdest part is that Heritage has even scanned and INCLUDES documentation that contradicts everything they've written in their description.  The documentation clearly states that Raphael #1 was printed first, followed by Comics Interview #27, and that this piece is the first PAINTING of the character to be published, significantly different than the first artwork.

This piece hammered for $20,000, ostensibly because some individual thought they had purchased the first published appearance of the character.  They have not.  Anyone else have seen any similarly egregious examples?

I don't think there's anything criminal about the description, which was probably taken directly from the consignor. I find mistakes all the time in their listings and I send them an email with the correct information and they change the listing. They've done it every single time I've emailed them. If they were up to no good, I would think they, like a lot of eBay sellers, would just ignore my messages and go ahead with the incorrect information.

[1classics]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:21 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Long story short, I was looking for some comps for my insurance company and found a piece I had been offered several times had hammered at more than 10x the price I was offered it at.  Needless to say, I was shocked.  When I saw the item description I understood why.  It led me to look at some other pieces and I saw that Heritage has been playing VERY fast and loose with item descriptions.  To me, this example is criminal.  Here's the piece:

And now Heritage's description: 

Kevin Eastman - Casey Jones Illustration Original Art (1985). The first published artwork of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle character Casey Jones! Created in 1984 by Turtles creators Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, Casey was planned as the second human "family" character for the book, with Eastman refining the look of the character. He made his first story appearance in the one-shot, Raphael, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle #1 (Mirage, 1985), but before this issue was released, the inks of the artwork we are offering here was published in Comics Interview #27 (1985). Here is what Eastman said about the inclusion in the fanzine: "The piece in question here was drawn in 1985 - a year after Casey was created - this was simply one of the many convention pin-ups done (usually drawn and colored before and brought to a convention to sell) around that time, but we always kept photocopies to use for PR reasons - sent along as a press release or part of an interview - so that is most likely how it got in the Fanzine." The ink art was also included in Turtlemania Special #1 (Metropolis Pub., 1986). This cool piece of Turtles history comes with documentation about the piece and a copy of Comics Interview #27. Mixed media on 8" x 11" illustration board. Light toning and handling wear. Signed by Eastman at the bottom. In Excellent condition.

Ok, let's dissect this.  First sentence, heritage claims this is the first "published artwork" of Casey.  Now they're correct that this artwork was twice published, once in Comics Interview #27 and again in Turtlemania.  But those books came out in September 1985 and in 1986 respectively.  Raphael #1, the comic Casey appears in was published April 1985, 5 months earlier.  Shockingly, Heritage invents a history where Comics Interview #27 was published first.  

The weirdest part is that Heritage has even scanned and INCLUDES documentation that contradicts everything they've written in their description.  The documentation clearly states that Raphael #1 was printed first, followed by Comics Interview #27, and that this piece is the first PAINTING of the character to be published, significantly different than the first artwork.

This piece hammered for $20,000, ostensibly because some individual thought they had purchased the first published appearance of the character.  They have not.  Anyone else have seen any similarly egregious examples?

Hi I researched this piece as well and it is his first published artwork, it predates Raphael #1 as it was published in Comics Interview 27, which clearly states in there that Raphael #1 was coming out later in the year. As noted and perhaps more importantly it was published in Turtlemania #1. When this was offered years ago, I don't think it was originally marketed as "first published", it wasn't even mentioned about Comics Interview, the more important note was Turtlemania publication. But times have changed and I think the more importance has gone to "first published" or of "1st appearance" etc. What I questioned was the black and white vs the paints, but HA reached out to confirm with Eastman this is the original pencil and ink and was painted shortly after, as he made a copy before paint and used it for publication. So comic wise, I suppose it will be considered Raphael #1 first published, but overall and perhaps to certain collectors this indeed did come first. I agree with Michael in that it looks like they included any and all documents from the seller as well as doing their own research in going directly to the source being Eastman to confirm the nature and origin of this piece. Hope this helps, but I too don't find this as misinformation or nothing near "criminal". 

[jaybuck43]

On 1/21/2024 at 5:03 PM, 1classics said:

Hi I researched this piece as well and it is his first published artwork, it predates Raphael #1 as it was published in Comics Interview 27, which clearly states in there that Raphael #1 was coming out later in the year. As noted and perhaps more importantly it was published in Turtlemania #1. When this was offered years ago, I don't think it was originally marketed as "first published", it wasn't even mentioned about Comics Interview, the more important note was Turtlemania publication. But times have changed and I think the more importance has gone to "first published" or of "1st appearance" etc. What I questioned was the black and white vs the paints, but HA reached out to confirm with Eastman this is the original pencil and ink and was painted shortly after, as he made a copy before paint and used it for publication. So comic wise, I suppose it will be considered Raphael #1 first published, but overall and perhaps to certain collectors this indeed did come first. I agree with Michael in that it looks like they included any and all documents from the seller as well as doing their own research in going directly to the source being Eastman to confirm the nature and origin of this piece. Hope this helps, but I too don't find this as misinformation or nothing near "criminal". 

Do you have a scan of the interview? I recall that book coming out in September, and the next issue even talks about xfactor, which marvel did not announce and solicit until the end of 1985. If I recall correctly, CI was a near monthly publication, so while the interview may have taken place with E and L before the release date, I don’t believe it was published before raph #1.

[1classics]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:57 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Do you have a scan of the interview? I recall that book coming out in September, and the next issue even talks about xfactor, which marvel did not announce and solicit until the end of 1985. If I recall correctly, CI was a near monthly publication, so while the interview may have taken place with E and L before the release date, I don’t believe it was published before raph #1.

Hi Jay,

I thought I had actual scans, but here's what I found attached. First attachment "Comic Book Invest" clearly has this as predating Raphael #1 and why this book is a "wise" investment. Second attachment is directly from the interview which states at least at the time of the interview TMNT #3 was coming out or just released, which would've been early '85? GCD has TMNT #3 released 4/1/85 and unfortunately both CGC and GCD don't list a definitive date for Raphael #1's release, but #3 still would be prior to Raphael #1. Which then makes sense if the art was included and later painted by Eastman sometime in '85. If I do recall and what both Eastman and Laird eluded to in the beginning being independent publishing, having significant delays an there was possible mention of Raphael #1 launching later as planned? I believe in the same interview they talk about the release of Raphael #1 coming later in the year, which I agree would be odd for a magazine to publish and advertise a release of a book that was clearly out already. It's certainly a tough one to conclude since both the Comics Interview and Raphael were not dated and CGC and GCD don't really help either. Either way, it looks to be really close, but seeing this art was included in an interview before Raphael #1, I could see where this is labeled pre-Raphael #1? 

I should also add this isn't Casey's first drawing as there are concept art pieces in Eastman's artobiography dated 1984, but were not published until the early 2000's when the book was published. But that's not what we're discussing here, ultimately I could see with people listing on ebay as his first published appearance as well as investment sites, it's hard to change the public eye much like the Hulk 180/181 debate, even though one is a comic vs a fanzine publication LOL. Hope this helps, but doesn't look so black and white and certainly not "criminal" in approach. 

[PhilipB2k17]

On 1/21/2024 at 2:21 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Long story short, I was looking for some comps for my insurance company and found a piece I had been offered several times had hammered at more than 10x the price I was offered it at.  Needless to say, I was shocked.  When I saw the item description I understood why.  It led me to look at some other pieces and I saw that Heritage has been playing VERY fast and loose with item descriptions.  To me, this example is criminal.  Here's the piece:

And now Heritage's description: 

Kevin Eastman - Casey Jones Illustration Original Art (1985). The first published artwork of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle character Casey Jones! Created in 1984 by Turtles creators Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, Casey was planned as the second human "family" character for the book, with Eastman refining the look of the character. He made his first story appearance in the one-shot, Raphael, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle #1 (Mirage, 1985), but before this issue was released, the inks of the artwork we are offering here was published in Comics Interview #27 (1985). Here is what Eastman said about the inclusion in the fanzine: "The piece in question here was drawn in 1985 - a year after Casey was created - this was simply one of the many convention pin-ups done (usually drawn and colored before and brought to a convention to sell) around that time, but we always kept photocopies to use for PR reasons - sent along as a press release or part of an interview - so that is most likely how it got in the Fanzine." The ink art was also included in Turtlemania Special #1 (Metropolis Pub., 1986). This cool piece of Turtles history comes with documentation about the piece and a copy of Comics Interview #27. Mixed media on 8" x 11" illustration board. Light toning and handling wear. Signed by Eastman at the bottom. In Excellent condition.

Ok, let's dissect this.  First sentence, heritage claims this is the first "published artwork" of Casey.  Now they're correct that this artwork was twice published, once in Comics Interview #27 and again in Turtlemania.  But those books came out in September 1985 and in 1986 respectively.  Raphael #1, the comic Casey appears in was published April 1985, 5 months earlier.  Shockingly, Heritage invents a history where Comics Interview #27 was published first.  

The weirdest part is that Heritage has even scanned and INCLUDES documentation that contradicts everything they've written in their description.  The documentation clearly states that Raphael #1 was printed first, followed by Comics Interview #27, and that this piece is the first PAINTING of the character to be published, significantly different than the first artwork.

This piece hammered for $20,000, ostensibly because some individual thought they had purchased the first published appearance of the character.  They have not.  Anyone else have seen any similarly egregious examples?

Nothing on this scale, but I recently won a page at Heritage with an incorrect story and publication attribution. It was a page from the Trigan Empire series by Don Lawrence. Granted, it's kind of hard for an American compay to keep track of which 1960's British Childern's adventure magazine published these stories and which story it was from. But I managed to figure out that it was misattributed fairly quickly. These stories are all published online.

[jaybuck43]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:59 PM, 1classics said:

Hi Jay,

I thought I had actual scans, but here's what I found attached. First attachment "Comic Book Invest" clearly has this as predating Raphael #1 and why this book is a "wise" investment. Second attachment is directly from the interview which states at least at the time of the interview TMNT #3 was coming out or just released, which would've been early '85? GCD has TMNT #3 released 4/1/85 and unfortunately both CGC and GCD don't list a definitive date for Raphael #1's release, but #3 still would be prior to Raphael #1. Which then makes sense if the art was included and later painted by Eastman sometime in '85. If I do recall and what both Eastman and Laird eluded to in the beginning being independent publishing, having significant delays an there was possible mention of Raphael #1 launching later as planned? I believe in the same interview they talk about the release of Raphael #1 coming later in the year, which I agree would be odd for a magazine to publish and advertise a release of a book that was clearly out already. It's certainly a tough one to conclude since both the Comics Interview and Raphael were not dated and CGC and GCD don't really help either. Either way, it looks to be really close, but seeing this art was included in an interview before Raphael #1, I could see where this is labeled pre-Raphael #1? 

I should also add this isn't Casey's first drawing as there are concept art pieces in Eastman's artobiography dated 1984, but were not published until the early 2000's when the book was published. But that's not what we're discussing here, ultimately I could see with people listing on ebay as his first published appearance as well as investment sites, it's hard to change the public eye much like the Hulk 180/181 debate, even though one is a comic vs a fanzine publication LOL. Hope this helps, but doesn't look so black and white and certainly not "criminal" in approach. 

#3 is tough.  Famously, there is the the NYCC "Variant" which had the wrong color on Laird's Photo because the printer ran the covers wrong. Those copies were used to sell at NYCC which was held on march 16-17th 1985.  Since the covers were printed separately than the book back then (two different printers) you can assume that all of the interiors were done and waiting for the covers.  But the book was "out" in March 1985, with a final release in April.  

Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if this interview was done in January/February 1985 and then published later in the year.  Take a look at the next issue:

Given that they were coming out near monthly, there's just no way a fanzine is running this before marvel talked about it, and no way were they doing that in early 85.

[Bronty]

The interview is easily searchable on google. 

A) #3 appears to have been out at the time of the interview;

B) the rest is ambiguous due to the word choices in the relevant interview;

C) the piece in question doesn't seem to appear in the interview.    There is a Raphael image in the interview but this is not it.    Perhaps it was published elsewhere in the book but that does seem unlikely off hand.   

D) Clearly they haven't done enough diligence on this description and they do make mistakes sometimes.    I'll leave it to others to determine if that's criminal.   Strikes me as a strong word choice but this also seems lacking on their end.

 

Edited January 22 by Bronty

[TMNT]

It's so funny seeing my letter in there from 2018... 

This piece was made after Raphael #1. Eastman told me back then and is still saying as much in the HA. The pen and ink were then photocopied and used in comics interview and later in Turtlemania. The actual pen and ink board was then painted sometime in 85, possibly in 86. The painted image as seen above has never been actually published, only it's B&W pre paint version was. 

I can't say I agree at all with HAs description. But at least they kept my letter and put Eastmans thoughts as well so hopefully the buyer just really liked the image. It is an early piece, just not the first published artwork as purported. In my eyes, if we're talking "firsts" :

1. First drawings of Casey 1984, various sketches exist as they worked out the final look. 

2. First published appearance period, Raphael #1 Cover. Has his classic hockey mask on and bat. 

3. First published appearance in story, was Raphael #1, pg 7 where we see him maskless on his couch watching TV before donning his gear 

4. First painting, this piece we've been talking about (unpublished as a painting)

Edited January 22 by TMNT
Spelling

[1classics]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:01 AM, Bronty said:

The interview is easily searchable on google. 

A) #3 appears to have been out at the time of the interview;

B) the rest is ambiguous due to the word choices in the relevant interview;

C) the piece in question doesn't seem to appear in the interview.    There is a Raphael image in the interview but this is not it.    Perhaps it was published elsewhere in the book but that does seem unlikely off hand.   

D) Clearly they haven't done enough diligence on this description and they do make mistakes sometimes.    I'll leave it to others to determine if that's criminal.   Strikes me as a strong word choice but this also seems lacking on their end.

 

Yeah it's certainly in the Comics Interview #27 (see attached), and agreed it could be "ambiguous" in regards to what came first ultimately. All I was saying above was with other investment sites, people on ebay and elsewhere all saying this came first, it may be hard to change the narrative at this point. I too agree with Browning in that HA's actions were not "criminal", it's clear that they both came out around the same time, but perhaps seeing the interview may have taken place months before print, maybe the pinup drawing was done before Raphael #1? Or since we don't have definitive dates for publication or release on either, was it around the same time or one month to the next? But again if we're talking about first published comic appearance, there's no debate there its Raphael #1, as this is ultimately a fanzine. 

One other thing to mention that was discussed originally is value. If this was auctioned with clink in 2014 and sold for north of $2k+ at the time, nearly a decade later selling for multiples is quite common. We see it all the time when there's that much time lapsed in comic art auctions. You have to remember in 2014 early Turtles pages, even #3-5 were selling for around this range where as now good luck to get them less than 5 figures for a decent one. At the end of the day as Browning said, do your own research and come to your own conclusions prior to auction. This doesn't seem so black and white to me especially based on the facts with the interview time frame for tmnt and mention of the book being released later.  

Edited January 22 by 1classics

[Bronty]

On 1/22/2024 at 12:29 PM, 1classics said:

 

One other thing to mention that was discussed originally is value. If this was auctioned with clink in 2014 and sold for north of $2k+ at the time, nearly a decade later selling for multiples is quite common.

agreed 100% - I remember pages from Raphael 1 with Casey Jones panels being sold by Eastman for 5k ea or so, what maybe six years ago?   (I might have that wrong but somewhere in there) and now those pages are 25k on HA. 

[1classics]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:53 AM, Bronty said:

agreed 100% - I remember pages from Raphael 1 with Casey Jones panels being sold by Eastman for 5k ea or so, what maybe six years ago?   (I might have that wrong but somewhere in there) and now those pages are 25k on HA. 

Yeah those days are long gone... If you or anyone else had an opportunity to buy this painted piece for a few k years ago they should've done it as Eastman early TMNT art just isn't coming up anymore or if it is it's commanding high prices. And yeah you're right, the last couple pieces from that story sold respectfully at $25-26k over the last few months. So this piece hammered at $19.200, about 30% less than the recent Raphael #1 art in comparison, so sounds about right imo for what it is...

Edited January 22 by 1classics

[jaybuck43]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:53 AM, TMNT said:

It's so funny seeing my letter in there from 2018... 

This piece was made after Raphael #1. Eastman told me back then and is still saying as much in the HA. The pen and ink were then photocopied and used in comics interview and later in Turtlemania. The actual pen and ink board was then painted sometime in 85, possibly in 86. The painted image as seen above has never been actually published, only it's B&W pre paint version was. 

I can't say I agree at all with HAs description. But at least they kept my letter and put Eastmans thoughts as well so hopefully the buyer just really liked the image. It is an early piece, just not the first published artwork as purported. In my eyes, if we're talking "firsts" :

1. First drawings of Casey 1984, various sketches exist as they worked out the final look. 

2. First published appearance period, Raphael #1 Cover. Has his classic hockey mask on and bat. 

3. First published appearance in story, was Raphael #1, pg 7 where we see him maskless on his couch watching TV before donning his gear 

4. First painting, this piece we've been talking about (unpublished as a painting)

He's seen maskless and masked on Page 7,  I should know  it's hanging next to me right now....

.

Kevin had numerous sketches of Casey from 84 that were never published, but later ended up in his artobiography.  Here is that page.