TEC 35 LARSON, CGC 9.2 ASKING $15K

[RareHighGrade]

The question that I have about that book involves the unusual white spots on Batman's arm. Are they the result of an unusual printer's defect, or are they the result of the cleaning process? They are not on any other Tec 35 that I have seen.

 

They are the exact same white spots that Jon Berk has on his Rockford pedigree copy, so it's probably a printing defect.

 

You are right Scott; I just looked at the copy Jon posted in the Rockford thread. It's good to know the Larson was not damaged.

[Thegoldenage]

I don't think what you're saying makes inherent sense. The guide is just one company's opinion about what an unrestored copy is worth in a given grade, and it just as often as not has no basis in reality. The true measure of the value of any unrestored book is what it sells for in the marketplace, not at what OS lists it at in the guide (although the guide creates a situation where the tail wags the dog in many cases).

 

I don't see any problem with saying this high grade pedigree book with extremely minor restoration (only "cover cleaned" is noted on the label) is worth 40% of what the same exact book would have sold for before the solvent cleaning. A volatile solvent completely evaporates leaving no trace when it dries, so it can be said that the book is truly 100% original content with no foreign material added. Compare that to a book that has been dry cleaned and has had soiling removed forcibly and mechanically (rather than mildly and chemically), leaving smear marks in the gloss and eraser crumbs embedded in the paper fibers -- yet the dry cleaned book is still worth 100% of what it was (or even more if it is higher grade) before the cleaning.

 

The only other real difference between the solvent cleaned book and the dry cleaned book is that the solvent cleaned book has been disassembled and then reassembled. That should impact the value, but not (IMO) to a -60% extent. The book is still 100% of the book it was before restoration.

 

I think you are missing a couple of points here. First, "market value" is a term that is at best vague, and at worst used to rip people off. One cannot claim that market value on a book is X, and then claim market value is whatever someone would pay. Second, dismissing the guide as "one company's opinion." is foolish. The guide, whether dead-on about a book or way off, always has a basis in reality. Research is conducted, dealers and collectors are consulted and all of these factors go into pricing books. Remember, it is a guide, not a price list.

 

I don't know a whole lot about restoration methods, but I have to agree with LH that once a book gets the PLOD, value goes out the window. I do know that for 10k or 15k I would rather have a mid/high grade unrestored copy over this one. My thinking is that the Larson will go for 10-11k in the Heritage Auction.

 

And what is inherent sense? Is it the same thing as common sense?

[nearmint]

The guide, whether dead-on about a book or way off, always has a basis in reality.

 

[Arty]

I don't know a whole lot about restoration methods, but I have to agree with LH that once a book gets the PLOD, value goes out the window. I do know that for 10k or 15k I would rather have a mid/high grade unrestored copy over this one.

 

[FFB]

I don't think what you're saying makes inherent sense. The guide is just one company's opinion about what an unrestored copy is worth in a given grade, and it just as often as not has no basis in reality. The true measure of the value of any unrestored book is what it sells for in the marketplace, not at what OS lists it at in the guide (although the guide creates a situation where the tail wags the dog in many cases).

 

I don't see any problem with saying this high grade pedigree book with extremely minor restoration (only "cover cleaned" is noted on the label) is worth 40% of what the same exact book would have sold for before the solvent cleaning. A volatile solvent completely evaporates leaving no trace when it dries, so it can be said that the book is truly 100% original content with no foreign material added. Compare that to a book that has been dry cleaned and has had soiling removed forcibly and mechanically (rather than mildly and chemically), leaving smear marks in the gloss and eraser crumbs embedded in the paper fibers -- yet the dry cleaned book is still worth 100% of what it was (or even more if it is higher grade) before the cleaning.

 

The only other real difference between the solvent cleaned book and the dry cleaned book is that the solvent cleaned book has been disassembled and then reassembled. That should impact the value, but not (IMO) to a -60% extent. The book is still 100% of the book it was before restoration.

 

I think you are missing a couple of points here. First, "market value" is a term that is at best vague, and at worst used to rip people off. One cannot claim that market value on a book is X, and then claim market value is whatever someone would pay.

 

Why not? Those two things are not logically inconsistent.

 

Second, dismissing the guide as "one company's opinion." is foolish. The guide, whether dead-on about a book or way off, always has a basis in reality. Research is conducted, dealers and collectors are consulted and all of these factors go into pricing books. Remember, it is a guide, not a price list.

 

On most books, sure, the guide has a basis in reality. On high-dollar, high-grade books though, it has no relation to reality, and as a GA collector, you know that. Action #1 is worth $485K in 9.2? Detective #27 is worth $410K in 9.2? Hardly. The guide is wildly inaccurate on more $10K+ books than it is accurate. And although I don't collect Fawcetts, I've heard many people say that for Fawcetts, the guide is way too high.

 

I don't know a whole lot about restoration methods, but I have to agree with LH that once a book gets the PLOD, value goes out the window.

 

That has been the market's general reaction to PLODs for a while now, but I think that stance is softening as people realize that not all PLODs are created equally. There is quite a bit of sales data to back that up too.

 

I do know that for 10k or 15k I would rather have a mid/high grade unrestored copy over this one.

 

That's how you collect and that's totally cool. I think you're discounting how others might look at this book though, since the amount of restoration is extremely slight and the book was already among the best existing copies before it underwent the extremely minor restoration procedure.

 

My thinking is that the Larson will go for 10-11k in the Heritage Auction.

 

You could be right about that. I have no idea what it'll sell for because this book is not something I know anything about (I'm pretty new to GA collecting). We'll just have to wait and see.

 

And what is inherent sense? Is it the same thing as common sense?

 

More or less. The sentence would have read funny if I had said "I don't think that what you're saying makes common sense."

[CW]

Scott is very right in his assertion that the guide is off in many cases. It is a "Guide" after all. Examples that I am a little more experienced in: Fantastic Comics #3, the guide tops out at $8,000 if I am not mistaken. The last high grade copy to sell publicly was a 5.5 (2002 or 2003) and it made over 12k. Detective comics #31, mid grade is around 7-8K, the 2 copies I have seen for sale in the mid grade (5.0) range were 11k and 13k.(They are both off the market at this point one sold). I could go on but if you see my point; books of the high grade and or demand / low supply nature are very hard to pin down in a guide setting. They really are marketplace books. By this I mean that their prices can change drastically and all it takes to change their guide value is one or two determined collectors who aren't paying attention to the guide. Restored books, especially high grade low resto are by all means included in this category. As the marketplace slowly accepts reto more and more these books will probably start to close the gap between their value and that of an unrestored copy of the same grade.

[Thegoldenage]

Well, at the end of the day I guess it comes down to a matter of opinion on what restored books are worth.

[Thegoldenage]

I agree with you on the unrestored part of your post. Still have to differ however on restored books. I don't see them in the same category as you, and I don't see them gaining acceptance in the marketplace proper. I wish I did see this happening, as I have many restored golden age books. Again, I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion.

[lou_fine]

I don't know a whole lot about restoration methods, but I have to agree with LH that once a book gets the PLOD, value goes out the window.

 

Goldenage;

 

From a historical sales point of view, I would generally tend to agree with you that this silliness was taking place, especially a few years ago. Recently, however, there has been a greater amount of attention being paid to the actual book within the PLOD label. As a result, books with minimal amounts of professional resto or very rare books that generally are not available in unrestored condition are selling closer to guide than before.

 

This is the way it should be since as Scott has already mentioned, all PLOD books are not created equally. It should only be natural for the marketplace to place a higher value on restored books with slight professional resto as opposed to restored books with extensive amateur resto, everything else being equal. It should also only be natural for the marketplace to place a much smaller discount to guide against the restored pre-GA book as opposed to the restored late SA book, assuming similar condition and resto levels.

 

A few years ago, a PLOD was seen as a death knell for a book no matter whether it was slight resto or extensive resto. Anything wrapped in purple was treated with equal disdain and it didn't matter what was inside. This was the stigma attached to the purple label from CGC. Whenever CGC moves away from these purple labels into their proposed universal colour label system, I believe the marketplace will adjust even further and price differences between various levels of resto will be even more obvious.

 

For awhile there, books with slight professional resto (say R1) were being priced the same way as books with extensive amateur resto (say R10) all because of the marketplace's initial fear and reaction to the colour of the label.

[CW]

I am not saying they will ever be equal (restored and unrestored) nor should they be, all I am saying is #1: the guide isn't the law. #2: In my opinion books with slight professional restoration will be treated as a different case than a book with extensive reconstruction and their price will eventually reflect their removal from pariah status. Think about it, an Amazing Fantasy 9.6 with slight professional resto probably started as an 8 or 9 unrestored. I personally prefer unrestored but shouldn't a book like this at least be worth its unrestored self. Granted an exception must be made in my statement in the case of invasive forms of resto like trimming but then the book isn't slightly restored. Just my opinion.

[non sequitur]

Oh how I hate to ask this, but...

 

What does "PLOD" stand for?

 

It comes up time and again, and I've tried to research what it means elsewhere on the internet, honestly! But I can't stand my own ignorance any longer.

 

After I'm enlightened, and my red face returns to normal, I have a lot of re-reading of prior posts to do.

[Timulty]

Purple Label Of Death.

[detective35]

Hello,

 

People have been asking about the Larson Detective 35. I bought the Detective35 at heritage a few years back and then sold it 3 years later to Richard Evans. I also owned the Detective 35 Nova Scotia which was unrestored (Graded 8.5 OW/W). The Detective 35 Nova Scotia had the white spots on Batmans arm where the Detective 35 Larson had minimal. This was simply a printing defect. The Nova Scotia has an off - cut and shows 1/4" white down the spine from the front, as does the Allentown, the Larson on the other had is a proper cut. Even with the cleaning, the Larson has bright vivid colors and white/off white paper.

 

Dwight Fuhro

[nearmint]

Thanks for the info, Dwight. I remember Richard Evans mentioning how beautiful this book is at Esquire's "State of the Hobby" panel in San Diego last summer.

[Aman619]

Hello,

 

People have been asking about the Larson Detective 35. I bought the Detective35 at heritage a few years back and then sold it 3 years later to Richard Evans. I also owned the Detective 35 Nova Scotia which was unrestored (Graded 8.5 OW/W). The Detective 35 Nova Scotia had the white spots on Batmans arm where the Detective 35 Larson had minimal. This was simply a printing defect. The Nova Scotia has an off - cut and shows 1/4" white down the spine from the front, as does the Allentown, the Larson on the other had is a proper cut. Even with the cleaning, the Larson has bright vivid colors and white/off white paper.

 

Dwight Fuhro

 

great info. Thanx and welcome to the boards. You seem to know all the best 35s, so in your opinion, which is the best copy? Larson, Nova or Allentown? and how nice is the Church copy?

[detective35]

Hello,

 

The Allentown would certainly grade the highest, probably around the 9.4 ow/w, I know who is the present owner, but it has been a fews years since I last saw it. The Larson has has a great appearance, because it is not off-cut like the Allentown and the Nova Scotia . I have never seen the Mile High/Church copy, but speaking to people who have, it is a killer...which would probably make a cut above the rest, but that is just purely speculation.

By the way, is there anyone out there that knows where there are any high grade SHADOW pulps from the 30's. I like the Shadow because he was the direct influence for Batman.

 

Dwight

dwightfu@yahoo.com

(306) 545-5460

[LearnedHand]

I am not saying they will ever be equal (restored and unrestored) nor should they be, all I am saying is #1: the guide isn't the law. #2: In my opinion books with slight professional restoration will be treated as a different case than a book with extensive reconstruction and their price will eventually reflect their removal from pariah status. Think about it, an Amazing Fantasy 9.6 with slight professional resto probably started as an 8 or 9 unrestored.

 

Lots of good reading on this thread since I last tuned in!

 

You raise some very good points, and I’m sure everyone agrees that the Guide is not the law, slight restoration versus extensive will be treated differently, and that super high grade PLOD books were probably quite nice beforehand. I guess where I get confused (not with your post, but with some statements in this general string) is that I don’t understand why people discuss Guide values (which we all know are used as guidelines), yet constantly say the Guide is irrelevant.

 

One could argue that restored books sell for a percentage of market value of their virgin counterparts, but I personally do not see this as the case. We all know that super high grade books go for multiples of Guide, and we discuss this as such. We also know that slightly restored books go for large percentages of their virgin counterparts (say for argument’s sake, a conservative 50%). If a super high grade key goes for 5X Guide, then a slightly restored PLOD copy, in the same grade, would need to sell for more than Guide in order to state that it sold for a percentage of market (versus Guide). In the example above, the PLOD copy, at 50% of the virgin book’s market value, would have to sell at 2.5X high Guide in order to say it sold at a percentage of market (versus Guide).

 

Let’s put it to the Pepsi challenge: can anyone name even one (non-aberration) example where a restored book went for over Guide? Even pedigree, or super high grade? Based on my research, I cannot. Even when it comes to one of the rarest and most sought after Goldenage keys, like Adventure Comics #40. Let's increase the odds of a PLOD book going for over Guide by picking a pedigree that always sells for multiples - the Mile High. I believe the Mile High copy of Adventure #40 is a CGC9.4, but it has the PLOD. As we all know, key MHs in NM routinely sell for anywhere from 5-10 times Guide, and often more. The MH Adventure #40 did not sell for even full 9.2 Guide.

 

Again, if there are examples to show that PLOD books sell for percentage of market versus Guide, I would really like to know about them. This would be enlightening and encouraging.

 

LH

[LearnedHand]

Just out of curiosity (if you don't mind), why did you sell the Larson copy after owning it for only 3 years?

[tth2]

Let’s put it to the Pepsi challenge: can anyone name even one (non-aberration) example where a restored book went for over Guide? Even pedigree, or super high grade? Based on my research, I cannot. Even when it comes to one of the rarest and most sought after Goldenage keys, like Adventure Comics #40. Let's increase the odds of a PLOD book going for over Guide by picking a pedigree that always sells for multiples - the Mile High. I believe the Mile High copy of Adventure #40 is a CGC9.4, but it has the PLOD. As we all know, key MHs in NM routinely sell for anywhere from 5-10 times Guide, and often more. The MH Adventure #40 did not sell for even full 9.2 Guide.

 

Again, if there are examples to show that PLOD books sell for percentage of market versus Guide, I would really like to know about them. This would be enlightening and encouraging.

Actually, my experience is that the sales of restored books closer to Guide take place most often at the other end of the spectrum, among lower grade books. I sold the following books on ebay:

 

Avenger #3, CGC 4.5 (amateur color touch)--almost 100% of OS

GS X-Men #1, CGC 6.0 (amateur color touch)--over 90% of OS

X-Men #3, CGC 5.5 (professional color touch)--over 80%

X-Men #4, CGC 5.0 (professional color touch)--over 80%

 

2 were to the same buyer, so a total of 3 different buyers, indicating that it wasn't just a singular aberration. If you consider that most raw unrestored books in those types of grades actually normally sell at discounts to OS, then the prices paid for these restored books were actually well above market for unrestored copies.

[october]

Those are some interesting numbers...especially the GSXM 1!