Bidding on your own auction 7 7

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 6/27/2024 at 3:38 AM, shadroch said:

I suspect some of the major houses do, and if you read the rules on proxibids, the auction house reserves the right to bid for itself or consignees. I mostly sell through MCS, which does not allow you to bid on your own books.   The auction houses I use in Vegas and Arizona do allow it, and I think it would be silly not to use it to protect your investment.   I don't see that as shill bidding. 

But it's still shill bidding- your intent/purpose/reason/self-rationalization is irrelevant. The legality in certain circumstances and even the morality is irrelevant. It is a shill bid. You manipulated the final price of the auction with your bid on your own item- win or lose. You manipulated the perceived FMV for that item or items like it in the future by your bid. 

 

Edited June 27 by MyNameIsLegion

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/26/2024 at 9:01 PM, Funnybooks said:

Shill bidding is illegal in most states....

Shill bidding then would involve falsely advocating a position in attempts to entice others do follow that lead by bidding at an auction.

What shill bidding involves is bidding without the genuine intent to purchase, and rather with the intent to ensure price protection for the seller by one of two methods:.

• The shill bids with the intent of influencing others to bid, hoping others see his level of interest in the item, and gauge value based upon his bidding. In this scheme, the hope is that if the shill bids an amount, the other interested bidders sense one more higher bid as reasonable.

If it's an auction with an online component, then it's a federal crime: wire fraud, which is a felony.

[jimbo_7071]

On 6/27/2024 at 4:38 AM, shadroch said:

I suspect some of the major houses do, and if you read the rules on proxibids, the auction house reserves the right to bid for itself or consignees. I mostly sell through MCS, which does not allow you to bid on your own books.   The auction houses I use in Vegas and Arizona do allow it, and I think it would be silly not to use it to protect your investment.   I don't see that as shill bidding. 

Auction houses don't have a right to overrule federal law. Shill bidding in an in-person auction may be legal in some states, but shill bidding in any auction with an online component is an act of wire fraud, which is a federal crime—punishable by up to 20 years imprisonment as someone mentioned above.

Edited June 27 by jimbo_7071

[Semicentennial]

I think it's unethical but after going through the marketplace "list", I can see why some would think there is nothing wrong with shill bidding. 

[Ride the Tiger]

On 6/26/2024 at 11:45 PM, B2D327 said:

 

   You know the saying, "a tiger never changes it's stripes". 

[Phill the Governor]

On 6/26/2024 at 9:25 PM, Funnybooks said:

CHICAGO — The former owner and CEO of a sports memorabilia auction house was sentenced Thursday to 20 months in federal prison for using phony bids to fraudulently inflate the price of his company’s listings at auction.

As the owner and chief executive officer of Mastro Auctions, WILLIAM MASTRO and several colleagues placed fake bids to drive up the prices of various listings, a process known as “shill bidding.” 

They should take a look over at comicconnect. The owners were doing this back when i worked there almost a decade ago, very likely still doing it to this day.

[Funnybooks]

On 6/27/2024 at 8:00 AM, Phill the Governor said:

They should take a look over at comicconnect. The owners were doing this back when i worked there almost a decade ago, very likely still doing it to this day.

apparently, it's ethical as long as you can justify it in your own mind...learned something today

[blazingbob]

On 6/27/2024 at 8:00 AM, Phill the Governor said:

They should take a look over at comicconnect. The owners were doing this back when i worked there almost a decade ago, very likely still doing it to this day.

But everybody tells me that Auction houses are the true $$$$ reflections of the market.  They aren't?  

[comicginger1789]

I mean if anything, this thread has allowed me to add a few more characters to my list of people here (and on ebay and other places) to just flat out avoid buying from because I don't agree with their thinking or reasoning at all.

[ThothAmon]

On 6/27/2024 at 8:50 AM, comicginger1789 said:

I mean if anything, this thread has allowed me to add a few more characters to my list of people here (and on ebay and other places) to just flat out avoid buying from because I don't agree with their thinking or reasoning at all.

Must be a long list? I still buy Maple Syrup even though I know the Q Cartel controls the price. Point is, assume it’s always happening, set a budget and buy what gives you pleasure to own. Any profits in the future will be dumb luck. 

[Funnybooks]

On 6/27/2024 at 8:50 AM, comicginger1789 said:

I mean if anything, this thread has allowed me to add a few more characters to my list of people here (and on ebay and other places) to just flat out avoid buying from because I don't agree with their thinking or reasoning at all.

nah...no new names on the list from this conversation

[Phill the Governor]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:02 AM, ThothAmon said:

Must be a long list? I still buy Maple Syrup even though I know the Q Cartel controls the price. Point is, assume it’s always happening, set a budget and buy what gives you pleasure to own. Any profits in the future will be dumb luck. 

Exactly. I still buy from CC, and don't dissuade people from bidding there or anywhere else for that matter. The rule is never bid early, and and set the price you're willing to go up to before the auction ends.

It is objectively crazy though how throughout the years I've had at least a dozen people independently express frustration at constantly winning stuff at CC for just under their high bid, without me mentioning I use to work there. That is to say: operate a certain way, change nothing, and over time enough people begin to see behind the curtain.

[blazingbob]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:12 AM, Phill the Governor said:

Exactly. I still buy from CC, and don't dissuade people from bidding there or anywhere else for that matter. The rule is never bid early, and and set the price you're willing to go up to before the auction ends.

It is objectively crazy though how throughout the years I've had at least a dozen people independently express frustration at constantly winning stuff at CC for just under their high bid, without me mentioning I use to work there. That is to say: operate a certain way, change nothing, and over time enough people begin to see behind the curtain.

I'm guessing your non-disclosure agreement has expired.  

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:12 AM, Phill the Governor said:

Exactly. I still buy from CC, and don't dissuade people from bidding there or anywhere else for that matter. The rule is never bid early, and and set the price you're willing to go up to before the auction ends.

It is objectively crazy though how throughout the years I've had at least a dozen people independently express frustration at constantly winning stuff at CC for just under their high bid, without me mentioning I use to work there. That is to say: operate a certain way, change nothing, and over time enough people begin to see behind the curtain.

I bid what I'm willing to pay, like most, not wining a single book for almost a decade, as, apparently, some folks "bid" amounts that obliterate mine. Still, I'm always thrilled to not have won for those amounts.

[blazingbob]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:19 AM, Tec-Tac-Toe said:

I bid what I'm willing to pay, like most, not wining a single book for almost a decade, as, apparently, some folks "bid" amounts that obliterate mine. Still, I'm always thrilled to not have won for those amounts.

The auction market needs people like you to set a floor.  Without bidders the auction model doesn't work.  Unfortunately if you never win anything you get bored and stop bidding.  Auction houses are just like the casino's.  Without players they don't work.

[EastEnd1]

Have never done it, and never will... I'm not that desperate to make an extra dollar on funny books.

[Phill the Governor]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:16 AM, blazingbob said:

I'm guessing your non-disclosure agreement has expired.  

On a serious note, my mention doesn't hold a candle to other things that have been said by others throughout the years. Reputations are earned, as they say, and this is a relatively small hobby. I owe my former employers absolutely nothing.

[wiparker824]

What I’ve learned from this thread: if you’re OP or anyone who likes to shill bid their own auctions why bother? Just send your books to CC or Heritage where apparently they’ll do it for you. That way you don’t run the risk of buying it yourself. Seems like the obvious solution here.

Unless of course you’re in it for the thrill of the shill. 

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:23 AM, blazingbob said:

The auction market needs people like you to set a floor.  Without bidders the auction model doesn't work.  Unfortunately if you never win anything you get bored and stop bidding.  Auction houses are just like the casino's.  Without players they don't work.

I still enjoy bidding despite winning roughly one out of 10 or 15 bids for long before the COVID 19 price surge, but especially afterward. Its primarily due to the anticipation of "Will I win it for that (relatively) little?" I'll also note that despite the recent relative price drops of many books, the ones I'm interested in at this point are not selling cheap.

[Ride the Tiger]

So what's the penalty for retracting a bid in hopes of seeing what the reserve is set at. Of course using the old, "I left ebay open and my kid placed a bid by accident" excuse.