Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[Dick Pontoon]

[comicwiz]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:09 PM, VintageComics said:

Would he still be King if his body of work was much smaller but had more attention to detail?

I'm going to answer your question with a question - have you have ever drawn anything competently? Not a trick question, and I'll respond to yours, but just would like to understand your own experiences with freehand drawing before I expound on my opinion.

[Zonker]

On 9/19/2024 at 12:58 AM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

 

Kirby ain't all that. Give me the quirkiness of Wolverton, Matt Fox and the purity of Wood any day of the week. Worlds of difference. But hey art is subjective I get it, but Kirby?

Don't think so...sorry Kirby zombies but no.  

Comparing Kirby to Wally Wood is apples to artichokes.  Kirby is a cartoonist, communicating as much as possible with as few lines as possible, whereas Wood is an illustrator, trying to accurately capture on paper the world around us.  There have been both types of artists successful in the comics-- probably going all the way back to the comics strip work of Milton Caniff (cartoonist) versus Hal Foster (illustrator).  

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/19/2024 at 6:27 PM, Zonker said:

Comparing Kirby to Wally Wood is apples to artichokes.  Kirby is a cartoonist, communicating as much as possible with as few lines as possible, whereas Wood is an illustrator, trying to accurately capture on paper the world around us.  There have been both types of artists successful in the comics-- probably going all the way back to the comics strip work of Milton Caniff (cartoonist) versus Hal Foster (illustrator).  

I'm just saying I prefer one artist's art to another....of course you can compare it.

[Mmehdy]

On 9/19/2024 at 9:09 AM, VintageComics said:

Frankly, because of Kirby's lack of realism in his Silver Age work I never liked it growing up, and this is probably because I was exposed to him when he was pumping volume.

His earlier work before Marvel seemed better, but again, not a huge fan of his blockiness in general. 

Ironically, Miller went from realism to blockiness and it didn't bother me as much, probably because I was hooked in Miller's earlier stuff before I was exposed to his later stuff, so I already had an emotional attachment to Miller. 

I can see the appeal of Kirby in his sequential story telling, but I still don't like the way he draws figures (and particularly women). 

Would he still be King if his body of work was much smaller but had more attention to detail?

He was an excellent artist and WRITER...you could just count his timely/marvel output and call it quits and still call him the King...but, historically its his work with so many different titles...his romance titles both including marvel show his versatility. Here is a great example of a different type of Kirby at marvel.

 check this out VC!

The" Complete  Kirby War and Romance" Omnibus for Marvel: It is fantastic!, I own it and have read it twice. Originally priced at $125...they are giving it away at Amazon for $77 with free shipping. 592 insane pages of great stuff...which is impossible to come by. Please see my Amazon verified purchaser review of the book.

VC he is the King because he could do it ALL.and that was with just one of the many company's he worked for ..and to do it all you have to have volume......

VC give it a buy try!

Edited 3 hours ago by Mmehdy

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/18/2024 at 7:14 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

 

 

I gotta say....you have the strangest and most unique approach to PR and goodwill from a potential author that I have ever seen.  

 

I think it's cool that we're all talking and engaging (to varying degrees) and we're 23+ pages in. This is a great thread with great discussion. Some heated, some not - it's something we don't get a lot of around here like the olden days. 

[Mmehdy]

On 9/19/2024 at 11:04 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I think it's cool that we're all talking and engaging (to varying degrees) and we're 23+ pages in. This is a great thread with great discussion. Some heated, some not - it's something we don't get a lot of around here like the olden days. 

Second that....one of the best theads of the year

[comicwiz]

On 9/19/2024 at 1:40 PM, Mmehdy said:

On 9/19/2024 at 12:09 PM, VintageComics said:

Frankly, because of Kirby's lack of realism in his Silver Age work I never liked it growing up, and this is probably because I was exposed to him when he was pumping volume.

His earlier work before Marvel seemed better, but again, not a huge fan of his blockiness in general. 

Ironically, Miller went from realism to blockiness and it didn't bother me as much, probably because I was hooked in Miller's earlier stuff before I was exposed to his later stuff, so I already had an emotional attachment to Miller. 

I can see the appeal of Kirby in his sequential story telling, but I still don't like the way he draws figures (and particularly women). 

Would he still be King if his body of work was much smaller but had more attention to detail?

He was an excellent artist and WRITER...you could just count his timely/marvel output and call it quits and still call him the King...but, historically its his work with so many different titles...his romance titles both including marvel show his versatility. Here is a great example of a different type of Kirby at marvel.

 check this out VC!

The" Complete  Kirby War and Romance" Omnibus for Marvel: It is fantastic!, I own it and have read it twice. Originally priced at $125...they are giving it away at Amazon for $77 with free shipping. 592 insane pages of great stuff...which is impossible to come by. Please see my Amazon verified purchaser review of the book.

VC he is the King because he could do it ALL.and that was with just one of the many company's he worked for ..and to do it all you have to have volume......

VC give it a buy try!

I'll check that out, thanks for the suggestion!

I've got a busy few days with limited time, so I'll share my views on Kirby ahead of @VintageComics answer to my question to him above.

My earliest memories of comics were tied to drawings my older brother did. He drew a Captain America which I remember being one of Kirbys iconic renderings. It was good, but even at that young an age, I knew after a quick glance at the panel in the comic and his drawing that it wasn't perfect. He hadn't captured the essence of Kirby. Imagine being in kindergarten, and being critical of your older brothers drawing, who was 5 years older than you, with enough of an age gap to make you consider choosing your words wisely if you're going to egg on his art. I guess that artistic gene carried over to me, but I would remain self-taught because of circumstances. My kindergarten teacher called my parents in one day, and when I met them outside, they were worried I'd caused some trouble, and I had no idea why they were called in, but I would later find out it was to tell them she saw potential in my drawing abilities. From that day on, my Dad did everything to discourage me from pursuing art as a career, often citing the "starving artist" lifestyles many master artists had to endure, only to see their works pick up in value after they died.

I freehand drew because I enjoyed it. Comics were my reference material growing-up, and if staring at comic panels for long moments was nerdy, you should see me do it as an adult studying the line art from my OA collection. The elegant line flow, and visual storytelling were always something that impressed me most about the work comic artists did. I did paint as well, but colouring wasn't really something I enjoyed, illustration art was what I truly loved. Even as a self-taught artist, I knew how to ascertain the way lines could be arranged for dynamic action in the artwork, composition and subject matter. In my final year of high school, I pursued motion in art, largely influenced by sports but also Kirby's work, and was offered a scholarship at the OCA (now OCAD), but that was something my Dad would not allow. 

Despite this, I didn't need an education to see it in Kirby's work, it exudes it. I'm also not deluded to know my Dad was right all along, and if I gave some pushback in the fine art realm as a young boy you'd find in the art section of the library reading books bigger than me, learning about all the hang-ups with the comic publishing industry as an adult collector sure clinched it. I would never have been able handle any work for hire arrangement simply because my pace would not have allowed me to make enough from the page rate to make it economically viable to pursue as a career. Later as an adult collector and having done several recreations as commissions, I began to really understand the way lines moved from the time they were pencilled, to being inked, and coloured, and the idea my work would be altered in a way that might impact the aethestic I was trying to achieve would have certainly frustrated me if I pursued a career as a cartoonist, and that the process would be very difficult for me to handle as well, knowing the collaborations required to take a pencilled work and produce a finished production page for publishing.

When I began to really learn about Kirby's output, speed and pace, it hit me like a ton of bricks moment. The closest I had ever come to even remotely recognizing how impressive this feat was, would be through athletic pursuits in hockey. I had learned the importance of land training at a time when it wasn't really something incorporated into the development system, and was always relegated to being ancillary. When I arrived at a physical ability to actually see the game slow around me, it was a feeling hard to describe. It felt mythical, like I'd discovered something that if I continued, would give me that advantage, and a success I'd long worked hard toward attaining. Quickly realizing that it required a dedicated approach to continuing the hard work and activities which got me to that point if I wanted to maintain or even exceed that competitive edge into the future.

What Kirby did in terms of his artistic style, his consistent quality, and his unrivaled pace was truly extraordinary. Those fixating on the unique style (in your post, referencing lacking an attention to detail) are missing the real mastery in his execution, and that it was his ability to maintain such visual storytelling mastery and action even at that frantic and impossible to replicate pace. It's what seperates him from the rest. Even as some nobody who played at a semi-pro level, I was intoxicated by that feeling of trying to make the game slow down around me. Imagine the advtantages of seeing over 100 mile an hour puck slowed to my movement and play as a goalie, and never wanting to let that advantage slip. So you train 7 days a week, run 1.5 hrs each day, train for 2 hrs in a gym each day, and spend 6 days on the ice, and your day off day you're on roller blades. I won't bore you with the meal and training prep going on each day for the next. While I had raw artistic talent, even if I had pursued an education, and dedicated training rivaling the time I put into hockey, I could never arrive at the output Kirby did, at least not without compromising artistic style, consistency and quality. But what my instincts tell me is he needed to keep that pace to maintain that mastery, and that not only defined who he was, but if he felt anything like I did in my sports experiences, that feeling of being so ahead of everyone else, I'm almost certain, was only energized by the realization all that output would allow his mind-boggling body of work to endure well past his lifetime. 

That's why he's the King. 

[jimjum12]

On 9/19/2024 at 1:40 PM, Mmehdy said:

He was an excellent artist and WRITER...you could just count his timely/marvel output and call it quits and still call him the King...but, historically its his work with so many different titles...his romance titles both including marvel show his versatility. Here is a great example of a different type of Kirby at marvel.

 check this out VC!

The" Complete  Kirby War and Romance" Omnibus for Marvel: It is fantastic!, I own it and have read it twice. Originally priced at $125...they are giving it away at Amazon for $77 with free shipping. 592 insane pages of great stuff...which is impossible to come by. Please see my Amazon verified purchaser review of the book.

VC he is the King because he could do it ALL.and that was with just one of the many company's he worked for ..and to do it all you have to have volume......

VC give it a buy try!

 Simon did most of the writing, inking, and lettering in the GA. In fact, it was Kirby who suggested the "Marvel Way" to Stan, based on his process with Joe, as a way to speed up his own production ( and remuneration). GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 9/19/2024 at 2:18 PM, Mmehdy said:

On 9/19/2024 at 2:04 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I think it's cool that we're all talking and engaging (to varying degrees) and we're 23+ pages in. This is a great thread with great discussion. Some heated, some not - it's something we don't get a lot of around here like the olden days. 

Second that....one of the best theads of the year

It's definitely not political, yet. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

As passionate a discussion as those "Could Thing whup Hulk" debates in the back of the school bus.

[Mmehdy]

On 9/19/2024 at 11:33 AM, jimjum12 said:

 Simon did most of the writing, inking, and lettering in the GA. In fact, it was Kirby who suggested the "Marvel Way" to Stan, based on his process with Joe, as a way to speed up his own production ( and remuneration). GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Simon was no where to be found on the Marvel War and Romance, I agree on Foxhole and Young Romance.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/18/2024 at 9:01 PM, Lazyboy said:

On 9/18/2024 at 4:18 PM, VintageComics said:

why did Action #1 sell 1 Million copies when Kirby wasn't there?

That one is really easy. It didn't. It wasn't even close.

https://comicbookhunter.blogspot.com/2015/04/action-comics-1-sales-figures-and-more.html

Edited 1 hour ago by RockMyAmadeus