Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:22 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

The general public does. Even if you include well-educated-in-this-area comic fans, that's far less than 1% of the people that believe Stan created everything.

But would they even care?  We all are collectors here. I very rarely discuss the hobby with outsiders because you can just see their eyes start to glaze over.

If you tell anybody that comic books is a multi-billion dollar industry across the globe they are incredulous and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

Most of the general public are happy with their movie blockbusters. Most of them have no idea that a significant proportion of produced movies and TV aside and outside of the super-hero genre originated in comic books.

They're not that invested.  Fact.

[Mmehdy]

On 9/20/2024 at 9:46 AM, CGC Mike said:

Whoa.  Everything was fine here this morning.  Lets keep in mind that there is a person with feelings behind their id's.  Both sides should be able to present their opinions in a respectful way.  If not, I will be forced to start banning people from the topic.  

Thanks for the "NINE" lives Mike!

[Chip Cataldo]

On 9/20/2024 at 1:29 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

But would they even care?  We all are collectors here. I very rarely discuss the hobby with outsiders because you can just see their eyes start to glaze over.

If you tell anybody that comic books is a multi-billion dollar industry across the globe they are incredulous and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

Most of the general public are happy with their movie blockbusters. Most of them have no idea that a significant proportion of produced movies and TV aside and outside of the super-hero genre originated in comic books.

They're not that invested.  Fact.

Using that statement logic...blow it up, then. Does anyone really care that Shohei went 50-50 this year if they're not into sports? Does anyone really care that Taylor and Travis are dating if they're not into celebrity gossip? Does anyone really care about (generic political candidate personal attribute that affects no one) if they're not into politics? Does anyone really care if McCartney comes out with another album if they're not into music? Who really CARES about anything other than their personal lives and family/friends that are a part of it?

People in the general public could care to a degree if they knew. My Dad (who knows very little about the comic industry) knew who Stan was, he didn't know even the names of Jack or Steve. When I told him the story, he said, "Well, I thought Stan created everything himself. That's not right." The conversation was more than that, but that was his initial reaction.

 

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:29 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

One key thing about Ditko and Kirby that went beyond their art was they were master storytellers. Their comics were like movies on pages. A bunch of people can draw art, but Kirby and Ditko could make a story come to life in comics. They were gold standard storytellers. 

I like a wide range of art styles, could be realistic and detailed, or cartoony and much simpler, but the common factor is talent at laying out the panels, pacing, an ability to carry you through the story and keep you turning the pages to the end.

Kirby had that energy and excitement for me.

Edited 4 hours ago by Ken Aldred

[Mr Sneeze]

On 9/20/2024 at 1:29 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

But would they even care?  We all are collectors here. I very rarely discuss the hobby with outsiders because you can just see their eyes start to glaze over.

If you tell anybody that comic books is a multi-billion dollar industry across the globe they are incredulous and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

Most of the general public are happy with their movie blockbusters. Most of them have no idea that a significant proportion of produced movies and TV aside and outside of the super-hero genre originated in comic books.

They're not that invested.  Fact.

Are these justifications for maintaining a fairy tale? Isn’t the general public, disinterested or not, entitled to better?

[Bookery]

 On 9/20/2024 at 2:28 AM, mrc said:

I wish people would stop saying this. Literally no one believes Stan 'came up with everything.' It's just lazy rhetoric.

On 9/20/2024 at 1:22 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

The general public does. Even if you include well-educated-in-this-area comic fans, that's far less than 1% of the people that believe Stan created everything.

But the real truth is that  the public does not care.  The 99% you are talking about are movie-goers.  They have never read a comic book in their lives and they are not about to start now, no matter how many movies they crank out.  Yes... even if they believe that Stan Lee created everything, to them he's still just that old man who's fun to spot in cameos.  Period.  I imagine if you asked who created Captain America, the majority would answer Chris Evans. They won'y buy this book, and they won't buy "Origins".  Who will but this book are the 1% who are steeped in comic book lore, who already know Stan Lee didn't do a lot of the stuff that is claimed, but who will probably learn of some facts here and there they didn't already know, and some anecdotes they might not have caught in their original articles.   This will be useful to them, and as on this thread, gives them material for debate.  But the idea that this is going to change public perception, or stop newspapers from printing the same stuff they always do, just isn't so (through no fault of Mr. Gower's, but it's just the way of things).   You tell the public some guy named Stan Lee created the Marvel universe and they'll look at you blankly and say "... okay".  You tell them no!  It's all a lie!  Stan Lee stole credit from a bunch of other people, and they'll look at you blankly and say "... okay".

The only reason Stan Lee's name is known at all is he lived nearly 100 years and was making public appearances almost to the end, long after everyone else involved was dead.  It's probably already happening.  In a few more years, or a decade or two, few at all will even know the names of Lee or Kirby or Ditko outside of historical purists.  Maybe none of those folks would have had careers if it weren't for somebody like Outcault (or choose your pioneer of choice) -- and just go out and see how many people have heard of him!

 

[Bookery]

On 9/20/2024 at 1:29 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

But would they even care?  We all are collectors here. I very rarely discuss the hobby with outsiders because you can just see their eyes start to glaze over.

If you tell anybody that comic books is a multi-billion dollar industry across the globe they are incredulous and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

Most of the general public are happy with their movie blockbusters. Most of them have no idea that a significant proportion of produced movies and TV aside and outside of the super-hero genre originated in comic books.

They're not that invested.  Fact.

Dang!  While I was composing my post it looks like you beat me to it.

[Mr Sneeze]

The history of the medium deserves to be told regardless of the good and bad actors. 
 

[Bookery]

On 9/20/2024 at 1:37 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Using that statement logic...blow it up, then. Does anyone really care that Shohei went 50-50 this year if they're not into sports? Does anyone really care that Taylor and Travis are dating if they're not into celebrity gossip? Does anyone really care about (generic political candidate personal attribute that affects no one) if they're not into politics? Does anyone really care if McCartney comes out with another album if they're not into music? Who really CARES about anything other than their personal lives and family/friends that are a part of it?

People in the general public could care to a degree if they knew. My Dad (who knows very little about the comic industry) knew who Stan was, he didn't know even the names of Jack or Steve. When I told him the story, he said, "Well, I thought Stan created everything himself. That's not right." The conversation was more than that, but that was his initial reaction.

 

This is your statement... not mine...

The general public does. Even if you include well-educated-in-this-area comic fans, that's far less than 1% of the people that believe Stan created everything.

You were suggesting the book will correct the record for those 99% out there that believe The Lie.  I'm saying the book will only be seen by the 1% that already know it's a lie, but may not know about all the lies, and will be curious to find out about them.  This is a book for comic book nerds... no, more narrowly... comic book history nerds.  It's not fair to argue that it's anything more than that.  My book(s) were, and are, the only comprehensive price guides and consolidated data books on pulps ever done.  They will likely remain so.  By my own estimation that means they are relevant to, maybe, 2,000 people worldwide.  And that's fine.  They were still worth doing, for me.  But they aren't going to change the "general public's" opinion of, or even awareness of, pulps (not even with Jim Steranko's introduction... another name the "general public" will never know).

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:37 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Does anyone really care that Shohei went 50-50 this year if they're not into sports? Does anyone really care that Taylor and Travis are dating if they're not into celebrity gossip?

I don't know. I've never heard of these things. I'm intrigued...but don't care enough to google it. 

In all seriousness my point is that this book will appeal to comic collectors I guess...some of 'em....and some will enjoy confirmation of their suspicions, some will of course reject it. It's not the Bible or the Ten Commandments after all, everything can be argued against, everything!  People's memories are imperfect as others have said, recollections are fuzzy over time. The world of Rock Music is a prime example, where band members of groups who toured and played together for years will all have different 'it's gospel' recollections of the same stories. And all will swear their version is the only truth.

Hindsight is always 20/20

Will it change the overall universal held opinion of good 'ol Stan the Man?

It may well in the hobby, outside of the hobby, I seriously doubt it. Comic books may be huge in terms of the mighty dollar and important to us enthusiasts, but to the average Joe, it's niche and nerdy.

This is just a side point. My strongest objection is that there is no humility or good grace about how this book is being marketed.

It's 'my way or the highway' and statements like that quoted below is never going to encourage me to take it seriously, or indeed to purchase it.

On 9/20/2024 at 9:48 AM, Prince Namor said:

You can cry all you want about your hero. I'm going to spend the rest of my life shoving the truth right down the throat of the world.

 

[Bookery]

On 9/20/2024 at 1:47 PM, Mr Sneeze said:

The history of the medium deserves to be told regardless of the good and bad actors. 
 

Exactly.  I agree.  But let's not get carried away beyond that to insinuate it will be told to anyone other than already-interested parties.  And that will have to be good enough.

There are, at present, over 16,000 different biographies about Abraham Lincoln.  When asked what was the war going on while Lincoln was president, the public is apt to answer WW2 or Vietnam.  Just sayin'...

[Chip Cataldo]

On 9/20/2024 at 1:56 PM, Bookery said:

You were suggesting the book will correct the record for those 99% out there that believe The Lie.

I wasn't, no. Not at all. However if it corrects the record for a comic fan that's out to a Marvel movie with his family or friends and they mention that they're grateful that Stan created these characters, then the comic fan can correct them.

Why would I think this book would correct all of the misinformed? Half of the population doesn't even know that physical comic books even exist anymore.

I think one of the main problems of this forum is that every poster assumes every other poster is a complete m0r0n.

[Bookery]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:25 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

I think one of the main problems of this forum is that every poster assumes every other poster is a complete m0r0n.

Not me!

Now this guy... I'm not so sure...

PS - now I'm not sure who this "Col Freeper" guy is... but I've heard it on good authority that Stan Lee wrote the word balloon. 

 

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 9/20/2024 at 1:37 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Using that statement logic...blow it up, then. Does anyone really care that Shohei went 50-50 this year if they're not into sports? Does anyone really care that Taylor and Travis are dating if they're not into celebrity gossip? Does anyone really care about (generic political candidate personal attribute that affects no one) if they're not into politics? Does anyone really care if McCartney comes out with another album if they're not into music? Who really CARES about anything other than their personal lives and family/friends that are a part of it?

People in the general public could care to a degree if they knew. My Dad (who knows very little about the comic industry) knew who Stan was, he didn't know even the names of Jack or Steve. When I told him the story, he said, "Well, I thought Stan created everything himself. That's not right." The conversation was more than that, but that was his initial reaction.

 

[jimjum12]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:01 PM, Bookery said:

Exactly.  I agree.  But let's not get carried away beyond that to insinuate it will be told to anyone other than already-interested parties.  And that will have to be good enough.

There are, at present, over 16,000 different biographies about Abraham Lincoln.  When asked what was the war going on while Lincoln was president, the public is apt to answer WW2 or Vietnam.  Just sayin'...

... and here I thought it was the War of the Roses. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 9/20/2024 at 4:02 PM, jimjum12 said:

... and here I thought it was the War of the Roses. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

If I remember correctly, it was the Clone Wars.

[justadude]

I see this as "independently published" on Amazon, but interested if there was any form of peer review. I may have missed this already if covered.