Why should a key issue be worth so much more than a non key issue? 1 1

[Mokiguy]

Now before you answer, read my explanation.

I also collect Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars. And certain coins are more in demand and bring higher prices than others. Every coin is worth more if it is in better condition, but assuming condition is equal, the reason some Morgan or Peace dollars are worth more than others is rarity. For instance I'll just use a random year say 1881. There were 4 US mints that made Morgan silver dollars that year. The San Francisco mint made 12,760,000 Morgan dollars that year, and the 1881 P (Philadelphia mint) made 9.163,000, both are considered to be common year and mint Morgan dollars and are worth the least. The New Orleans mint made 5,708,000 Morgan dollars that year and they are worth more than the P and S mint mark Morgans because fewer were made. The last mint was Carson City Nevada, and they only made 296,000 Morgans that year and they are worth the most of all. If it were graded like a comic, an 8.5 Carson City would be worth about 5 times as much as a New Orleans Morgan and about 10 times what a San Francisco or Philadelphia 1881 Morgan is worth. Again, assuming condition is equal, value is all about scarcity.

So all that above brings me to this. I've looked at comic runs and though they have fluctuated over time depending on the popularity of the comic, the runs stayed pretty much the same month to month as long as a particular comic was still popular. If an issue printed 600,000 copies in September, then give or take a few issues, the October and November issues were also printed at the same rate, about 600,000 comics. And that's the rub ........ let's say that a new character was introduced in the October issue. Now that issue may be considered a Key issue and command not just 10 but perhaps 100 times the value of the September issue or the November issue even though each month 600,000 copies were printed. And that's what I don't get. Not only coins but many other collectables command higher values based upon scarcity, how many whatever were originally produced ........ not so comics. 

So if any of you want to comment, please do because I really don't get it.

[SOTIcollector]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:14 AM, Mokiguy said:

Now before you answer, read my explanation.

I also collect Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars. And certain coins are more in demand and bring higher prices than others. Every coin is worth more if it is in better condition, but assuming condition is equal, the reason some Morgan or Peace dollars are worth more than others is rarity. For instance I'll just use a random year say 1881. There were 4 US mints that made Morgan silver dollars that year. The San Francisco mint made 12,760,000 Morgan dollars that year, and the 1881 P (Philadelphia mint) made 9.163,000, both are considered to be common year and mint Morgan dollars and are worth the least. The New Orleans mint made 5,708,000 Morgan dollars that year and they are worth more than the P and S mint mark Morgans because fewer were made. The last mint was Carson City Nevada, and they only made 296,000 Morgans that year and they are worth the most of all. If it were graded like a comic, an 8.5 Carson City would be worth about 5 times as much as a New Orleans Morgan and about 10 times what a San Francisco or Philadelphia 1881 Morgan is worth. Again, assuming condition is equal, value is all about scarcity.

So all that above brings me to this. I've looked at comic runs and though they have fluctuated over time depending on the popularity of the comic, the runs stayed pretty much the same month to month as long as a particular comic was still popular. If an issue printed 600,000 copies in September, then give or take a few issues, the October and November issues were also printed at the same rate, about 600,000 comics. And that's the rub ........ let's say that a new character was introduced in the October issue. Now that issue may be considered a Key issue and command not just 10 but perhaps 100 times the value of the September issue or the November issue even though each month 600,000 copies were printed. And that's what I don't get. Not only coins but many other collectables command higher values based upon scarcity, how many whatever were originally produced ........ not so comics. 

So if any of you want to comment, please do because I really don't get it.

The key is that the contents of each comic change, but the print runs among similar-aged issues don't usually vary much.  

The value of any collectible is determined by supply and demand. 

Demand among a small range of, say, Morgan dollars, is constant.  There aren't really significantly more people who want San Francisco-minted dollars versus Philly, or 1881 versus 1882.  So supply there is the only driver of price differences among similar coins.

With comics, demand does change significantly between issues.  The supply of Amazing Spider-man #128 is virtually the same as the supply of Amazing Spider-man #129.  However, the demand is based on the contents of the issue.  Far more people want the first appearance of the Punisher than the number of people who want a non-key issue.  

The dynamics of comic pricing are more similar to sports cards than coins.  Why does a 1952 Mantle rookie sell for so much more than a 1953 Mantle, or another 1952 card from an average player on the same team?

Does that help?

 

Edited February 3 by SOTIcollector

[Mokiguy]

On 2/3/2024 at 9:00 AM, SOTIcollector said:

The key is that the contents of each comic change, but the print runs among similar-aged issues don't usually vary much.  

The value of any collectible is determined by supply and demand. 

Demand among a small range of, say, Morgan dollars, is constant.  There aren't really significantly more people who want San Francisco-minted dollars versus Philly, or 1881 versus 1882.  So supply there is the only driver of price differences among similar coins.

With comics, demand does change significantly between issues.  The supply of Amazing Spider-man #128 is virtually the same as the supply of Amazing Spider-man #129.  However, the demand is based on the contents of the issue.  Far more people want the first appearance of the Punisher than the number of people who want a non-key issue.  

The dynamics of comic pricing are more similar to sports cards than coins.  Why does a 1952 Mantle rookie sell for so much more than a 1955 Mantle, or another 1954 card from an average player on the same team?

Does that help?

 

I understand supply and demand, but the point I was trying to establish is that the supply about the coins I mentioned was created at the time of minting. and the demand is higher among scarcer coins, but the scarcity is and always has been real from the day they were minted. Comics on the other hand seem to have their demand established by pure speculation among collectors because a certain character showed up and has little to do with the amount of any particular issue produced. And that to me seems odd ....... sort of backward and ripe for a collapse some day like Tulips in Holland in the 1600 hundreds or more recently the dot.com bubble of the late 90's where people were throwing money at and buying any stock that was tech or had dot.com in it's name. I don't know much about sports trading cards, but didn't they also have a similar bubble and collapse and now only certain prized cards have any value?

Personally I think a true scarcity is what should drive demand and not greed and speculation. But that's just my humble opinion.

[KCOComics]

I admittedly don't know much about coins. 

I do agree with @SOTIcollector that it's really an issue of supply and demand.  There is greater demand for Hulk 181 than Hulk 179. People pay a premium for it.  

 

I guess the difference between coins and comics is the monthly releases? If you take Hulk 102 - 179 collectors under the age of 60 likely didn't read those stories. We have no connections to them outside of some cool covers (sorry Wendigo).  But many have a significant connection to Wolverine. For me,  it was the Xmen cartoons in the 90s and all the Xmen comics I would beg my mom to buy. Other's because of the movies.  Generations gave grown up loving Wolverine. So the demand is huge. There is a large supply,  but the demand out paces it. 

 

[SOTIcollector]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:24 PM, Mokiguy said:

I understand supply and demand, but the point I was trying to establish is that the supply about the coins I mentioned was created at the time of minting. and the demand is higher among scarcer coins, but the scarcity is and always has been real from the day they were minted. Comics on the other hand seem to have their demand established by pure speculation among collectors because a certain character showed up and has little to do with the amount of any particular issue produced. And that to me seems odd ....... sort of backward and ripe for a collapse some day like Tulips in Holland in the 1600 hundreds or more recently the dot.com bubble of the late 90's where people were throwing money at and buying any stock that was tech or had dot.com in it's name. I don't know much about sports trading cards, but didn't they also have a similar bubble and collapse and now only certain prized cards have any value?

Personally I think a true scarcity is what should drive demand and not greed and speculation. But that's just my humble opinion.

Although greed and speculation are significant factors in the market, there are also thousands of comic book collectors and sports card collectors who say that their collecting has nothing to do with greed or speculation.  There can be many reasons for collecting something, whether comics or cards or anything else, that have nothing whatsoever to do with perceived future market value.  With either comics or coins, a common motivation for collecting is the content of what makes up a particular item:  a popular sports figure, a popular character who is known worldwide, historical significance.  There are large numbers of people want the first Spider-man comic, or the first Superman, Venom, or whatever, because they have an affinity for the character, not because they think that buying one will make them money.  If you don't understand this, then you won't understand the comics market or card market or most other collectible markets.

You have asserted that a collectible's value should be determined solely by scarcity and not by something about that collectible that differentiates it form others in the same category.  That's an interesting perspective, and I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you.

Edited February 3 by SOTIcollector

[Mokiguy]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:49 AM, SOTIcollector said:

Although greed and speculation are significant factors in the market, there are also thousands of comic book collectors and sports card collectors who say that their collecting has nothing to do with greed or speculation.  There can be many reasons for collecting something, whether comics or cards or anything else, that have nothing whatsoever to do with perceived future market value.  With either comics or coins, a common motivation for collecting is the content of what makes up a particular item:  a popular sports figure, a popular character who is known worldwide, historical significance.  There are large numbers of people want the first Spider-man comic, or the first Superman, Venom, or whatever, because they have an affinity for the character, not because they think that buying one will make them money.  If you don't understand this, then you won't understand the comics market or card market or most other collectible markets.

You have asserted that a collectible's value should be determined solely by scarcity and not by something about that collectible that differentiates it form others in the same category.  That's an interesting perspective, and I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you.

Did you ever see the movie Cool hand Luke? The prison boss says to Luke ....... "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach".

Well what we've got here is a failure to communicate. And maybe you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, or maybe you did when you wrote, (I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you). Can we stick to the point of the post rather than trying to psychoanalyze the poster?

But I forgive you for that slight miscalculation.

I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, but rather $3,000 spent because they have an affinity for the character. You can have the same affinity for the character on a common $5 Spider-man Comic vs Amazing Fantasy #15. If you are willing to spend thousands on a book like that, it's not because you like Spidey and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and reminds you of your youth. I collect DC and in particular the silver and early bronze age superhero DC jenres. I have over 500 and I'm still collecting (sorry SOTIcollector, but it's a good fit for me). But nearly all have been had for a few bucks to maybe $10 to $20 for a few select issues. They are mostly average 4.5 to 7.0 condition with some I believe would grade in the 8's to low 9's if I would ever want to get them graded (I never will), and a few down around 2.0. I'm retired and have a certain affinity for Superman and Superboy, and Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, Wonder Woman and Batman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and others because I grew up reading them and collecting them reminds me of my youth. But it reminds me of my youth on $2 to $10 comics. Unless a person is wealthy, spending hundreds and thousands on a comic is either hope greed or speculation and not just affinity with a character.

[KCOComics]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

Did you ever see the movie Cool hand Luke? The prison boss says to Luke ....... "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach".

Well what we've got here is a failure to communicate. And maybe you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, or maybe you did when you wrote, (I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you). Can we stick to the point of the post rather than trying to psychoanalyze the poster?

But I forgive you for that slight miscalculation.

I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, but rather $3,000 spent because they have an affinity for the character. You can have the same affinity for the character on a common $5 Spider-man Comic vs Amazing Fantasy #15. If you are willing to spend thousands on a book like that, it's not because you like Spidey and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and reminds you of your youth. I collect DC and in particular the silver and early bronze age superhero DC jenres. I have over 500 and I'm still collecting (sorry SOTIcollector, but it's a good fit for me). But nearly all have been had for a few bucks to maybe $10 to $20 for a few select issues. They are mostly average 4.5 to 7.0 condition with some I believe would grade in the 8's to low 9's if I would ever want to get them graded (I never will), and a few down around 2.0. I'm retired and have a certain affinity for Superman and Superboy, and Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, Wonder Woman and Batman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and others because I grew up reading them and collecting them reminds me of my youth. But it reminds me of my youth on $2 to $10 comics. Unless a person is wealthy, spending hundreds and thousands on a comic is either hope greed or speculation and not just affinity with a character.

I disagree. 

I've spent alot of money on some of those keys. Likely far to much. 

But I always ask would I be happy to have this if prices collapsed tomorrow?  The answer is generally yes. I don't speculate. I don't chase 9.8s. Most of what I buy is atomic age books that are less than $50. 

But I've also sprung for SA keys and bigger GA books.  I don't feel like it's out of greed. The money would be better off invested in stocks.

I really enjoy the hobby. I have an appreciation for creators and history.  I love flipping through boxes of old books. 

I think everyone collects their own way for their own reasons. I love the way you collect. You buy comics, read and enjoy them.  I try to do the same with 50s horror and Sci-Fi.  I also like to own SA keys and some high grade Slabbed BA horror that I'll never read. 

[comicginger1789]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:24 PM, Mokiguy said:

I understand supply and demand, but the point I was trying to establish is that the supply about the coins I mentioned was created at the time of minting. and the demand is higher among scarcer coins, but the scarcity is and always has been real from the day they were minted. Comics on the other hand seem to have their demand established by pure speculation among collectors because a certain character showed up and has little to do with the amount of any particular issue produced. And that to me seems odd ....... sort of backward and ripe for a collapse some day like Tulips in Holland in the 1600 hundreds or more recently the dot.com bubble of the late 90's where people were throwing money at and buying any stock that was tech or had dot.com in it's name. I don't know much about sports trading cards, but didn't they also have a similar bubble and collapse and now only certain prized cards have any value?

Personally I think a true scarcity is what should drive demand and not greed and speculation. But that's just my humble opinion.

The part I bolded above in your statement is where you are wrong. Have films had effects on comics values? Sure. Have they turned books that were previously valued little to have a higher value. Yes.

But where you are wrong is the fact that true key comics have always been desired...before the films and shows. For example, Hulk 181 the first appearance of Wolverine. A very plentiful book that contains a character people have loved since its inception. It does not matter that is has the same print run as issue 177 (which has little value in comparison), it matters the contents. It has always mattered in the case of comics. Scarcity makes sense for coins, especially when you consider that the coin itself changes little....but the ability to find it does. This aspect does affect comics values but not to the same degree and rightfully so. For example, any pre 1940's books are scarce and even scarcer would be Canadian printed comics. However, because the desire to own these does not exist on a mass scale (many of these characters are not mainstream), the scarcity aspect has a peak to where it could be the only copy in the world and yet it could not possibly touch a book like Action Comics 1 because of what that comic contains and means to the history of the entire hobby.

[comicginger1789]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

Unless a person is wealthy, spending hundreds and thousands on a comic is either hope greed or speculation and not just affinity with a character.

I disagree with this even more

In my lifetime, I estimate I have spent between 25-35k on comics that I currently own. Because I love what they are. I don't think greed has anything to do with it, nor do I speculation. If we had tragic loss tomorrow, and needed money to help our family, those books would be gone. 

In another scenario, if the comic market were to crash and my books were worthless, I would not care. I don't view them as an investment and never have. As I have gotten older and had kids, sure now I recognize that fact about what I have but it is not why I continue to collect. I view it as a hobby that brings me joy. Like someone who spends lots of money on equipment to play a sport...or drive fast cars...or heck indulge in expensive foods and drinks. At the end of the day, the comics have provided me with a lot of joy. It is a pure bonus that, whenever my time doing so comes to an end, that it could be turned into some sort of monetary return.

And that is not to say that speculator or investment collectors don't exist. They 100% do. And maybe those guys are the only ones who exist buying the 100k ad up books of today. But that in itself is a small fraction of the hobby...most guys are happily collecting what they love for that reason alone.

Edited February 4 by comicginger1789

[comicginger1789]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, 

I have long told my wife that if we ever won 1 million dollars, we would each get a self purchase and for me it would be a AF#15. Maybe not the world's best copy but perhaps something in the 75k-100k range. And it would be because I want to have that piece of comic history. Now, I am aware I could probably sell one day and get my money back (or more) but that would not be the purpose of the purchase initially. I think you are incorrectly judging comic collectors and their motives. Some definitely behave the way you describe but most do not at all.

But I can say as someone who regularly spends thousands a year on comics, I don't have a care about how that ends up. I am aware of it and intrigued by that aspect of the hobby but because the hobby did not start out that way for me (with me worrying about that or thinking about it) it is not the focus of why I collect today.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/3/2024 at 12:00 PM, SOTIcollector said:

The key is that the contents of each comic change, but the print runs among similar-aged issues don't usually vary much.  

Even when they do, the scarcer issues are not necessarily more valuable. Comic collectors only care about scarcity to a point. Most collectors will buy an extremely common issue if it has the first appearance of an important character or good cover art but will pass over a rare but unimportant issue. Some extremely scarce comics are worth next to nothing.

[Readcomix]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

Did you ever see the movie Cool hand Luke? The prison boss says to Luke ....... "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach".

Well what we've got here is a failure to communicate. And maybe you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, or maybe you did when you wrote, (I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you). Can we stick to the point of the post rather than trying to psychoanalyze the poster?

But I forgive you for that slight miscalculation.

I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, but rather $3,000 spent because they have an affinity for the character. You can have the same affinity for the character on a common $5 Spider-man Comic vs Amazing Fantasy #15. If you are willing to spend thousands on a book like that, it's not because you like Spidey and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and reminds you of your youth. I collect DC and in particular the silver and early bronze age superhero DC jenres. I have over 500 and I'm still collecting (sorry SOTIcollector, but it's a good fit for me). But nearly all have been had for a few bucks to maybe $10 to $20 for a few select issues. They are mostly average 4.5 to 7.0 condition with some I believe would grade in the 8's to low 9's if I would ever want to get them graded (I never will), and a few down around 2.0. I'm retired and have a certain affinity for Superman and Superboy, and Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, Wonder Woman and Batman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and others because I grew up reading them and collecting them reminds me of my youth. But it reminds me of my youth on $2 to $10 comics. Unless a person is wealthy, spending hundreds and thousands on a comic is either hope greed or speculation and not just affinity with a character.

I didn’t read him as being derogatory. I think he was being literal. Comics are not primarily scarcity-driven, though it can be a secondary factor. I have very scarce comics that are nowhere near as valuable as many far more common comics. 
As you said, in coins, scarcity is the separating factor. There is no content to read. I don’t see scarcity alone as a protection against hobby collapse. (Gold and silver coins of course will always have some value based on the metals)

Sustained interest is the key to any collectibles hobby continuing to thrive, whether it’s comics, coins, big little books, muscle cars, guitars, watches, firearms, whatever. Collectors in these various hobbies stack the variables of condition, scarcity, beauty, functionality etc differently but all that is within the greater body of how many people are interested at all.

I do see that comics’ definition of “keys” has narrowed greatly to increase the outsize importance of first appearances. But that may be a factor of readily available reprints of sought-after stories. (Eg — the Avengers kree-skrull war were keys based on content, the storyline. People on here can easily think of their own examples across eras — monster society of evil in Capt Marvel Adventures, ASM 31-33, Kraven’s Last Hunt, Great Darkness Saga in LSH, etc).

All hobbies need their participants to be historians and pass along why a particular item is cool/interesting/desirable. Cynically, it’s easy to see this as salesmanship/shilling but there’s a difference. If knowledge isn’t passed along, new interest doesn’t take root.

[Panda2]

I totally hear and live these points of view.  I just turned 50 and for me it is about having a piece of history. If the bottom fell out of the market I would also be fine.  But do I hope they might appreciate over time? Sure better believe it but that’s not why i am buying. I now have the means to have things I would never have thought I would have and things I held on a pedestal.  So I buy and I enjoy seeing them and come what may. it is certainly not a retirement plan, but it brings me joy every day

[Qalyar]

Setting (mostly) aside the speculation issues, I feel the original question here was "how did comic collecting get to be the way it is?" It's obvious that it didn't have to be this way; both coin and stamp collecting have been historically driven mostly by rarity rather than any alternative aspects (although there are exceptions in both hobbies).

Honestly, there are a number of factors, but first and foremost is that "run collecting" has always been a minority approach to the comics hobby (and to sports cards, for fundamentally the same reasons). Why is that?

First, complete runs of the top-line titles are enormous. One of the largest US coin sets that is commonly collected is the mid-tier-value Standing Liberty Quarters. There are around 120 coins in a full set of SLQs, including the varying mintmarks and other major varieties. In contrast, the first series of Detective Comics is 881 books not counting any sort of variant covers, direct market/newsstand printings, or other shenanigans. Action Comics first series? 904 books, again not counting variants or other distinguishable printings. Even The Incredible Hulk goes to 474 just on the base issue numbers. Before slabbing, a complete run of SLQs will fit in a book-sized binder. A complete run of Detective Comics or Action Comics (again, not including any variants -- just one book per issue number) would fit in ... four long boxes. After slabbing? The SLQs will take up a good sized cabinet drawer, perhaps. Nearly 1000 slabbed comics? Just on space alone (ignoring the value of some of those books), you probably need to consider a custom storage solution. And that's one title. I conservatively estimate that a full collection of "Batman books" would be north of 3000 books before accounting for variants in any form.

But beyond that, a lot of people are interested in comics because of specific characters, and those characters don't always have parity with titles. The Increbile Hulk 181 is pretty much the archetypal example of that. Let's say you love Wolverine but don't find Hulk incredibly (see what I did there?) compelling? You'll absolutely want IH181 (and maybe IH180), but there's no way you're going to shell out for the rest of the series. Of course, if you're just a huge (heh...) fan of the Green Guy, you'll probably want that book, too. In principle, at least, key issues have broader or more lasting appeal. Now, obviously, that's more true for long-established keys than for whatever book has a tenuous connection to the next film release or that introduces a new character without established staying power.

[thehumantorch]

On 2/3/2024 at 2:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, but rather $3,000 spent because they have an affinity for the character. You can have the same affinity for the character on a common $5 Spider-man Comic vs Amazing Fantasy #15. If you are willing to spend thousands on a book like that, it's not because you like Spidey and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and reminds you of your youth. I collect DC and in particular the silver and early bronze age superhero DC jenres. I have over 500 and I'm still collecting (sorry SOTIcollector, but it's a good fit for me). But nearly all have been had for a few bucks to maybe $10 to $20 for a few select issues. They are mostly average 4.5 to 7.0 condition with some I believe would grade in the 8's to low 9's if I would ever want to get them graded (I never will), and a few down around 2.0. I'm retired and have a certain affinity for Superman and Superboy, and Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, Wonder Woman and Batman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and others because I grew up reading them and collecting them reminds me of my youth. But it reminds me of my youth on $2 to $10 comics. Unless a person is wealthy, spending hundreds and thousands on a comic is either hope greed or speculation and not just affinity with a character.

Sorry, will have to disagree.  The way you collect isn't the way I collect or other people collect.

Early Fantastic Four and similar 60s Marvels are what I read as a kid and that's what I'm drawn to.  I have an emotional attachment to that era and I'm willing to pay for those books.  I'm not rich but I can pick up a few nice books a year and I'd prefer that over buying piles of newer books.  Sure I know what these books are worth and yes, someday I'll have to sell them, but in reality I just like old comics.  And I'm thrilled that prices have recently dropped on most SA books, time to buy.

[PovertyRow]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:06 PM, Mokiguy said:

Did you ever see the movie Cool hand Luke? The prison boss says to Luke ....... "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach".

Communication is a two way street but you seem to be stuck on Supply Lane. In comics, the key to Supply and Demand is Demand. Demand is the most important factor, where you keep stressing supply. Where supply CAN come in is when we consider grades.

Coins are far more durable than comic books. Finding a 1930s coin in any MS+ grades, for example, is a hell of a lot more frequent than finding a 1930s comic book in 9+ grades. Further on the supply side people tend/tended not to throw out coins. "Hey, I found this bag of old coins in the attic. Should we keep them?" "Nah, just toss 'em". That scenario happened a lot with comic books. Also comics often just got read to death, folded up and stuffed in a back pocket while riding a bicycle (hard to fold a coin), etc. So these are a few differences between the two.For the record I also collect coins and enjoy the obsolete coins such as two cent pieces, three cent pieces, half dimes, 20 cent pieces etc etc,

Bottom line in the comic book world is that demand is always going to create a higher price than scarcity, until grades are taken into consideration. Then high grades, which are generally scarcer and does impact the supply side, will drive the prices even higher in the higher demand books. 

Of course there is speculation in the comic book world. But there is also in the coin world. Check out Mike Mezack, the Don West (RIP) of the coin world, on HSN pushing the speculation and greed to the limit. If that wasn't working they would have pulled his show a long time ago.

For a collector like me I go for nostalgia and a love of the culture. As a child in the 1950s I grew up on the TV reruns of the old Universal Monster movies like Dracula, Frankenstein, the Wolf Man etc. as well as shows like Creature Features and Creature Double Features. My favorite book back then as a pre-teen was Great Tales of Terror and the Supernatural, an amazing 1080 page tome collecting great 19th and early 20th century tales. This all gave me a love of horror, sci-fi and the supernatural that informs my collecting to this day. It also led me to genres like pre-code crime and romance, as well as more supernatural/sci-fi/horror silver/bronze books (including super-hero books with similar content). The prospect of making bucks is far from what informs my collecting, even though I do shake my head at my selling my PCH collection (about three long boxes of unique titles) back in 2006. I know a lot of collectors and we generally share a similar mind set. 

Edited February 4 by PovertyRow

[Mokiguy]

On 2/4/2024 at 12:25 PM, PovertyRow said:

Communication is a two way street but you seem to be stuck on Supply Lane. In comics, the key to Supply and Demand is Demand. Demand is the most important factor, where you keep stressing supply. Where supply CAN come in is when we consider grades.Coins are far more durable than comic books. Finding a 1930s coin in any MS+ grades, for example, is a hell of a lot more frequent than finding a 1930s comic book in 9+ grades. Further on the supply side people tend/tended not to throw out coins. "Hey, I found this bag of old coins in the attic. Should we keep them?" "Nah, just toss 'em". That scenario happened a lot with comic books. Also comics often just got read to death, folded up and stuffed in a back pocket while riding a bicycle (hard to fold a coin), etc.

Your explanation about what happened to many old comics is a good one, and something I didn't consider when comparing coins to comics. But that still does not explain why one issue commands such a higher price than another. And that really was my question, wasn't it? I'm sure that a key issue was stuffed into that back pocket on the bicycle ride and read to death just like every other non key issue since nobody new a key issue from a hole in the ground back when they were printed 50 or more years ago.

I think why this thread got off track was because I used the word "greed", and nobody wants to think of themselves as greedy, and so most of the comments tried to explain away that word when it came to them. In hindsight, that was not the best choice of a word for my question. But the other word I used, speculation was. Whether my simplistic assumption of print runs staying pretty much the same through out a year, or comics being worn out and thrown away at pretty much the same rate, key issue or not since no one new an issue would be a key issue at the time of printing. Not affinity for a character, not nostalgia, nothing explains the price disparity then other than speculation. And that's OK. My question was trying to understand why. It's still bloody nuts if you really think about it. Paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a comic book.

So thanks for all the comments, and my apologies for the word greed ............. bad choice of a word on my part.

[MAR1979]

Answer = Supply & Demand - The very Pillar of Economics!





https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/law-of-supply-demand.asp

Edited February 5 by MAR1979

[DougC]

Given your combative responses and absolute refusal to admit you actually do understand the basic reasons why a "key" comic would be seen as more valuable. I will play along and we can pretend:

On 2/5/2024 at 9:24 AM, Mokiguy said:

...that still does not explain why one issue commands such a higher price than another.

Not affinity for a character, not nostalgia, nothing explains the price disparity then other than speculation.

It has already been explained very well with the comparison to baseball cards and why someone would want a rookie card instead of a 3rd or 4th year card. So lets just do a one-to-one coin comparison. While considered new; coins have both a "first strike" and "first day of issue" notation that carry a premium when collected. These coins are not any different than a coin minted on day 31 so why would a coin collector pay more? The majority of these coins do not increase much over the base purchase price established in the original offering in the after market. Though by your previous responses it has to be speculation only, if someone is purchasing these for their collection as they want "the first" then they are lying cause paraphrasing your own words: "who would pay hundreds more for the same coin, it would be bloody nuts".

The first of something is always more valuable simply because it is the first and collectors will focus on that aspect.

For reference I do not want to pay the amount the market wants for an All Select #11; So I pivoted to one of my favorite characters Millie the Model. In issue #2 she dresses as the Blonde Phantom, this predates AS #11 and is something of a tryout issue for the character. While not the true first appearance it is a first and because I enjoy and collect the comic I also had the issue signed by Ken Bald. This is lightly considered poor form as I defaced the comic and would actually hurt the value in a lot of peoples eyes. I did not "speculate' by purchasing this book, I bought it to add to my collection as a fan.

Collecting for enjoyment that doesn't result in financial benefit is something you don't seem to purposefully want to understand or believe in.

 

[LowGradeBronze]

Not sure if it's been mentioned (apologies if it has) but the difference between coins and comics (with regard to the original question) could be the collectors themselves. Coin collectors might be fairly staid and rational humans whereas comic collectors can be, well, a bit bonkers! The passions that make someone pay $$$ / £££ for the pleasure of owning particular comics may not run quite as high, or be quite as impulsive, among coin collectors. Maybe?