Are OA prices out of control? 7 7

[Xatari]

@Bronty I have an issue with someone blasting a subset of our hobby and name-calling then hyping up and profiting off that same subsection. I didn’t mention Felix in this thread. Go back and read. He came out guns blazing, so I will respond with factual information in kind. 

[Bronty]

On 6/18/2024 at 1:09 PM, Xatari said:

@Bronty I have an issue with someone blasting a subset of our hobby and name-calling then hyping up and profiting off that same subsection. I didn’t mention Felix in this thread. Go back and read. He came out guns blazing, so I will respond with factual information in kind. 

Sure, it’s not for others to decide how we should collect, it’s our business not theirs.     I agree with that.

That said, if this whole discussion doesn’t point out that being a dealer or rep isn’t difficult at times I don’t know what does.    Anything you say, someone will take issue with.    It’s not an accident that we have very few dealers on the boards.   They can’t speak freely.   
 

Maybe he could have been more respectful to you , but he’s not a thief, not a shyster, not a scammer.   If you have an issue it’s probably best taken to pm’s.

[Timecapsule85]

I think charity should definitely be a place were prices going over in the name of a good thing. I'm sure dealers pushing other dealers items outside of the cover of charity also happens. Dealers also pushing and pumping and on occasion misrepresenting art also happens at times. Nobody in this text can deny that. Looks like someone just posted an example of a dealer doing the latter. It happens.

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 9:03 AM, Xatari said:

@Nexus So funny that I’m on your mind. You shouldn’t spend time thinking about me since apparently  I’m just a just gambler and not a “true collector” like anyone else who collects first appearance or art you don’t value. 

Moreover, as I told you directly months ago, I will never buy from you again because of your shady business tactics, and BTW, you shared your own Heroes story. I didn’t even mention you. Defensive much?

You can’t have it both ways, Felix. You hype up first appearance art on your drops and raise prices accordingly then publicly bash the very customer base to which you are appealing. Seems like an odd business strategy.

$20k for the first appearance of a new Ghost Rider for whom you tell your followers you have inside knowledge that Marvel has BIG plans? Brand new Hulk character first? I don’t recall, was that $20k as well?

When we spoke you basically said you were helping these collectors learn a valuable lesson. Sorry man, that is not the way I help new collectors.

Moreover, you posted private purchases I had made that you had no business in yet felt you wanted to take another shot at me because of the way I collect.  You specifically stated I couldn’t afford the art you were selling. That’s the guy you are, and those are facts.

It doesn't bother me that you're a gambler. Gamblers are nothing new in this hobby. They'll always be around. What I don't like is that you're two-faced. You'll have your fun bashing me privately, but then come smiling to me in person, pretending to be my friend. I can't respect that. I much prefer this now, when there's no more pretense.

This latest post about the Heroes auction, though, follows that tired passive-aggressive style. Just say what you want to say.

As for "shady business tactics"...you won't deal with me, but you were a big fan of Cadence? HAHAHAHA!!!

This is a recent post you made:

You object to the gambler characterization, yet these are your own words. You're talking about stock picking/odds-making (i.e. future potential) more than anything having to do with collecting/appreciating comic art. Which again, is nothing new. Just about every collector I know has at one time or another succumbed to that temptation, to some degree. It's a lesson we've all learned (what I was referring to in our phone conversation that you asked for, which not surprisingly you have completely misrepresented to suit your narrative). The difference here, though, is that you're promoting this gambling to new collectors. While dealing in first appearance art. This sort of "help" is nothing new, either.

I know you can afford any of the art I've sold. That's not the issue. The issue is that everything is great, until the asking price is no longer worth the bet. Then the gamblers get salty. It's not that you can't afford the art, it's that you can't afford the bet. I've sold a first appearance for as much as $40K. I'll be the first to say that was a crazy price. I don't blame you or anyone for not buying it or even objecting to the price tag. But let's be honest, if it was $400 instead of $40000, you would have taken a flyer.

We don't like each other. To you, I'm a crook. To me, you're someone I find disingenuous in their motivations for collecting art. Actually, pretty much disingenuous in everything I've seen. Everyone else can decide for themselves.

[Xatari]

@Nexus

First, we are not friends nor have I ever pretended to be your friend. Let’s make no pretense about that. I have never come up to you and feigned otherwise. Nice try. I have told you directly I will never buy from you. Not on a board, to your direct ear.  You’ve never seen a purchase from me since. 

Second, I use financial language like “return” because I work in the financial industry.

Third, Where am I talking about picking odds?

Lastly, you are now blasting other peers in the hobby. My experience Cadence  was clearly different than that of others, but I have also not purchased from them since everything unfolded.

You are also leaving out facts about Heroes. You know how that went down. It’s not my story to tell. I didn’t even mention you in this thread, but you know what you did.

[dinesh_s]

On 6/17/2024 at 11:59 PM, Nexus said:

Sigh. I had a feeling there would be a conspiracy theory around this. Not surprised at all, though, that it's coming from Xatari.

For those who don't know: I was at Heroescon this past weekend with a few artists. Including Daniel Warren Johnson. Dan did a live painting demo on Saturday, and donated the piece to the auction taking place that night. All proceeds to benefit the show.

Before the auction, we all went out to dinner. While we were waiting to be served, I posted a pic of the art to socials to help promote the auction:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C8QP1PyPZRI/

Albert Moy saw my post and texted our mutual friend Lambert to bid on his behalf. At no point before, during, or after the auction did I talk/text with Albert. For that matter, at no point before or during the auction did I reach out to any potential bidders. My preference for any sale, public or private, is to let things play out organically. Which they did here.

Albert ended up winning the piece at auction for $11K. All his communication with Lambert was via text, and that would back up everything here. Everything having to do with his bidding was between him and Lambert. I wasn't even with Lambert during the bidding. I had sought out Dan and we watched it all go down in the back of the room. Neither one of us was expecting this number. I consider myself Dan's longest fan/collector/champion, and *I* wouldn't pay that number.

Does this sale help Dan's market? I suppose it doesn't hurt, but not really otherwise. His art values are fairly well established already. But let's say it flopped and sold for $100. At this point, that would also have had zero impact. I guarantee you the next art drop for Dan will be just fine, regardless of how one piece did at a show auction. High or low.

As it turned out, Albert's max bid was a LOT HIGHER than $11K. If I cared, then this should have been juiced to an even more ridiculous number. All the underbidders were in the room. Ask any of them if I approached them to talk about this piece or this auction before or during the bidding. They all bid what they wanted to bid with no influence from me.

I've been selling art on behalf artists for 10+ years now. We've gotten where we are with no games or shenanigans. I'm happy to let the market decide. When pieces come back up for sale/auction, I don't bid to "protect values". I don't ask anyone to do that on my behalf, either. I try to keep tabs on resale values, but my chief concern is keeping interest high in the artists and their art. Everything else will take care of itself.

I was a collector long before I became a rep. My posting history here goes back nearly 20 years. I've never been a fan of the speculators/gamblers/flippers who become interested in comic art for its "investment potential" above all else. That didn't change when I became a rep. Those who enter the hobby from speculating in rookie sports cards and apply that view to first appearance comic art, for example, are gamblers. They're not collectors. They might try to convince everyone else otherwise, but I'm not buying it. I'm not at all shocked that they have become my saltiest critics and detractors. My posting history will also show that I've never been shy about speaking up. Will continue to do so.

First, I was there, this is not what happened.

Second, Whatever the narrative, you should know better than to bid on pieces from artists you represent. It's a bad look in any circumstance and erodes customer trust. 

[cbaileypacker]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:29 AM, Nexus said:

It doesn't bother me that you're a gambler. Gamblers are nothing new in this hobby. They'll always be around. What I don't like is that you're two-faced. You'll have your fun bashing me privately, but then come smiling to me in person, pretending to be my friend. I can't respect that. I much prefer this now, when there's no more pretense.

This latest post about the Heroes auction, though, follows that tired passive-aggressive style. Just say what you want to say.

As for "shady business tactics"...you won't deal with me, but you were a big fan of Cadence? HAHAHAHA!!!

This is a recent post you made:

You object to the gambler characterization, yet these are your own words. You're talking about stock picking/odds-making (i.e. future potential) more than anything having to do with collecting/appreciating comic art. Which again, is nothing new. Just about every collector I know has at one time or another succumbed to that temptation, to some degree. It's a lesson we've all learned (what I was referring to in our phone conversation that you asked for, which not surprisingly you have completely misrepresented to suit your narrative). The difference here, though, is that you're promoting this gambling to new collectors. While dealing in first appearance art. This sort of "help" is nothing new, either.

I know you can afford any of the art I've sold. That's not the issue. The issue is that everything is great, until the asking price is no longer worth the bet. Then the gamblers get salty. It's not that you can't afford the art, it's that you can't afford the bet. I've sold a first appearance for as much as $40K. I'll be the first to say that was a crazy price. I don't blame you or anyone for not buying it or even objecting to the price tag. But let's be honest, if it was $400 instead of $40000, you would have taken a flyer.

We don't like each other. To you, I'm a crook. To me, you're someone I find disingenuous in their motivations for collecting art. Actually, pretty much disingenuous in everything I've seen. Everyone else can decide for themselves.

This post is gross and full of lies. Both from any professional standpoint, or even a good human standpoint.

Sad and gross. 

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 9:46 AM, Xatari said:

For any other “gamblers and non-collectors” here is Felix’s solicitation email from a while back (5/28/20), but kindly remember it is us Rookie sports card collectors who are creating this hype. 

“But what you may not know...this DPS isn't just a pretty piece of art. It's also a teaser for Ryan's followup to his smash blockbuster, ABSOLUTE CARNAGE. And the biggest news of all: It features not one, but TWO, major first appearances!!

First appearance of Virus.

First appearance of the future Venom.

Ryan and writer Donny Cates have big plans for both. We've previously sold the first appearances of new Marvel Universe mainstays Cosmic Ghost Rider and Knull. Virus and the new Venom feel as significant as those. And these two may end up even bigger.”

Speculating/gambling is, again, nothing new in this hobby. But there's no question first appearance speculation has been turbocharged in recent times by new entrants like you. So when I hype first appearance art, and then price it accordingly, it is aimed at the gambler. That art MIGHT blow up, so I'm going to get as much as I can for the artist. They only have the one opportunity to benefit. Or it might not blow up. That's the chance the gambler takes. I'll make no apologies for that. I do find it amusing, though, when the gambler takes offense to the casino he built.

[Xatari]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:57 AM, Nexus said:

Speculating/gambling is, again, nothing new in this hobby. But there's no question first appearance speculation has been turbocharged in recent times by new entrants like you. So when I hype first appearance art, and then price it accordingly, it is aimed at the gambler. That art MIGHT blow up, so I'm going to get as much as I can for the artist. They only have the one opportunity to benefit. Or it might not blow up. That's the chance the gambler takes. I'll make no apologies for that. I do find it amusing, though, when the gambler takes offense to the casino he built.

Here is where your argument and analogy breaks down. You loved to pretend like I am out here flipping art for money and trying to burn people in the hobby. In actuality I sell very little and only to fund MORE ART.  It’s such a dumb argument. 

[CGC Mike]

Things seem to be escalating in this thread.  Sometimes, it is best to just move on.  I'll be checking in later tonight.  I hope I am not disappointed.  A healthy discussion is fine.  Just don't let it get out of line.

Thanks

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:45 AM, Xatari said:

@Nexus

First, we are not friends nor have I ever pretended to be your friend. Let’s make no pretense about that. I have never come up to you and feigned otherwise. Nice try. I have told you directly I will never buy from you. Not on a board, to your direct ear.  You’ve never seen a purchase from me since. 

Second, I use financial language like “return” because I work in the financial industry.

Third, Where am I talking about picking odds?

Right, you told me we're not friends after I replied to your Facebook post. You might have felt that way before then, but up to that point I got the "Gomer Pyle" routine someone else mentioned previously. Like I said, disingenuous.

It doesn't surprise me that you work in the financial industry. You have stated that you look for value when it comes to comic art, so that tracks. It's also consistent with your Instagram post on "How to OA":

https://www.instagram.com/p/CW4KJtQvWDd/

It's very clear where priorities lie. It's not the actual art. It's not in personal nostalgia. It's in speculating on future returns of new art. The emphasis is first and foremost on MCU/Disney and first/early appearances of new characters. Not artists. Not writers. Not art. That's stock picking, to me.

On 6/18/2024 at 10:45 AM, Xatari said:

You are also leaving out facts about Heroes. You know how that went down. It’s not my story to tell. I didn’t even mention you in this thread, but you know what you did.

On 6/18/2024 at 10:49 AM, dinesh_s said:

First, I was there, this is not what happened.

Second, Whatever the narrative, you should know better than to bid on pieces from artists you represent. It's a bad look in any circumstance and erodes customer trust. 

Please, tell us what happened then.

[Xatari]

Classic bullying move @Nexus and true to form. I’d love to see some of your posts from when you were two years into collecting art and would be curious to see if your views were the same or evolve over time. We have already had that conversation publicly, Felix. I couldn’t justify the prices for the nostalgic pieces I wanted since I hadn’t observed the hobby long enough. Keep trying. It’s hilarious to me that you’re a professional in this industry and engaging this way. 

[Nexus]

On 6/18/2024 at 11:29 AM, Xatari said:

Classic bullying move @Nexus and true to form. I’d love to see some of your posts from when you were two years into collecting art and would be curious to see if your views were the same or evolve over time. We have already had that conversation publicly, Felix. I couldn’t justify the prices for the nostalgic pieces I wanted since I hadn’t observed the hobby long enough. Keep trying. It’s hilarious to me that you’re a professional in this industry and engaging this way. 

I see. So since I'm a "professional", I'm supposed to allow any and all slander/innuendo against me to go unchallenged?

I'm pretty sure you can see all my posts from the very beginning here. They're all up. I don't delete anything.

Again, please tell us what happened at the Heroes auction and how it differs from what I wrote.

[cbaileypacker]

 I hope “your” artists see these comments and what kind of person you really are. They would make just as much from their amazing artistic talents, having someone else drive their art to the post office. 
 

Worst comments I have ever seen from any “professional”.

[Xatari]

On 6/18/2024 at 11:34 AM, Nexus said:

I see. So since I'm a "professional", I'm supposed to allow any and all slander/innuendo against me to go unchallenged?

I'm pretty sure you can see all my posts from the very beginning here. They're all up. I don't delete anything.

Again, please tell us what happened at the Heroes auction and how it differs from what I wrote.

Yeah, one of my posts apparently got deleted while I was pasting your email solicitations. No worries. Another member was kind enough to screen shot it for me. 

[glendgold]

Anyone want to take a crack at describing what happened or are we all just going to use scare quotes and say vague things about Felix? If it's the latter, I'll go first. "Felix, you know that thing that 'happened?' I still think 'fondly' of it."  Am I doing it right? 

[Unstoppablejayd]

[Xatari]

@CGC Mike because this thread is about OA prices being out of control, I believe it is important for members to be able to see the mentality of those setting these prices. In this case, Felix is a dealer who is setting prices on niche art of a collecting subset (first appearance collectors) then bashing them on a public forum. He has stated he is teaching these “gamblers” a lesson. This has a direct impact on why OA prices are high land is worthy of discussion.  

[comix4fun]

On 6/18/2024 at 12:57 PM, cbaileypacker said:

This post is gross and full of lies. Both from any professional standpoint, or even a good human standpoint.

Sad and gross. 

I've been reading through the comments trying to figure out what these accusations are all about. 
I was at heroes but had to leave before the art auction. The only detailed account seems to have come from Felix. Everything else is very vague, unformed, and obtuse. 

I read through the comment you called "Gross" and "Sad" and "Full of Lies" from a "Good Human Standpoint". Can you maybe highlight or list what he lied about? What was unprofessional or less than a good human would post? I'm being serious. 
 

On 6/18/2024 at 1:45 PM, cbaileypacker said:

 I hope “your” artists see these comments and what kind of person you really are. They would make just as much from their amazing artistic talents, having someone else drive their art to the post office. 
 

Worst comments I have ever seen from any “professional”.

As a side bar....can you tell me what he's stated that offends you? I've read it a few times and I am looking for something that's not just two people disagreeing.  
I mean 2-3 specific examples? Maybe I am out of the loop on details (there are scant details here) but having been in this hobby, and seen countless ACTUAL scams, con jobs, criminal activity, lies, deceptions, threats, intimidation, faked heart conditions to pull artwork from old time collectors, altered pieces without telling unsuspecting buyers, pillaging estates when the widow doesn't know better, unprovoked profanity, and more over the last 30 years from dealers, reps, agents, talent, and other professionals... and I want to say if these are the worst comments and actions you've seen from a "professional" you've lived a very charmed, very lucky, time in this hobby. But maybe that's because I can't figure out what you're referring to....so many posts...but so few people actually speaking plainly. If you feel I've missed it, just spell it out. 

Edited June 18 by comix4fun
I can't spellll

[Chris K.]

On 6/18/2024 at 12:49 PM, dinesh_s said:

First, I was there, this is not what happened.

Second, Whatever the narrative, you should know better than to bid on pieces from artists you represent. It's a bad look in any circumstance and erodes customer trust. 

A lot of things floating around on this thread, but I think it very clear from all of the back & forth that Felix did not bid on a piece from an artist he represents.