At what point is a deal a deal? 2 2

[newshane]

1. I list an item on the boards for a price, but make it clear I'm taking any and all offers. 

2. I get a lowball offer via PM. 

3. I accept the offered amount, but have concerns about the proposed payment method (PayPal). I explain these concerns, but I make it clear that I'm willing to negotiate. At no point is his offer flatly rejected. I do explain, however, that the book is packed and ready to send elsewhere to auction. 

4. The person who made the offer comes back and explains that he checked his banking account and doesn't actually have the funds to cover the offer. 

5. The person retracts his offer. 

I think the guy was surprised I accepted his offer and got cold feet. 

It got me thinking, at what point is it a done deal? 

I mean, what would he have done had I flatly accepted his offer? Would he have backed out? 

If you put forward an offer, then I think you are ready, willing, and able. 

However, the negotiations were still underway, leading me to wonder at what point does backing out of a deal become egregious? 

I told the guy that sort of behavior is generally greatly frowned upon here on the boards. I also promised that I wouldn't put him on blast, and I won't. 

I'm just tired of people's games. I can only imagine the headaches and manure that full-time dealers have to deal with. 

I'm just curious what the board thinks. 

[Ryan.]

I'm assuming the buyer intended to buy the book via PayPal so as to use a credit card. When that payment method was rejected he couldn't move forward with a direct EFT payment because he didn't have the funds available. I'm inclined to say that a deal isn't a deal until both parties have agreed to all purchase conditions. 

Edited Thursday at 12:11 PM by Ryan.

[newshane]

On 7/4/2024 at 7:10 AM, Ryan. said:

I'm assuming the buyer intended to buy the book via PayPal so as to use a credit card. When that payment method was rejected he couldn't move forward with a direct EFT payment because he didn't have the funds available. I'm inclined to say that a deal isn't a deal until both parties have agreed to all purchase conditions. 

I didn’t reject the payment method though. Again, what would he have done had I simply said, “deal?” 

[jimjum12]

I've always been willing to let a deal lapse if someone wants out, unless it becomes a habit. I do like a valid reason, even if it's a lie. To me, it's a deal when funds are remitted. If that doesn't occur in a week or two, back in the window it goes. This is negotiable in regard to layaway. That's me, though. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Grendel72]

On 7/4/2024 at 10:35 AM, newshane said:

I accept the offered amount, but have concerns about the proposed payment method (PayPal). I explain these concerns, but I make it clear that I'm willing to negotiate.

No deal is made cos you're still negotiating. Backing out is still an option.  Conversely let's say you couldn't come to terms for the  payment method and he said a deal was done.  Would you disagree? Or you did not agree to the payment method and you said no deal. Did u renege?

[jimjum12]

On 7/4/2024 at 10:30 AM, Grendel72 said:

No deal is made cos you're still negotiating. Backing out is still an option.  Conversely let's say you couldn't come to terms for the  payment method and he said a deal was done.  Would you disagree? Or you did not agree to the payment method and you said no deal. Did u renege?

He did mention the fellow specified Paypal so he could USE a Credit Card. That tells me he got cold feet after jerking someone's chain, which is, somewhat uncool. I would be reluctant to entertain future offers from that buyer. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) 

[Funnybooks]

what were the terms for payment laid out in the sales thread?

[newshane]

On 7/4/2024 at 10:09 AM, Funnybooks said:

what were the terms for payment laid out in the sales thread?

PAYMENT: Personal check, cashiers check, money order, Zelle, or Venmo. We can talk about PayPal if that's the only way for you. Item will ship when payment clears. 

 

NOTE: I also offered a payment plan, so the excuse that he suddenly didn't have the funds is suspect. 

[newshane]

On 7/4/2024 at 9:30 AM, Grendel72 said:

No deal is made cos you're still negotiating. Backing out is still an option.  Conversely let's say you couldn't come to terms for the  payment method and he said a deal was done.  Would you disagree? Or you did not agree to the payment method and you said no deal. Did u renege?

I explained that I was weary of using PayPal because they have started freezing my access to funds for some reason. They are putting 30-60 day holds before I can withdraw the money. That's why, as a seller, I'm kind of raw on PayPal. 

I also explained that I would contact PayPal to see if they could remove the limitations on my account (apparently I don't use PayPal enough). 

It's at that point that he suddenly backed out. 

Here is his response: 

my apologies I (very stupidly) just looked into the payment methods I could use for this and I unfortunately won't be able to cover the $400 at this time (or very quickly) so I think it'd probably be best to rescind my offer given your alternatives.

I mistakenly assumed I would be able to cover my offer but after checking my available payment methods I will not be able to add that balance.

 

[newshane]

On 7/4/2024 at 9:30 AM, Grendel72 said:

No deal is made cos you're still negotiating. Backing out is still an option.  Conversely let's say you couldn't come to terms for the  payment method and he said a deal was done.  Would you disagree? Or you did not agree to the payment method and you said no deal. Did u renege?

 

"No deal is made cos you're still negotiating. Backing out is still an option." I understand this angle. That's why I'm here asking for opinions. 

"Conversely let's say you couldn't come to terms for the  payment method and he said a deal was done.  Would you disagree?" I don't understand your question. Either the buyer meets the listed requirements for sale or they don't. If you can clarify a bit, I'd love to answer. 

"Or you did not agree to the payment method and you said no deal. Did u renege?" I made it clear in the original terms that I would entertain PayPal even though it wasn't my first choice. I did not renege on anything. 

[jimjum12]

On 7/4/2024 at 11:53 AM, newshane said:

I explained that I was weary of using PayPal because they have started freezing my access to funds for some reason. They are putting 30-60 day holds before I can withdraw the money. That's why, as a seller, I'm kind of raw on PayPal. 

I also explained that I would contact PayPal to see if they could remove the limitations on my account (apparently I don't use PayPal enough). 

It's at that point that he suddenly backed out. 

Here is his response: 

my apologies I (very stupidly) just looked into the payment methods I could use for this and I unfortunately won't be able to cover the $400 at this time (or very quickly) so I think it'd probably be best to rescind my offer given your alternatives.

I mistakenly assumed I would be able to cover my offer but after checking my available payment methods I will not be able to add that balance.

 

I'm on the verge of doing the same thing. Sometimes an entity gets so greedy that their failure is imperative. All they add is some security in exchange for a robust skimming. They should have no justification for withholding funds as well. It's my Business, not theirs. Never had an issue in over 15 years. I'm on the verge of closing shop anyway. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[newshane]

On 7/4/2024 at 7:10 AM, Ryan. said:

I'm assuming the buyer intended to buy the book via PayPal so as to use a credit card. When that payment method was rejected he couldn't move forward with a direct EFT payment because he didn't have the funds available. I'm inclined to say that a deal isn't a deal until both parties have agreed to all purchase conditions. 

He could have used a credit card on Venmo. Remember, I also did not reject PayPal as a method. I said we could talk about it, and that's what we were doing when he backed out. 

[newshane]

I'm not angry at anyone by the way, and I'm not setting out to ruin anyone here on the boards. 

I just see both angles here. 

It's hard not to see it from my own set of glasses, however. I would never make an offer unless I had the money to cover the offer and was willing to make the deal. That's just the way that I do business (look at my kudos). The buyer in question is claiming that he didn't have the money in the first place, which to me sounds like a shady way to take an out. 

He was shocked that I took the lowball. He knew that the book was going to auction, so maybe he felt okay with it. He saw the payment method negotiations as a comfortable way to ease out of the deal. 

Is it WRONG? Well, that's why am asking. But regardless of the board's conclusions, it put a bad taste in my mouth, and the guy is definitely on my personal "no deal" list. 

[Funnybooks]

On 7/4/2024 at 11:50 AM, newshane said:

PAYMENT: Personal check, cashiers check, money order, Zelle, or Venmo. We can talk about PayPal if that's the only way for you. Item will ship when payment clears. 

 

NOTE: I also offered a payment plan, so the excuse that he suddenly didn't have the funds is suspect. 

ty

i'm not suggesting that his excuse is justified....however, I will plays devils advocate by suggesting that once you included that paypal as an option that would require "we can talk about paypal", that no claim to purchase has been solidified and that a "buyer" could back out during "talks". I believe you would have a stronger case if you would have not included paypal as an option or paypal as an option depending on terms

[newshane]

On 7/4/2024 at 11:15 AM, Funnybooks said:

ty

i'm not suggesting that his excuse is justified....however, I will plays devils advocate by suggesting that once you included that paypal as an option that would require "we can talk about paypal", that no claim to purchase has been solidified and that a "buyer" could back out during "talks". I believe you would have a stronger case if you would have not included paypal as an option or paypal as an option depending on terms

Thanks for your input. 

I'm just frustrated with PayPal. I have done tens of thousands in business with them over the years, but they suddenly want to hold my money hostage because I only do a few deals a year? I used to accept PayPal, no problem. I'd even eat a fee here and there. But to hold my money hostage? 

You're right. I should have just left PayPal off the listing. 

Still think it's super weak of the other guy to back out. All I had to do was give PayPal customer service a call, which I told him I would do. 

[Funnybooks]

On 7/4/2024 at 12:35 PM, newshane said:

Thanks for your input. 

I'm just frustrated with PayPal. I have done tens of thousands in business with them over the years, but they suddenly want to hold my money hostage because I only do a few deals a year? I used to accept PayPal, no problem. I'd even eat a fee here and there. But to hold my money hostage? 

You're right. I should have just left PayPal off the listing. 

Still think it's super weak of the other guy to back out. All I had to do was give PayPal customer service a call, which I told him I would do. 

the "buyer" was obviously playing games and that's a shame. Consider it a blessing...you could have sent him the book and he could have made claims that could have truly ruined this whole experience for you. 

[newshane]

On 7/4/2024 at 11:39 AM, Funnybooks said:

the "buyer" was obviously playing games and that's a shame. Consider it a blessing...you could have sent him the book and he could have made claims that could have truly ruined this whole experience for you. 

He is being humble about it all. He acknowledged it was a bad move and was willing to accept the consequences. I just told him to take it as a learning experience, but I did question his honesty. 

I'd rather hear him say, "Man, I just got cold feet on it." 

I'd rather hear him say, "I just don't want it after all." 

It's the whole "oops, I didn't have the money in the first place" excuse that makes me roll my eyes. I just can't wrap my head around making an offer without the funds. He didn't know what to do when I said yes to his lowball. 

[Grendel72]

On 7/4/2024 at 11:53 PM, newshane said:

I explained that I was weary of using PayPal because they have started freezing my access to funds for some reason. They are putting 30-60 day holds before I can withdraw the money. That's why, as a seller, I'm kind of raw on PayPal. 

I also explained that I would contact PayPal to see if they could remove the limitations on my account (apparently I don't use PayPal enough). 

It's at that point that he suddenly backed out. 

 

 

In terms of integrity and sincerity in closing the deal, you're a clear winner compared to the buyer. As posted by others, the buyer specifically wanted to use PayPal as he wanted to use his credit card and you actually didn't want to use PayPal for their practices. You just left the door open when you stated PayPal was an option albeit you would need to discuss. I do believe if your talks with PayPal didn't work out, you would have been open to work out some other deal or even accept PayPal. But all that is moot. The terms of your sale allowed you to reject any deal where PayPal was concerned (even if that wasnt your intention). If you had opted out of the deal cos the seller insisted on PayPal, I would support you in saying no deal was made. 

[grendel013]

On 7/4/2024 at 12:52 PM, newshane said:

It's the whole "oops, I didn't have the money in the first place" excuse that makes me roll my eyes. I just can't wrap my head around making an offer without the funds. He didn't know what to do when I said yes to his lowball. 

People I love and care about do stoopid things sometimes so I guess a stranger could do the same. A lot of the times it turns out they had a couple drinks or tried some edibles. I know men also do stoopid things for women too but I don't know what book you were selling so Idk.

[KCOComics]

I appreciate your frustration... and I'm kind of tempted to revisit your sales thread and make you low ball offers  

But I think a deal isn't done until both parties agree to every part. It sounds like his backing out was during the negotiations and before things were finalized, so I think he was within his right.  Doesn't make it less frustrating!