Why should a key issue be worth so much more than a non key issue? 1 1

[Albert Tatlock]

On 2/10/2024 at 3:47 PM, Nick Furious said:

Tales to Astonish 13 was just another Tales to Astonish comic until Guardians of the Galaxy.  And then it became the first appearance of Groot...a character of significance, giving the book historical significance. 

At the time TTA # 13 was published, Groot was a character of no significance.

The same as TTA # 27.

What if the first Ant Man appearance had featured a different scientist, not Henry Pym, but with roughly the same powers?

Then TTA # 27 would be worth the same today as # 26 and # 28.

The subject under discussion here has more to do with human psychology than the comic book industry.

Why pay many times more for issue A of a title than issue B, when both are circulating in equal quantities?

FOMO has not yet been mentioned, but it is surely a driver. 

 

[thehumantorch]

On 2/11/2024 at 5:41 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

At the time TTA # 13 was published, Groot was a character of no significance.

The same as TTA # 27.

What if the first Ant Man appearance had featured a different scientist, not Henry Pym, but with roughly the same powers?

Then TTA # 27 would be worth the same today as # 26 and # 28.

The subject under discussion here has more to do with human psychology than the comic book industry.

Why pay many times more for issue A of a title than issue B, when both are circulating in equal quantities?

FOMO has not yet been mentioned, but it is surely a driver. 

 

Because prices are also affected by demand.  Demand increases if the cover is classic or appealing or if by a popular creator - think J S Campbell or Schomburg as examples.  Demand increases if the writing or art is more popular - think BA Uncanny X-men as an example.  Demand increases if something memorable happened like the first appearance or the death of a character - how can we not understand that there's only one first appearance of Spider-man and that it's more important than his 200th appearance.  

[thehumantorch]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:25 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There are some strange things happening here.

Consider the case of Tales To Astonish # 13.

Before the release of Guardians Of The Galaxy, # 13 was worth exactly the same as # 12 and #14.

That changed almost overnight. Who decided that # 13 should go up in value? The story is a run-of the mill Lee/Kirby pre-superhero, Groot is a very minor character, and the supply is not out of line with the others of the period.

What made fans decide that they could no longer live without a copy of TTA# 13?

And who took advantage of it?

As previously mentioned, greed and speculation are an intrinsic part of the dynamic here.

Any way of finding out whether anyone involved in the production of GOTG hoarded TTA # 13?

If not, they must be kicking themselves.

 

The inclusion of Groot into the Guardians of the Galaxy movie made Groot popular driving up demand for #13.  Once that happens buyers and sellers start trading money for copies and the market adjusts.  Certainly speculators jump in and try to make a buck but that's always gonna happen.  Sometimes speculators jump in and the movie bombs or the supply increases and prices drop and the speculators lose their shirts.

[lostboys]

Its not simply supply and demand.

 

New Mutants 87 & 98 are far from scarce but they are not cheap.

 

Same goes for ASM keys...194, 238, 252, 300, 316, 361

 

These books are everywhere but still, they are not cheap.

 

Ive even heard boardies refer to ASM129 and IH181 in the same way.

 

They are everywhere.

 

[shadroch]

They may be everywhere, but demand is, too.  In this current hobby, I'd be more concerned about which books are hot, as opposed to which are keys.

[DougC]

On 2/12/2024 at 6:57 AM, lostboys said:

Its not simply supply and demand.

 

New Mutants 87 & 98 are far from scarce but they are not cheap.

 

Same goes for ASM keys...194, 238, 252, 300, 316, 361

 

These books are everywhere but still, they are not cheap.

 

Ive even heard boardies refer to ASM129 and IH181 in the same way.

 

They are everywhere.

 

Of the entire print run for Hulk 181 there are currently 14k blue labels, 1200 green, 1500 SS, and 1k restored. Lets assume all labels are correct and round up to an even 18k. That is the current graded supply, do you believe that there are only 18k people who collect comics and want this book? I do not believe you actually understand supply & demand as even in your reply you are trying to conflate it with scarcity which even if you tried that angle you would still be brought back to the low supply, as there are only 157 total 9.8 books. You do not start getting into an actual "supply" until the 7.0-8.5 range which still only have 1400-1500 represented copies in each grade.

The "first" appearance of Wolverine makes this book collectible; it would have had to have a print run of X-Men(1991) proportions to drown demand level to a rock bottom price. Even then; it might not matter given the GPA of what Spawn #1 is selling for now and it's print run.

[lostboys]

 

Oh Im sure there are hundreds of thousands of collectors who want IH181 that will never be able to afford them.

 

 

 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/12/2024 at 6:57 AM, lostboys said:

Its not simply supply and demand.

Yes, it simply is. Supply AND demand.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/11/2024 at 6:41 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

At the time TTA # 13 was published, Groot was a character of no significance.

The same as TTA # 27.

What if the first Ant Man appearance had featured a different scientist, not Henry Pym, but with roughly the same powers?

Then TTA # 27 would be worth the same today as # 26 and # 28.

The subject under discussion here has more to do with human psychology than the comic book industry.

Why pay many times more for issue A of a title than issue B, when both are circulating in equal quantities?

FOMO has not yet been mentioned, but it is surely a driver. 

 

FOMO explains brief spikes and individual outlier sales. FOMO absolutely does not explain demand for everything.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:31 PM, newshane said:

I gave my definition for keys. 

What is yours? 

You don't have a definition for 'key' and neither do I. We're not so special and powerful that we get to redefine the English language.

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/467134-spider-man-100-200-keys/?do=findComment&comment=11158205

 

Edited February 12 by Lazyboy

[lostboys]

On 2/12/2024 at 2:53 PM, Lazyboy said:

Yes, it simply is. Supply AND demand.

No, its not.

Not everyone who wants a key can afford a key.

 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/12/2024 at 2:19 PM, lostboys said:

Not everyone who wants a key can afford a key.

Who said they could? What does that have to do with anything?

[newshane]

On 2/12/2024 at 2:09 PM, Lazyboy said:

You don't have a definition for 'key' and neither do I. We're not so special and powerful that we get to redefine the English language.

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/467134-spider-man-100-200-keys/?do=findComment&comment=11158205

 

I suppose we speak different languages, then. 

Or perhaps you're being unnecessarily stubborn? 

You provided me with a dictionary definition: essential; central; important:

I gave you several scenarios in which a comic would meet that definition. 

You also posted an image that more or less outlined the same scenarios. 

I consider our current discourse quite bewildering. At this point, you can count me out. I believe I've made my point clear. As for you? Not so much. 

[thehumantorch]

On 2/12/2024 at 5:57 AM, lostboys said:

Its not simply supply and demand.

 

New Mutants 87 & 98 are far from scarce but they are not cheap.

 

Same goes for ASM keys...194, 238, 252, 300, 316, 361

 

These books are everywhere but still, they are not cheap.

 

Ive even heard boardies refer to ASM129 and IH181 in the same way.

 

They are everywhere.

 

It's always supply and demand.  New Mutants is very common, even in high grade, but demand is also high.  If demand is high prices are higher.

Hell, SA Fantastic Four and Spider-man aren't rare.  Huge print runs and likely 100,000 or more surviving copies of most of those books.  Even AF15 isn't rare.  Demand is strong enough to absorb the large supply and keep prices elevated.  And speculators see a potential windfall and jump onto hot or popular issues and increase demand.

[thehumantorch]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:19 PM, lostboys said:

No, its not.

Not everyone who wants a key can afford a key.

 

As the price goes up the demand decreases.  As the price goes down demand increases.  It's all about supply and demand and one of the factors that affects demand is price.

[Lazyboy]

On 2/12/2024 at 2:59 PM, newshane said:

I suppose we speak different languages, then. 

Or perhaps you're being unnecessarily stubborn? 

You provided me with a dictionary definition: essential; central; important:

I gave you several scenarios in which a comic would meet that definition. 

You also posted an image that more or less outlined the same scenarios. 

I consider our current discourse quite bewildering. At this point, you can count me out. I believe I've made my point clear. As for you? Not so much. 

In what world are 'popular' and 'important' synonyms?

The only thing you've made clear is that you really don't understand.

[newshane]

On 2/12/2024 at 3:31 PM, Lazyboy said:

In what world are 'popular' and 'important' synonyms?

The only thing you've made clear is that you really don't understand.

I used the word "popular" only once in my original post, to describe the Walking Dead and why many consider it a key. 

Would you disagree if I revised the statement to "important" and if so, on what grounds? 

The book is a key on multiple levels. Do you disagree? 

Edited February 13 by newshane

[Zonker]

Rewind back to the beginning of the hobby:  First and foremost, the reason back issues of comic books originally had any value was that readers of the current issues wanted to see what happened in the stories they missed, either because those issues came out before the readers' time, or because of inconsistent comic book distribution, a factor that existed for most of the first 50 years of what we think of as the modern comic book industry.  So you had people willing to pay more for an older issue, and the more perceived importance of that older issue, the more one was willing to pay.  When I first started collecting, origin issues were a much bigger deal than they are now.  Because an origin can always be updated, changed, or ret-conned.  But a first published appearance is always that first appearance (at least until we start to change our minds about "cameos," previews or ad appearances).  Likewise, the advent of slabbing has increased the demand for the cool cover image, as opposed to the short story drawn by a legendary artist like Frank Frazetta, but buried as a back-up feature in the book.  

[William-James88]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:24 PM, Mokiguy said:

their demand established by pure speculation among collectors because a certain character showed up and has little to do with the amount of any particular issue produced. And that to me seems odd ....... sort of backward and ripe for a collapse some day like Tulips in Holland in the 1600 hundreds or more recently the dot.com bubble of the late 90's where people were throwing money at and buying any stock that was tech or had dot.com in it's name. I don't know much about sports trading cards, but didn't they also have a similar bubble and collapse and now only certain prized cards have any value?

Personally I think a true scarcity is what should drive demand and not greed and speculation. But that's just my humble opinion.

You are understanding the situation perfectly. With supply being the same, the key issues are elevated in price due to higher demand. But the speculation is founded on past history of those key comics doing better than others.

And here's an easy one: the fantastic four. Not every collector wants to own an entire run. Many just want the issues Galactus and Silver Sufer first appear in and not the 5-10 issues before or after their appearance. Either due to space, or speculation, or simply not wanting to spend a dime on anything they don't care as much about. 

And that added supply, with maintained demand, will drive the price up. And you can apply that to a run of spider-man, or hulk. How many fans really want to own every single hulk comics ever produced compared to how many just want that one issue where Wolverine first appears in? Unlike coins, comics take up a ton of space (especially in slabs). I have no space for a whole run of Ninja Turtles, but I own the first issue. 

And true scarcity is no good in comics, it ends up being a factor that hinders the price. A comic that is simply rare and not a key will be on the market so rarely that you can't establish a trend or a book being hot. So the price won't go up. As opposed to a key like Spider-man 300 selling a bunch of copies and showing a trend of the book picking heat, meaning that more people purchase it because it's picking up value, like a stock.

And yes, in turn that can lead to a crash of some key books. We saw that with the first punisher which decreased almost by 50% from some all time highs for particular grades, and the first Carnage appearance which also went crazy down as soon as some demand decreased.

[William-James88]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:57 AM, lostboys said:

Its not simply supply and demand.

 

New Mutants 87 & 98 are far from scarce but they are not cheap.

 

Same goes for ASM keys...194, 238, 252, 300, 316, 361

 

These books are everywhere but still, they are not cheap.

 

Ive even heard boardies refer to ASM129 and IH181 in the same way.

 

They are everywhere.

 

I do not understand this post. Those comics are not scarce, but their demand is higher than other comics. Their demand is so high that it counters their current lack of scarcity. How is that not simply supply and demand? Your post proves that it is.