1970 Top Sales Comics from Statement of Publication - Total Paid Circulation 1970 1 1

[Book Guy]

There is a Book on her that reprints all the TROTS strips.

There was a lot of good Comic/Strip stuff published in the Nat Lamp!

[Hepcat]

On 5/13/2024 at 11:14 AM, shadroch said:

These numbers tell me that there was a huge non-superhero market for newsstand comics that was lost when the hobby switched to the direct market. 

That is correct. Superhero comics didn't dominate newsstands back in the day.

On 5/13/2024 at 11:04 AM, shadroch said:

Richard Giordano is on record as saying he made up the Charlton numbers out of thin air when he was in charge.  Who is to say what he did when he took over at DC.

These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, especially the ones before 1975.

Those sales numbers are essentially accurate. There's no reason to expect them to reflect the titles that are most highly prized by collectors today. Quite simply today's collector market largely grew out of the niche of MMMS members Stan Lee generated. Sure comic collectors existed before then, but the Marvel Universe that Stan Lee created resulted in a quantum leap in the number of collectors. Julius Schwartz and Mort Weisinger also had a hand in fostering this quantum leap but Stan was nonetheless the Man when it came to encouraging comic buyers to hoard comics.

Today's comic collecting community can trace its origins to the Real Frantic Ones who bought Marvel comics from the Silver Age to the early Bronze Age. The few collectors who were drawn into comic fandom by "Duck" and other Dell comics in the 1950's are a small and ever decreasing niche. The genres from the 1940's and 1950's that have seen the most growth in demand in the last fifty years are precisely those titles that most appeal to today's rapidly aging Marvel Zombie contingent, e.g. crime and horror. Though I find this sad, it's undeniable.

Edited May 18 by Hepcat

[Hepcat]

On 5/12/2024 at 6:27 AM, Prince Namor said:

For those who DON'T believe there was affidavit fraud... Charlton's Cheyenne Kid outsold a Neal Adams Green Lantern...

Of course there was affidavit fraud. That's just human nature. Wherever there's an opportunity, there will be fraudsters.

But it's a huge logical leap to assume that certain titles were being hit by affidavit fraud much more than others. That's the part of your case that needs to be substantiated by very strong evidence.

[shadroch]

On 5/17/2024 at 1:44 PM, Hepcat said:

That is correct. Superhero comics didn't dominate the newsstands back in the day.

Those sales numbers are essentially accurate. There's no reason to expect them to reflect the titles that are most highly prized by collectors today. Quite simply today's collector market largely grew out of the niche of MMMS members Stan Lee generated. Sure comic collectors existed before then, but the Marvel Universe that Stan Lee created resulted in a quantum leap in the number of collectors. Julius Schwartz and Mort Weisinger also had a hand in fostering this quantum leap but Stan was nonetheless the Man when it came to encouraging comic buyers to hoard comics.

Yoday's comic market can trace its origins to the Real Frantic Ones who bought Marvel comics from the Silver Age to the early Bronze Age. The few collectors who were drawn into comic fandom by "Duck" and other Dell comics in the 1950's are a small and ever decreasing niche. The genres from the 1940's and 1950's that have seen the most growth in demand in the last fifty years are precisely those titles that most appeal to today's rapidly aging Marvel Zombie contingent, e.g. crime and horror. Though I find this sad, it's undeniable.

The Real Frantic Ones were the ones opening up shops in the 1970s/early 1980s. Most of us had little business experience, and it was a labor of love. When I opened my first store, I had to pre-pay my first month's books from my comic distributor and give my newsstand distributor a $500 deposit. My rent was $300, first and last month plus a deposit due when I got the keys. I opened on a shoestring budget and had to be selective about what I bought.   It's a story I've heard a hundred times.    I knew there was a back-issue market for superhero comics, so that's where I sunk my capital.  My customers seemed to want superheroes, so that's what I carried.

I

[Prince Namor]

On 5/18/2024 at 8:42 AM, Hepcat said:

Of course there was affidavit fraud. That's just human nature. Wherever there's an opportunity, there will be fraudsters.

But it's a huge logical leap to assume that certain titles were being hit by affidavit fraud much more than others. That's the part of your case that needs to be substantiated by very strong evidence.

Strong evidence? You said it yourself: 'Wherever there's an opportunity, there will be fraudsters.'

Even today, what do the fraudsters go after? The books most in demand. 

It's 'human nature'.

[Hepcat]

But where's the evidence that the Green Lantern-Green Arrow title was among the highest demand books at the time? Certainly not in the sales numbers you provided.

 

 

[shadroch]

On 5/18/2024 at 3:19 PM, Hepcat said:

But where's the evidence that the Green Lantern-Green Arrow title was among the highest demand books at the time? Certainly not in the sales numbers you provided.

 

 

It also assumes that all these dealers "knew" that this new direction would transform into an all-time classic.  Did DC print hundreds of thousands of extra copies in anticipation of this low-selling title becoming a yuge seller?  They seem to have overprinted the Kirby books and Shazam, anticipating better sales.  I've never read that DC thought they had a game-changing team taking over the book with GL 76.  It's not as if GL 76 came out and the internet went bonzo over it.  I was an occasional buyer and picked up an issue where Hal and Ollie were re-creating Travels with Charlie. It wasn't for me.

I don't think the numbers were accurate, across the board.   Notice how Archie has a run of slots, then Marvel has a slot.  I use them for general reference, but not as set in stone.

[Zonker]

On 5/18/2024 at 6:19 PM, Hepcat said:

But where's the evidence that the Green Lantern-Green Arrow title was among the highest demand books at the time? Certainly not in the sales numbers you provided.

 

 

The theory is that speculators back in the day would target the "good artist" books that they believed had the greatest potential to flip for profit to comic fans / collectors, not to the general population that was making Archie & Superman the top sellers.  There does seem to be a trend that the collectible artist books got cancelled with great regularity in 1968-1972:  Neal Adams' X-Men, Deadman & GL/GA.  Kirby's DC stuff.  Barry Smith's Conan nearly missed cancellation (if Roy Thomas is to be believed, sales only really took off beginning with the Gil Kane fill-in issues). 

[Prince Namor]

On 5/18/2024 at 3:44 AM, Hepcat said:

That is correct. Superhero comics didn't dominate newsstands back in the day.

Those sales numbers are essentially accurate. There's no reason to expect them to reflect the titles that are most highly prized by collectors today. Quite simply today's collector market largely grew out of the niche of MMMS members Stan Lee generated. Sure comic collectors existed before then, but the Marvel Universe MYTH that Stan Lee created resulted in a quantum leap in the number of a rabid  group of hardcore collectors. Julius Schwartz and Mort Weisinger also had a hand in fostering this (hunh?) but Stan was nonetheless the Man when it came to encouraging comic buyers to hoard comics.

FTFY

After Marvel never led in sales throughout the entire decade of the 60's... including 1970 and 1971... it took the creation of the direct market, the glutting of reprints and the inability of comics to hold the newsstand interest vs the price, to even give Marvel a chance...and finally the complete collapse of any common sense by DC Comics in pricing themselves - once at 25 cents for a year vs Marvel's 20 cents but then a second time a year later with their 60 page Giants priced at 60 cents, before finally conceding to let them drop to 50 cents - before Marvel could finally say, "Hey look at us! We're number one!"

Hey, they had their rabid fan base to keep them going.

Still... at that point it was like saying, "Look at us! We're less inept than the rest of the industry!" 

They sure showed DC Comics!

Meanwhile... DC Comics had the Top Rated Batman TV Show from 1966-67 (and in syndication for years after) -  The Super Friends TV Cartoon in 1973, and then in some form from 1977 to 1985, The Box Office success of FOUR Superman movies from 1978 to 1987 - Batman TV Cartoons that ran from 1968 to 1977 - The Box Office success of FOUR Batman movies that ran from 1989 to 1997 - The AWARD WINNING Batman the Animated Series TV Cartoon that ran from 1992 to 1995... Heck, they were REBOOTING a second Batman series when Marvel got their movie situation finally going....

All while DC Comics rebuilt their comic company and produced most of the better comics of the mid/late 80's into the 90's... Dark Knight Returns, Batman Year One, Watchmen, Sandman, Preacher, Hellblazer, etc....

Whenever I hear people talk about Stan Lee 'saving comics' or 'making it all more popular', I just think... What??? Comics were ALREADY popular in the early 60's. Superhero Fanzines began BEFORE FF#1 came out. People were already writing to Julius Schwartz and Mort Weisinger before they ever knew Stan Lee existed. Superman averaged 823,829 comics sold per month in 1965 (the year BEFORE the Batman TV Show), which wasn't much different than the 810,000 comics sold per month that the book averaged in 1960. (The other 6 Superman Family titles averaged a combined 3 million in sales).

Their Top 8 titles per year, would continue to beat Marvel's Top 8 titles per year through 1973 (at that pint only by about 160,000 total copies...).

And not long after, both DC and Marvel were on the brink of going bankrupt in the late 70's, early 80's... Star Wars and the Direct Market saved Marvel, not Stan Lee. HE did what he did best - he sold STAN LEE as a brand to the fans, who kept on collecting on the SECONDARY market. But Marvel was able to regroup and slowly win back some of them... New fans came on board because of the creative talent - Miller, Byrne, Simonson, etc. - while the diehards eagerly scooped up Secret Wars or whatever garbage Marvel threw at them with 'Stan Lee Presents' on it. Collectibility... NOT content, was Marvel's real goal. 

As far as comic books go... it hasn't aged well. 

On 5/18/2024 at 3:44 AM, Hepcat said:

Today's comic collecting community can trace its origins to the Real Frantic Ones who bought Marvel comics from the Silver Age to the early Bronze Age. The few collectors who were drawn into comic fandom by "Duck" and other Dell comics in the 1950's are a small and ever decreasing niche. The genres from the 1940's and 1950's that have seen the most growth in demand in the last fifty years are precisely those titles that most appeal to today's rapidly aging Marvel Zombie contingent, e.g. crime and horror. Though I find this sad, it's undeniable.

The portion of the collecting community that is about 'reading' is probably as small as it's ever been. 

[shadroch]

On 5/18/2024 at 4:15 PM, Zonker said:

The theory is that speculators back in the day would target the "good artist" books that they believed had the greatest potential to flip for profit to comic fans / collectors, not to the general population that was making Archie & Superman the top sellers.  There does seem to be a trend that the collectible artist books got cancelled with great regularity in 1968-1972:  Neal Adams' X-Men, Deadman & GL/GA.  Kirby's DC stuff.  Barry Smith's Conan nearly missed cancellation (if Roy Thomas is to be believed, sales only really took off beginning with the Gil Kane fill-in issues). 

People speculating on books is not affidavit fraud. You are confusing two different things. 

[Zonker]

On 5/18/2024 at 8:37 PM, shadroch said:

People speculating on books is not affidavit fraud. You are confusing two different things. 

No, I don't think so.  Speculators who outright bought comics in bulk would presumably have had those recorded as sales, and so would not contribute to the cancellation of books like GL/GA, Kirby's 4th World, Adams X-Men, Deadman, etc.  Instead, the claim has been made that early would-be comics dealers were scarfing up books they got through the back door at vastly under cover price, the fruits of affidavit fraud.   And they picked which books to stockpile based on the rock-star-artist as collectible trend (which is where the speculation aspect comes into play).

[Hepcat]

On 5/18/2024 at 8:24 PM, Prince Namor said:

After Marvel never led in sales throughout the entire decade of the 60's... including 1970 and 1971... it took the creation of the direct market, the glutting of reprints and the inability of comics to hold the newsstand interest vs the price, to even give Marvel a chance...and finally the complete collapse of any common sense by DC Comics in pricing themselves - once at 25 cents for a year vs Marvel's 20 cents but then a second time a year later with their 60 page Giants priced at 60 cents, before finally conceding to let them drop to 50 cents - before Marvel could finally say, "Hey look at us! We're number one!"

Hey, they had their rabid fan base to keep them going.

Still... at that point it was like saying, "Look at us! We're less inept than the rest of the industry!" 

They sure showed DC Comics!

Meanwhile... DC Comics had the Top Rated Batman TV Show from 1966-67 (and in syndication for years after) -  The Super Friends TV Cartoon in 1973, and then in some form from 1977 to 1985, The Box Office success of FOUR Superman movies from 1978 to 1987 - Batman TV Cartoons that ran from 1968 to 1977 - The Box Office success of FOUR Batman movies that ran from 1989 to 1997 - The AWARD WINNING Batman the Animated Series TV Cartoon that ran from 1992 to 1995... Heck, they were REBOOTING a second Batman series when Marvel got their movie situation finally going....

All while DC Comics rebuilt their comic company and produced most of the better comics of the mid/late 80's into the 90's... Dark Knight Returns, Batman Year One, Watchmen, Sandman, Preacher, Hellblazer, etc....

Whenever I hear people talk about Stan Lee 'saving comics' or 'making it all more popular', I just think... What??? Comics were ALREADY popular in the early 60's. Superhero Fanzines began BEFORE FF#1 came out. People were already writing to Julius Schwartz and Mort Weisinger before they ever knew Stan Lee existed. Superman averaged 823,829 comics sold per month in 1965 (the year BEFORE the Batman TV Show), which wasn't much different than the 810,000 comics sold per month that the book averaged in 1960. (The other 6 Superman Family titles averaged a combined 3 million in sales).

Their Top 8 titles per year, would continue to beat Marvel's Top 8 titles per year through 1973 (at that pint only by about 160,000 total copies...).

And not long after, both DC and Marvel were on the brink of going bankrupt in the late 70's, early 80's... Star Wars and the Direct Market saved Marvel, not Stan Lee. HE did what he did best - he sold STAN LEE as a brand to the fans, who kept on collecting on the SECONDARY market. But Marvel was able to regroup and slowly win back some of them... New fans came on board because of the creative talent - Miller, Byrne, Simonson, etc. - while the diehards eagerly scooped up Secret Wars or whatever garbage Marvel threw at them with 'Stan Lee Presents' on it. Collectibility... NOT content, was Marvel's real goal. 

As far as comic books go... it hasn't aged well. 

The portion of the collecting community that is about 'reading' is probably as small as it's ever been. 

Okay. Since I'm more of a DC fan and collector than anything else, I'm not going to disagree.

But!!! How do you explain that the vast majority of Silver and Bronze Age comic collectors today are first and foremost collectors of Marvel titles? How did that come about? I think it grew out of Stan Lee's efforts to foster Real Frantic Ones, i.e. a rabid fan base that hoarded Marvel titles.

Edited May 19 by Hepcat

[shadroch]

On 5/18/2024 at 6:45 PM, Zonker said:

No, I don't think so.  Speculators who outright bought comics in bulk would presumably have had those recorded as sales, and so would not contribute to the cancellation of books like GL/GA, Kirby's 4th World, Adams X-Men, Deadman, etc.  Instead, the claim has been made that early would-be comics dealers were scarfing up books they got through the back door at vastly under cover price, the fruits of affidavit fraud.   And they picked which books to stockpile based on the rock-star-artist as collectible trend (which is where the speculation aspect comes into play).

The wholesale price of a 12 cent comic was eight cents. A speculator could buy a thousand copies for $80 from a distributor.   A thousand copies would have cost $100 even during Kirby's DC era.  By the time comics were $1 cover, it was a different story as a brick of 1,000 was now $670, but massive corruption to save another penny or two per book, I'm not convinced. First Issues were everything back then, not so much artists.

[Prince Namor]

For books released in January 1970 until May of 1971, it's interesting to see how many are on the census (even though the census has zero to do with the Statement of Publication numbers), but just in terms of the popularity... this list is incomplete, but it does include all the Spider-man issues 83-99 and FF and Thor and Iron Man...

Conan #1 - 6411

Batman #232 - 3820

GL/GA #76 -2872

New Gods #1 - 2775

Forever People #1 - 2668

FF #112 - 2491

Batman #227 - 2432

Jimmy Olsen #134 - 2397

GL/GA #87 - 2386

ASM #97 - 2173

ASM #98 - 2038

Mr. Miracle - 1918

Batman #234 - 1957

Detective Comics #400 - 1587

Superman #233 - 1532

Hulk #141 - 1484

Conan #3 - 1343

Avengers #87 - 1233

Detective Comics #411 - 1156

Avengers #83 - 1149

[Prince Namor]

On 5/19/2024 at 9:33 AM, Hepcat said:

Okay. Since I'm more of a DC fan and collector than anything else, I'm not going to disagree.

But!!! How do you explain that the vast majority of Silver and Bronze Age comic collectors today are first and foremost collectors of Marvel titles? How did that come about? I think it grew out of Stan Lee's efforts to foster Real Frantic Ones, i.e. a rabid fan base that hoarded Marvel titles.

Not denying that at all. 

[Prince Namor]

On 5/19/2024 at 8:45 AM, Zonker said:

No, I don't think so.  Speculators who outright bought comics in bulk would presumably have had those recorded as sales, and so would not contribute to the cancellation of books like GL/GA, Kirby's 4th World, Adams X-Men, Deadman, etc.  Instead, the claim has been made that early would-be comics dealers were scarfing up books they got through the back door at vastly under cover price, the fruits of affidavit fraud.   And they picked which books to stockpile based on the rock-star-artist as collectible trend (which is where the speculation aspect comes into play).

And because a newsstand dealer isn't actually paying for the issues (thus the fraud), he can sell those in bulk for whatever he can get. 

If some wanna-be comic book dealer who is going to shows and setting up, buys 1000 copies of New Gods #1 for 8 cents each, and then sells it at shows for 20 cents - at least - he's making 12 cents per book - that $120 in 1970, the equivalent of $969 today. You do that with enough hot books...

It's the same kind of thing people were doing at Capital Distribution before they shut down... buying copies of hot books right out the back door in bulk prices from employees that were stealing from the company. 

'Wherever there's an opportunity, there will be fraudsters.'

[shadroch]

On 5/18/2024 at 9:01 PM, Prince Namor said:

And because a newsstand dealer isn't actually paying for the issues (thus the fraud), he can sell those in bulk for whatever he can get. 

If some wanna-be comic book dealer who is going to shows and setting up, buys 1000 copies of New Gods #1 for 8 cents each, and then sells it at shows for 20 cents - at least - he's making 12 cents per book - that $120 in 1970, the equivalent of $969 today. You do that with enough hot books...

It's the same kind of thing people were doing at Capital Distribution before they shut down... buying copies of hot books right out the back door in bulk prices from employees that were stealing from the company. 

'Wherever there's an opportunity, there will be fraudsters.'

Aside from there not being many shows to sell at, what is wrong with someone doing just that?  Thats exactly how the direct market evolved. There was nothing sinister in people speculating on comics. Comic distributors did nothing wrong by selling books to speculators.  The three newsstand distributors I worked with- Imperial News, crescent News, and the third, I forget the name of, but they were in New Hyde Park- all were open to the public one day a week and sold cash and carry to anyone with money.  

Of course, there was affidavit fraud; it was an industrywide issue as the mob loved cash operations, but to argue it only affected good artists like Adams X-Men is ridiculous.  Why were speculators streaming hordes of X-Men books while his highly acclaimed Avengers run sold so well? In an industry moved by first issues, people suddenly started holding books like X-Men 56 and Green Lantern 76 for good art.

[Zonker]

On 5/18/2024 at 11:06 PM, shadroch said:

The wholesale price of a 12 cent comic was eight cents. A speculator could buy a thousand copies for $80 from a distributor.   A thousand copies would have cost $100 even during Kirby's DC era.  By the time comics were $1 cover, it was a different story as a brick of 1,000 was now $670, but massive corruption to save another penny or two per book, I'm not convinced. First Issues were everything back then, not so much artists.

Everything was cheaper back then!  

My earliest Overstreet is from 1974, and Green Lantern #76 was already a huge outlier at the then-princely sum of $5 in "Mint." 

In his Comic Book Artist article, Beerbohm remembers speculating on 600 copies of Conan #1 he bought legitimately from a Nebraska newsstand at 20 cents a book (so above cover price!) and then turned around and sold at a NYC con for $1 "wholesale" or $2 "retail."

These guys (Rozanski, Beerbohm, etc.) were small fish at the time, but apparently there were a lot of them.

[shadroch]

On 5/19/2024 at 6:02 AM, Zonker said:

Everything was cheaper back then!  

My earliest Overstreet is from 1974, and Green Lantern #76 was already a huge outlier at the then-princely sum of $5 in "Mint." 

In his Comic Book Artist article, Beerbohm remembers speculating on 600 copies of Conan #1 he bought legitimately from a Nebraska newsstand at 20 cents a book (so above cover price!) and then turned around and sold at a NYC con for $1 "wholesale" or $2 "retail."

These guys (Rozanski, Beerbohm, etc.) were small fish at the time, but apparently there were a lot of them.

It sounds like what I do with Wall Street on a daily basis. If Beerbohm did buy the books above the cover price and sell them at a profit, what did he do wrong? Are you upset he sold comics for a profit?  

[Zonker]

On 5/19/2024 at 9:09 AM, shadroch said:

It sounds like what I do with Wall Street on a daily basis. If Beerbohm did buy the books above the cover price and sell them at a profit, what did he do wrong? Are you upset he sold comics for a profit?  

Not upset at all.  I just offer his story as a way of explanation why it might be worthwhile for someone to bother to supply him those Conan #1's at 20 cents a piece, which sounds like a fools' errand to our 2024 ears, but which paid for his trip to NYC back in 1970.