Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[Hschwartz]

There are so many gray areas here that need to be taken in context of the times and can't really ever be certain about since all of the principals have now passed on and nobody in the early sixties could possibly have guessed how important these characters would be to so many people sixty year later.

I will start by agreeing with Prince Namor and then go on to the areas I disagree with him. Keep in mind these are represented as my opinions and not in any way as facts. 

The so called Marvel Method was a real rip off to the artists. All of them deserved plotting credit and should have been paid much more than they were. Comparing a Stan lee marvel Comic to an Al Feldstein EC Comic  showcases how much more work the artist had to put in. With a Feldstein EC Comic the artist got a very detailed description on top of the panel and he just had to fill in the blanks. With a Marvel Comic the artist had to decide exactly where all the action would go and sequence the whole story in a way that made it very easy for Stan to put in the dialogue. This was a real injustice but I can't call it stealing. Stealing would be if a check was made out to Wally Wood and Stan crossed out his name and wrote Stan Lee on the check. If being underpaid and under compensated for the work provided is stealing I think half of America could say they were stolen from when you see CEO pay compared to the average worker. Another point is that Stan Lee was editor in chief and not the owner. Martin Goodman made final decisions on salary even though I'm sure Stan had a lot of influence.

I agree with Prince Namor that Stan had a lot to answer for and took way more credit than he deserved. All of these characters were co creations and Stan should have been more forthcoming particularly when the movies started and so many non comic book people were paying attention. I was particularly annoyed when he got his Hollywood Walk of Fame footprint and gave a speech without mentioning Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko at all. Without these two he would never have gotten there. Stan did better when pressed by comic book people but totally failed to give credit when he was interviewed by news people who didn't know the comic industry. 

Now my big disagreement with Prince Namor is on Stan's contribution to the comics themselves. In my opinion the best Marvel Comics ever done were Spider-Man 31-33 and Fantastic Four 48-51. Other great comics were Daredevil 7, Avengers 9, and Captain America 110, 111, and 113. These were drawn by Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Wally Wood, Don Heck, and Jim Steranko. Guess whose name is attached to all of them Stan Lee. He must be the luckiest guy in the world if he was just riding on all of these artists coat tails and wasn't a crucial element of their success. Many people have extolled the writing abilities of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko but not so much the other three mentioned. I also love Daredevil 1-20 which was helmed by four different artists but I loved the stories in all of them. This is why I think Stan was the most important person in Marvel's success in the sixties. He humanized the characters in a way that Kirby and Ditko couldn't and in my opinion that made all of the difference.

I have read all of the fourth world Kirby DC Comics and The Question, Blue Beetle, Creeper and Hawk and Dove by Ditko. These were all perfectly acceptable comics but they never moved me the way the Stan Lee Marvel characters did. Again this is just my opinion. Many people think the New Gods were better than the Marvel books and they should express it but I just don't agree. 

My biggest point is that I'm able to separate Stan lee the man from Stan lee the writer. He was a big disappointment in some ways as a person but still an incredible writer whose stories will last for quite a while.

[jimjum12]

On 9/17/2024 at 9:22 PM, Funnybooks said:

been there...at least you know what you're in for when you arrive

What happen in the cornfield stay in the cornfield. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 9/18/2024 at 8:11 AM, comicwiz said:

You use the "truth is incontrovertible" quote in your sig, and you seem to either be a potent combination of panic or ignorance, maybe both, but all I've done is post the truth. Your inabiity to handle it is the issue here, don't characterize it as anything else. And if you prefer to tip toe around it, or back peddle, don't do it without at least acknolwedging people are taking time/effort to respond civily, and with references to real events, not made up observations unrelated to the industry. 

Not to nitpick, but Steranko was definitely working at Marvel when Kirby was on his way out, so his comment about Stan may not deserve the implied dismissiveness. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

He certainly NEVER bashed any of his co-contributors in their respective publications, helping some of them to achieve household name status. That's the type of stuff I would present as fact. the anecdotal hearsay in fan publications, not so much. Especially when much of it occurred after the Kirby Estate lawsuit was being taken seriously, and the prospect of other big paydays were possible if others began to "toe the party line". Now this here is opinion, mine, none of them ever duplicated the same level of success without Stan. The 4th World would likely have been much less of a cringe fest, if Stan had polished it up.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/18/2024 at 12:48 PM, Hschwartz said:

Other great comics were Daredevil 7, Avengers 9, and Captain America 110, 111, and 113. These were drawn by Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Wally Wood, Don Heck, and Jim Steranko.

I believe Steranko now has a writing credit for his CA run. The original credits to #111 read: "Lee, Steranko, Sinnott, and Rosen" without specifying who did the dialogue. I think the other issues were credited similarly (and vaguely).

[Hschwartz]

I just got them out and they are all vague on who does what. lee's name is on all of them but we know that is under dispute on who did what. Here's the dramatic dialogue in 113  that to me is Stan lee's writing "A man can be destroyed! A team or an army can be destroyed.  But how can you destroy an ideal- A dream? How do you destroy a living symbol--or  his indomitable will--his unquenchable spirit? Some people will surely call this corny but I think it's great dramatic writing capturing the essence of what Captain America is supposed to stand for. Do I know for sure that Lee dialogued it and not Steranko? No I don't but based on the comics that went before I feel it is more likely Lee's words.

[VintageComics]

On 9/18/2024 at 1:42 PM, mrc said:

On 9/18/2024 at 1:16 PM, royaluglydudes said:

Very true, but I also don't think most people will never really get the full picture of the things that Lee did or didn't create, not to mention some of the dishonest things he did.  He's the Marvel mascot, for lack of a better term, and the vast majority of comic buyers will have no idea, beyond the established myths, of how these characters and worlds were created and will continue to see him as the be all end all in terms of The Marvel Universe.

Nonsense.............even as a 10 yr old when I first started reading ASM & FF it was obvious (to me) how the books were created and, to his credit Lee facilitated that by promoting the fandom/convention side of things. The 'witty dialogue' that Stan created was probably the only reason I religiously purchased at least the first fifty of the aforementioned titles.

Jack Kirby - Stan Lee = New Gods

Now, New Gods is good, but it's not exactly a 'bunch of laughs!'  is it?      

Yes. 

So, was it Sol Brodsky with Kirby et all that made Marvel the brand that it was? Or was it Stan Lee?

[Mmehdy]

On 9/18/2024 at 11:51 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I believe Steranko now has a writing credit for his CA run. The original credits to #111 read: "Lee, Steranko, Sinnott, and Rosen" without specifying who did the dialogue. I think the other issues were credited similarly (and vaguely).

which goes to the very point...the early days...when it mattered the most...I think Stan did have some limited input based up my interactions with him, but there is no way he is writing a bunch of books and going to all those colleges and promo trips.

[VintageComics]

On 9/18/2024 at 1:48 PM, Hschwartz said:

There are so many gray areas here that need to be taken in context of the times and can't really ever be certain about since all of the principals have now passed on and nobody in the early sixties could possibly have guessed how important these characters would be to so many people sixty year later.

I will start by agreeing with Prince Namor and then go on to the areas I disagree with him. Keep in mind these are represented as my opinions and not in any way as facts. 

The so called Marvel Method was a real rip off to the artists. All of them deserved plotting credit and should have been paid much more than they were. Comparing a Stan lee marvel Comic to an Al Feldstein EC Comic  showcases how much more work the artist had to put in. With a Feldstein EC Comic the artist got a very detailed description on top of the panel and he just had to fill in the blanks. With a Marvel Comic the artist had to decide exactly where all the action would go and sequence the whole story in a way that made it very easy for Stan to put in the dialogue. This was a real injustice but I can't call it stealing. Stealing would be if a check was made out to Wally Wood and Stan crossed out his name and wrote Stan Lee on the check. If being underpaid and under compensated for the work provided is stealing I think half of America could say they were stolen from when you see CEO pay compared to the average worker. Another point is that Stan Lee was editor in chief and not the owner. Martin Goodman made final decisions on salary even though I'm sure Stan had a lot of influence.

I agree with Prince Namor that Stan had a lot to answer for and took way more credit than he deserved. All of these characters were co creations and Stan should have been more forthcoming particularly when the movies started and so many non comic book people were paying attention. I was particularly annoyed when he got his Hollywood Walk of Fame footprint and gave a speech without mentioning Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko at all. Without these two he would never have gotten there. Stan did better when pressed by comic book people but totally failed to give credit when he was interviewed by news people who didn't know the comic industry. 

Now my big disagreement with Prince Namor is on Stan's contribution to the comics themselves. In my opinion the best Marvel Comics ever done were Spider-Man 31-33 and Fantastic Four 48-51. Other great comics were Daredevil 7, Avengers 9, and Captain America 110, 111, and 113. These were drawn by Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Wally Wood, Don Heck, and Jim Steranko. Guess whose name is attached to all of them Stan Lee. He must be the luckiest guy in the world if he was just riding on all of these artists coat tails and wasn't a crucial element of their success. Many people have extolled the writing abilities of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko but not so much the other three mentioned. I also love Daredevil 1-20 which was helmed by four different artists but I loved the stories in all of them. This is why I think Stan was the most important person in Marvel's success in the sixties. He humanized the characters in a way that Kirby and Ditko couldn't and in my opinion that made all of the difference.

I have read all of the fourth world Kirby DC Comics and The Question, Blue Beetle, Creeper and Hawk and Dove by Ditko. These were all perfectly acceptable comics but they never moved me the way the Stan Lee Marvel characters did. Again this is just my opinion. Many people think the New Gods were better than the Marvel books and they should express it but I just don't agree. 

My biggest point is that I'm able to separate Stan lee the man from Stan lee the writer. He was a big disappointment in some ways as a person but still an incredible writer whose stories will last for quite a while.

This is exactly the type of balanced, nuanced perspective I think people expect from an "informed" perspective. 

I think you and @Bookery should write a book on Stan Lee. 

I have to agree. Nothing quite sounds like Marvel without Stan Lee's spin on it. 

As a kid, growing up I used to think all of these artists and creators were sitting in plush chairs with large offices. The reality is that it was probably a chaotic, dumpy work environment (when they were actually together, which obviously wasn't often) and there was a lot of overlap in everyone just manically hustling to get the job done for the presses the way it may be portrayed in a bad movie. 

In situations like that, especially in a struggling company with a cheap owner, where individual roles were obviously not clearly defined and it was the norm for creators not to receive public credit, surgically identifying roles, or better put recognition is going to be nearly impossible to do. 

This brings to mind a question on what Stan Lee's agreement with Goodman was. How was he paid and what exactly was he paid for?

On 9/18/2024 at 11:32 AM, Prince Namor said:

It's mostly a diversion tactic. Lee fans don't want his faults discussed, so they always try to steer the conversation elsewhere.

Trust me. You DON'T. I touch on it in one of my essays, "What did Stan Lee actually do?"

Over the year's his 'Bullpen" - in particular Romita and Marie Severin (and even Roy Thomas) would occasionally let slip or outright expose inside information of the real workings of the Marvel offices. (Remember: Marie was the one who said Funky Flashman didn't 'go as far as it could have'.) That's why I just had to chuckle at Roy's idealized version of Lee motivating and running a tight ship. 

As one of the less juicy examples, Thomas revealed that both he and Lee only came into the office 2 days a week (by around 1968 - Lee was only coming in 3 days a week by 1966). It's hard to motivate and run the office from home. Lee wanted Thomas there on his days IN the office, so he could dictate to him what he needed done and make small changes and have everyone running around like a chicken with their head cut off. According to those there, Lee was holed up in his office almost exclusively. Again, hard to motivate and and run the office when you're not around your people. 

So who did everything? Well, Sol Brodsky was talked about behind the scenes for years as the one who actually managed the writing/artist schedules, made sure people got paid, handled production schedules... HE did all those things that people somehow had the idea Lee did. Brodsky had been doing it the whole decade. As more interviews came out in the 90's and 2000's and especially after he passed away - so much was revealed about the guy - even by Lee - that showed us that it was Sol who really ran the office/production side of Marvel Comics. 

How so? 

As an example, again, we know for a fact Ditko and Lee did not talk during the production of Amazing Spider-man #25-38 and. the Doctor Strange stories in Strange Tales #133-142. (Lee took away Ditko's TTA Hulk assignment when this whole 'asking for plot credit, no longer talking to him thing started) Ditko wrote those stories with ZERO input from Lee. Yet he wasn't credited as the writer and he wasn't paid as the writer. Lee was. 

He stole that credit by claiming it for himself. He stole the pay for it by falsely claiming it for himself. 

Yeah... I'm not giving Lee a pass on what others have done. 

Gower's post above makes it sound like Stan Lee "ran the office from home" lounging around in pajamas and stealing pay, but we also know Stan Lee was a public figure who never met a camera he didn't like, so how much of his time was spend working out of the office?

What were Stan Lee's obligations outside of actually working on comics?

This is sort of well balanced perspective on what Stan Lee did right that I think a lot of interested readers are looking for rather than just a condemnation of all the things he did wrong. 

Edited yesterday at 07:46 PM by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 9/18/2024 at 3:39 PM, Mmehdy said:

there is no way he is writing a bunch of books and going to all those colleges and promo trips.

Ah, so he didn't just "run the office from home" while everyone else was working? 

[jimjum12]

On 9/18/2024 at 3:07 PM, Hschwartz said:

I just got them out and they are all vague on who does what. lee's name is on all of them but we know that is under dispute on who did what. Here's the dramatic dialogue in 113  that to me is Stan lee's writing "A man can be destroyed! A team or an army can be destroyed.  But how can you destroy an ideal- A dream? How do you destroy a living symbol--or  his indomitable will--his unquenchable spirit? Some people will surely call this corny but I think it's great dramatic writing capturing the essence of what Captain America is supposed to stand for. Do I know for sure that Lee dialogued it and not Steranko? No I don't but based on the comics that went before I feel it is more likely Lee's words.

Corny was Lee's keynote in many ways, and one of the ways he was able to help us laugh WITH each other and at ourselves. Kirby and Ditko, both, were dripping melodrama and self importance in their writing styles, each definitely with something to say, but definitely not in the direction of that warm and fuzzy, island of self-confidence that Lee took us to. I liked the pictures, but seeing someone punched through a brick wall, issue after issue, was not the pinnacle of what was 1960's Marvel. To me  Nothing will diminish that, certainly not some butthurt over an artist negotiating a poor contract for his self, and towards the end, Kirby was knocking down over 3 times the median income. Still, Kirby was my first Idol Artist, followed shortly by Adams. But I was always a reader, going so far as to actually read Dr. Seuss in my pre comics days. GOD BLESS ... 

-jiimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited 23 hours ago by jimjum12

[jimjum12]

On 9/18/2024 at 3:41 PM, VintageComics said:

Ah, so he didn't just "run the office from home" while everyone else was working? 

And please, for the sake of God, don't mention that the speaking engagements began at least 5 years after the Marvel Age Of Comics began. GOD BLESS ...

-jiimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Mmehdy]

On 9/18/2024 at 12:41 PM, VintageComics said:

Ah, so he didn't just "run the office from home" while everyone else was working? 

unless he lied about the number of colleges he went to......LOL...one quote was like 150 in year...more...LOL

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

In view of recent posts discussing the good and bad of Stan and the gray areas........this interview is just full of irony.....

 

[jimjum12]

On 9/18/2024 at 4:01 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

In view of recent posts discussing the good and bad of Stan and the gray areas........this interview is just full of irony.....

 

I notice he uses the word "we" quite a bit. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2024 at 2:07 AM, Hschwartz said:

I just got them out and they are all vague on who does what. lee's name is on all of them but we know that is under dispute on who did what. Here's the dramatic dialogue in 113  that to me is Stan lee's writing "A man can be destroyed! A team or an army can be destroyed.  But how can you destroy an ideal- A dream? How do you destroy a living symbol--or  his indomitable will--his unquenchable spirit? Some people will surely call this corny but I think it's great dramatic writing capturing the essence of what Captain America is supposed to stand for. Do I know for sure that Lee dialogued it and not Steranko? No I don't but based on the comics that went before I feel it is more likely Lee's words.

It's pretty amazing you chose the issues you did...

Lee wasn't talking to Ditko when ASM #31-33 came out. It's a FACT, based on all who were there - including Lee - that Ditko wrote the story and did the art and Lee added the dialogue.

Based on what all have said, Lee simply said, "What if the FF battled God?" and Kirby went from there. Kirby denies he even told him that, but for the sake of this we'll give him that much of the benefit of the doubt. Lee had no idea who the Silver Surfer was when Kirby turned the artwork in and has gone on record as saying so. So again, Lee didn't write the story.

Wally Wood leaving Marvel was based upon: 

I enjoyed working with Stan [Lee] on Daredevil but for one thing. I had to make up the whole story. He was being paid for writing, and I was being paid for drawing, but he didn't have any ideas. I'd go in for a plotting session, and we'd just stare at each other until I came up with a storyline. I felt like I was writing the book but not being paid for writing.”

- Wally Wood from Mark Evanier’s interview with Wallace Wood, posted to Kirby-L, the Jack Kirby Internet mailing list, 5 July 1997, later published in The Life and Legend of Wallace Wood Volume 1, edited by Bhob Stewart and Michael Catron, Fantagraphics, 2016.

So again, Lee didn't write Daredevil #7.

Steranko consistantly has said, HE wrote all the books he did at Marvel (including those Cap issues) and Lee wasn't supposed to change any of the dialogue, but DID. Which is part of the reason he ended up leaving.

What you did here is chose specifically FOUR storylines/comics that he have actual proof of that Lee did NOT write.... 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:48 AM, Hschwartz said:

With a Marvel Comic the artist had to decide exactly where all the action would go and sequence the whole story in a way that made it very easy for Stan to put in the dialogue. This was a real injustice but I can't call it stealing. Stealing would be if a check was made out to Wally Wood and Stan crossed out his name and wrote Stan Lee on the check. If being underpaid and under compensated for the work provided is stealing I think half of America could say they were stolen from when you see CEO pay compared to the average worker. 

If you turn in a time card for someone else's work, that's called stealing. That's what Lee esssentially was doing.

On 9/19/2024 at 12:48 AM, Hschwartz said:

I agree with Prince Namor that Stan had a lot to answer for and took way more credit than he deserved. All of these characters were co creations and Stan should have been more forthcoming particularly when the movies started and so many non comic book people were paying attention. I was particularly annoyed when he got his Hollywood Walk of Fame footprint and gave a speech without mentioning Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko at all. Without these two he would never have gotten there. Stan did better when pressed by comic book people but totally failed to give credit when he was interviewed by news people who didn't know the comic industry. 

For the last 20 years of his life, including under oath, he said that he created all of the concepts, and simply assigned an artist. 

On 9/19/2024 at 12:48 AM, Hschwartz said:

I have read all of the fourth world Kirby DC Comics and The Question, Blue Beetle, Creeper and Hawk and Dove by Ditko. These were all perfectly acceptable comics but they never moved me the way the Stan Lee Marvel characters did. Again this is just my opinion. Many people think the New Gods were better than the Marvel books and they should express it but I just don't agree.

What of Lee's work after Kirby left did you enjoy?

On 9/19/2024 at 12:48 AM, Hschwartz said:

My biggest point is that I'm able to separate Stan lee the man from Stan lee the writer. He was a big disappointment in some ways as a person but still an incredible writer whose stories will last for quite a while.

And you should. As I stated before, John Lennon was NOT a perfect human being, but it's easy to separate the man from the song's he wrote.

Of course... he actually wrote the songs he wrote. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:34 AM, JC25427N said:

But you have the truth already, and apparently you've known the truth for a long time, so haven't you already gotten what you want? If you didn't care about impacting anyone else then why care enough to publish a book about it and post about it on these boards so eagerly? You must want to effect some change somewhere to some people. There must be something more you want that made you take up the spear and join "the front-lines of correcting the history of Comics in America". If this isn't to impact people or effect some change, Is this for some sort of glory or prestige? 

Such prestige let me tell ya. 

[Hschwartz]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. That's why I said these are my opinions and not facts. I love Steve Ditko and corresponded with him but after leaving Marvel he never wrote anything with the humanity of Spider-Man 31-33. He fleshed out the story in a way that was fantastic and certainly deserves all the credit for plotting the story but I don't think he wrote the incredible dialogue. The same goes for Jack Kirby after he left the Fantastic Four. None of his 4th world characters resonated with me the same way so I give the dialogue credit to Stan lee in making these characters so memorable. Do I know for sure who did what? No I don't and people can make up their own minds. 

Again I don't know for sure but if I remember correctly Wally Wood tried to take credit for writing the classic My World Story for EC Comics. Al Feldstein didn't take kindly to that since he said he wrote the dialogue. Again I will say for the final time these are opinions and not facts. None of us can say for sure what really happened.

[Ken Aldred]

On 9/18/2024 at 9:34 PM, Hschwartz said:

Again I don't know for sure but if I remember correctly Wally Wood tried to take credit for writing the classic My World Story for EC Comics. Al Feldstein didn't take kindly to that since he said he wrote the dialogue. Again I will say for the final time these are opinions and not facts. None of us can say for sure what really happened.

Didn’t know that.  The way the story is written in first person makes it sound like Wood wrote it, but as far as I knew, despite that, it was always credited to Feldstein.

Edited 23 hours ago by Ken Aldred

[Hschwartz]

That's true Ken but later on I think I read in a fanzine that Feldstein was upset that Wood didn't give him credit for writing the dialogue when talking about the story. This was fifty years ago so I could have it wrong. The point I was trying to make was that in my opinion Stan lee wrote the dialogue for Daredevil 7 again based on Wally Wood comics I have read where the dialogue just doesn't match up to the empathy and writing style of Stan Lee. However since we weren't there nobody can say for sure.