Heritage Auction and Restored GA comics

[Silver Surfer]

These GA books with "small amounts of glue" on them, wouldn't it be worthwhile to have a professional look at possibly removing it from the books? Might make a $500 PLOD into a $2,000 blue label.

[Harvey Dude]

I agree. Whenever I hear people talking about collectors accepting restored books,

it makes me think that, besides being wishful thinking,

some of these people might have a lot of restored books they want to move.

 

I can’t speak for others but this statement does not apply to me. I actually seek out restored

books that are priced reasonably because I want to own the book and not for any future

desire to “move the book.” I have been stuck with several restored comics that I bought as

unrestored and that really ticks me off but when I know a book is restored, I have no reservations

against purchasing the comic, provided I want it for my collection. Of course, I would not pay

the unrestored grade price for any restored book. I agree with FFB’s logic. I pay no more

than the cost of the book pre-restoration plus the cost of restoration fees. Here is an example

of the books that I seek out.

 

[Aman619]

well, I can sure understand the appeal of a young blond boy in tights!!! restored or not!

Id sure make an exception for that little buck too!!

 

[Harvey Dude]

! I really liked the heart on his chest. Not quite the super-hero stereotype.

[comicdonna]

These GA books with "small amounts of glue" on them, wouldn't it be worthwhile to have a professional look at possibly removing it from the books? Might make a $500 PLOD into a $2,000 blue label.

That might of been an option, but when I recieved the book, I didn't notice the glue, and I was paying close attention to the spine for deterioration, which is common with the early actions. After I recieved it back from CGC I was disappointed, and ended up selling it and take the loss.

[LearnedHand]

Hi Jon,

 

As a long-time GA collector, my opinion is that minimally restored books have the same exact so-called stigma as extensively restored books. In absolute terms, both are restored.

 

That said, I think it's clear that a minimally restored book probably should have a higher market value than a book that has been reglossed or that has had pieces added.

 

I agree with Thegoldenage and a few others that echoed his sentiments (as I keep in touch with many other GA collectors and peruse various aution sites, including Heritage and eBay) that restored books are not at all trending upward.

 

If the Larson Detective #35 sells well in Heritage, presumably this will be a result of the rarity of this book in the marketplace (and speculation). I sincerely doubt a few examples in one auction, especially Heritage, indicate anything about trends.

 

Personally, I don't even see why people want restored books to have parity with their unrestored counterparts. And some may call it evolution, but I see it as devolution to think this is a good idea.

 

Let's look at it from the other end: regarding urestored - people pay mutliples for Mile High copies over identically graded copies. Why? Because people believe that MHs represent the absolute best state of preservation (even if another copy has the same grade). If people will pay more for an unrestored MH than another unrestored copy in identical grade due to the notional belief that one is better, then why would anyone accept the belief that it makes sense for restored, minimal or otherwise, to have parity with unrestored? The distinction between restored and unrestored is so much greater than the distinction (if there even is one) between an unrestored MH and a no-name identically graded unrestored book.

 

In the context of vintage automobiles, an all-original low miles mint example (with matching numbers) will always sell for much more than another identical looking car that was restored from a version that had body-wrok done and that does not have matching numbers (=reproduction parts added). They are 2 different animals.

 

LH

[tth2]

I agree with everything LH said.

[FFB]

But what if the highest grade copy of a rare GA book is the Church copy, and that copy has a dot of professional quality color touch? What if it was already the highest grade copy before the color touch was unnecessarily applied? Is the book still not worth every bit as much as it was worth before the dot of color touch was applied?

 

Hi Jon,

 

As a long-time GA collector, my opinion is that minimally restored books have the same exact so-called stigma as extensively restored books. In absolute terms, both are restored.

 

That said, I think it's clear that a minimally restored book probably should have a higher market value than a book that has been reglossed or that has had pieces added.

 

I agree with Thegoldenage and a few others that echoed his sentiments (as I keep in touch with many other GA collectors and peruse various aution sites, including Heritage and eBay) that restored books are not at all trending upward.

 

If the Larson Detective #35 sells well in Heritage, presumably this will be a result of the rarity of this book in the marketplace (and speculation). I sincerely doubt a few examples in one auction, especially Heritage, indicate anything about trends.

 

Personally, I don't even see why people want restored books to have parity with their unrestored counterparts. And some may call it evolution, but I see it as devolution to think this is a good idea.

 

Let's look at it from the other end: regarding urestored - people pay mutliples for Mile High copies over identically graded copies. Why? Because people believe that MHs represent the absolute best state of preservation (even if another copy has the same grade). If people will pay more for an unrestored MH than another unrestored copy in identical grade due to the notional belief that one is better, then why would anyone accept the belief that it makes sense for restored, minimal or otherwise, to have parity with unrestored? The distinction between restored and unrestored is so much greater than the distinction (if there even is one) between an unrestored MH and a no-name identically graded unrestored book.

 

In the context of vintage automobiles, an all-original low miles mint example (with matching numbers) will always sell for much more than another identical looking car that was restored from a version that had body-wrok done and that does not have matching numbers (=reproduction parts added). They are 2 different animals.

 

LH

[tth2]

But what if the highest grade copy of a rare GA book is the Church copy, and that copy has a dot of professional quality color touch? What if it was already the highest grade copy before the color touch was unnecessarily applied? Is the book still not worth every bit as much as it was worth before the dot of color touch was applied?

No, maybe not, because perhaps the buyer would not have paid the same price if he knew the Church copy had the CT on it. And it likely would not be as valuable as a raw non-CT copy of equal grade, if one were to surface.

[FFB]

But what if the highest grade copy of a rare GA book is the Church copy, and that copy has a dot of professional quality color touch? What if it was already the highest grade copy before the color touch was unnecessarily applied? Is the book still not worth every bit as much as it was worth before the dot of color touch was applied?

No, maybe not, because perhaps the buyer would not have paid the same price if he knew the Church copy had the CT on it. And it likely would not be as valuable as a raw non-CT copy of equal grade, if one were to surface.

 

Who said anything about non-disclosure? I am sure that the person who paid $150K for the Church More Fun #52 knew that the book had a small amount of glue and color touch, just like Borock knew it had color touch and glue when he paid $115K for it before starting CGC. Do you have reason to believe (other than your own aversion to owning anything with any restoration at all) that the book would have sold for more without the minor glue and color touch?

 

As for whether an equal or higher grade unrestored copy of that book may surface, don't hold your breath.

[Aman619]

Scott, yours is an 'advanced' and enlightened viewpoint on very slight resto (that I admit I am more open to than I was before our discussion about the Church Supe 1 now that the resto is gone) but, not everyone is aboard and seated on that train yet. I am SURE that the MF52 would have sold for more without the 'taint' it has carried as one of the 'fallen' Church keys. I cant prove it of course, but if it were in circulation for the past 25 years as a totally pristine untouched copy? I Definitely believe it would sell for more.

[lou_fine]

As a long-time GA collector, my opinion is that minimally restored books have the same exact so-called stigma as extensively restored books. In absolute terms, both are restored.

 

That said, I think it's clear that a minimally restored book probably should have a higher market value than a book that has been reglossed or that has had pieces added.

 

Personally, I don't even see why people want restored books to have parity with their unrestored counterparts. And some may call it evolution, but I see it as devolution to think this is a good idea.

 

LH

 

LH;

 

I don't believe anybody here is stating that restored books should be selling for the same price as unrestored books in the same condition. This would be totally absurd and makes absolutely no sense at all from either an artistic or financial point of view.

 

I believe the point that was being made by Jon is very similar to your earlier point. Namely, that books with slight professional resto should be treated with a lot less disdain in the marketplace as compared to a franken book with all sorts of extensive resto on it.

 

In the first few years of CGC, the marketplace took the simple view that a restored book was a restored book, no matter whether it was slight pro or extensive amateur. They just saw the purple CGC label and applied the same senseless discount to all of the PLOD's. I think Jon is just saying that the marketplace APPEARS to be a little more sophisicated now and STARTING to look beyond the colour of the label and to differentiate between the various levels of resto.

 

Lou

[FFB]

Scott, yours is an 'advanced' and enlightened viewpoint on very slight resto (that I admit I am more open to than I was before our discussion about the Church Supe 1 now that the resto is gone) but, not everyone is aboard and seated on that train yet. I am SURE that the MF52 would have sold for more without the 'taint' it has carried as one of the 'fallen' Church keys. I cant prove it of course, but if it were in circulation for the past 25 years as a totally pristine untouched copy? I Definitely believe it would sell for more.

 

Yeah, maybe, but Borock said that when he paid $115K for it, he didn't care at all about the CT and glue because there was so little of it and because it was the best existing copy.

[jkrk]

believe the point that was being made by Jon is very similar to your earlier point. Namely, that books with slight professional resto should be treated with a lot less disdain in the marketplace as compared to a franken book with all sorts of extensive resto on it.

 

 

If Jon's point was that slight pro restoration deserves a higher selling price (less disdain) than a Hardcore restored books then we should end this thread now. I fear that no one would take the other side of the trade. At this point I know I am a bit confused. Perhaps, If I can relate this post to an arbitrary pricing system I would understand the point better. Let's assume that less disdain means a higher selling price. Let's forget about the few copies of Action 1. DEt 1, Marvel Comics 1, etc.

If an unrestored Cap 8 in CGC 9.2 sells for $10,000 then what % of guide does a slightly restored , mod rest, and ext restored sell for? Obviously, there are other factors such as the type and amt of restoration within the categories, the page color, the overall look after the restoration was done, rarity of the issue, etc.

 

As a guide My answer would generally be that I would pay.....

 

$3,000 slight rest

$2,000 moderate rest

$1,500 extensive rest

 

Are my estimate reasonable?

 

Is the market paying a higher % than two years ago for slight rest?

 

Any thoughts?

[LearnedHand]

Actually, Jon was asking for peoples' opinion on how they perceive restored books. An element is price resistence, but another element is acceptance as a viable alternative to unrestored. As you state, no one disagrees over the price aspect. A sliding scale has always been in effect, perhaps it is now seeing normalization. It's something else, however, to presume that there is greater market acceptance of restored books simply because of a normalization over prices relative to degree of work.

[LearnedHand]

But what if the highest grade copy of a rare GA book is the Church copy, and that copy has a dot of professional quality color touch? What if it was already the highest grade copy before the color touch was unnecessarily applied? Is the book still not worth every bit as much as it was worth before the dot of color touch was applied?

 

Tim,

 

I know what you’re saying, and you raise some very valid queries. I think the answers will be wildly diverse based on perspective. And I believe there is no right answer. I can only speak from my own perspective.

 

Before we get to my perspective, however, let’s qualify what we’re discussing (for my benefit). I don’t think we’re talking about “a dot” of professionally applied CT. Presumably, if it warranted a purple label, this means that the book has more than one dot (but perhaps very few) and they were applied in a way that, if removed, will be detrimental to the book (CGC has often told me that with very slight CT, the presumed affects of the removal often dictate whether the book receives a blue or purple label).

 

An example is the MH Adventure #40. It has very slight CT, but from what I understand, if the dots are removed, the grade will drop significantly because of CT location. Moreover, I understand that the dots bleed through the front cover, meaning they’ve pervaded the cover stock. In cases like this, one could argue that the book is the nicest known copy, irrespective of the dots of CT and that its value should remain unaffected by the minor CT. Or one could say that this book is the highest graded copy only because of the CT, and that this would not be the case otherwise. If the latter, one cannot “know” what the book would grade with the CT removed, thus, can anyone say with certainty that the book should be worth every bit as much as it without the CT? Or that it should even be worth as much as an unrestored VF for that matter? I know in the case of the Adventure #40 no copy has surfaced that rivals the MH’s apparent grade yet, but my point is general, and not about this specific book.

 

My perspective:

 

First - before someone starts shelling out thousands upon thousands of dollars to own expensive comic books, the person really needs to answer this fundamental question: “am I looking at my purchases as a hobby or as an investment?” Due to the prices on GA today, even hobbyists will probably say, “a little of both.” From a collector perspective, unless you are extravagantly rich, the primary consideration for purchasing books that carry price tags over X dollars (perhaps $10,00 for me) must be – is it a good investment?

 

Comic books have proven to be a good investment, but as with any other investment, there are no guarantees. And with restored books, you add an element of risk, or a wild card, as prices on restored books have behaved much more erratically than their unrestored counterparts over the last 15 years or more. Personally, tying up $10K in one book would mean the book has a high likelihood of being a good investment, meaning it has prospective relative liquidity and indicia of return predictability. Restored books do not fall in this category, at least for me.

 

Please don’t misunderstand, if I could purchase the Larson Detective #35 at (say) Guide Good, I would, of course, jump on it. Anything at the right price is worth owning. Price obviously mitigates risk exposure.

 

Next – whether or not a nicer copy than the MH More Fun Comics #52 ever comes along means nothing to me. It’s true that I am a high grade collector, but I don’t purchase books to have bragging rights about owning the best, especially if making the claim has a footnote associated with it. I buy high grade books because of aesthetics. Comic books are all about artwork and stories. The cover usually represents the most important single piece of a book’s artwork, and an unmarred cover image serves a key component to my collecting interests.

 

Finally - In order for me to be considering a purchase from a purely hobbyist perspective (and without a cognizant eye toward the investment aspect), the book needs to be in the “under $5,000” category. And from this (hobbyist) perspective (and with the caveat from two paragraphs above), the question for me isn’t “how much is it worth with/without the dots of color touch.” Instead I ask myself “what book will make me happy/fit in with my collection.” After all, if purchasing as hobbyist, I am purchasing for reasons other than money, thus, the “how much is it worth” aspect should be a distant consideration, not the trump card.

 

I also use a test that an old-time dealer has told me on many occasions to use – a simple comparison: in ascending grade order (Good, then VG, etc.) at what grade would I prefer the unrestored copy over the restored book? Using this comparison, I can honestly say that I would prefer a presentable Fine Detective Comics #35 to the Larson copy. Why? Because that’s what makes me happy. I have a 99% unrestored collection of GA and there is no contest to me between paying $10,000 for a PLOD copy with work that cannot be removed and buying a nice, presentable unrestored Fine for probably about 55-70% of that price. Of course, there are exceptions, such as books that are so incredible rare that a slightly restored copy would be better than no copy. Again, this is just my perspective.

[batman_fan]

Great post and definitely food for thought!

 

I think the current Heritage Auction will be a good gauge of where the restored market is at given the Action 1, Superman 1, Detectives 27, 28, 29, 31, 33, 38, etc. A lot of books ranging from slight to extensive.

[FFB]

believe the point that was being made by Jon is very similar to your earlier point. Namely, that books with slight professional resto should be treated with a lot less disdain in the marketplace as compared to a franken book with all sorts of extensive resto on it.

 

 

If Jon's point was that slight pro restoration deserves a higher selling price (less disdain) than a Hardcore restored books then we should end this thread now. I fear that no one would take the other side of the trade. At this point I know I am a bit confused. Perhaps, If I can relate this post to an arbitrary pricing system I would understand the point better. Let's assume that less disdain means a higher selling price. Let's forget about the few copies of Action 1. DEt 1, Marvel Comics 1, etc.

If an unrestored Cap 8 in CGC 9.2 sells for $10,000 then what % of guide does a slightly restored , mod rest, and ext restored sell for? Obviously, there are other factors such as the type and amt of restoration within the categories, the page color, the overall look after the restoration was done, rarity of the issue, etc.

 

As a guide My answer would generally be that I would pay.....

 

$3,000 slight rest

$2,000 moderate rest

$1,500 extensive rest

 

Are my estimate reasonable?

 

Is the market paying a higher % than two years ago for slight rest?

 

Any thoughts?

 

I don't believe in using percentages of unrestored guide/unrestored FMV as a gauge for determining restored book values, but interestingly, when I look at what unrestored copies of Cap 8 sell for in lower grades and add in the expected cost of restoration services to get the book up to apparent CGC 9.2, I'd wind up just a little higher than the numbers you have here for this particular book. This assumes that the slight (P) copy started at around 8.0 condition, the moderate (P) copy started at around 6.0 condition, and the extensive (P) copy started at around 2.0 condition. The 8.0 copy would have started out at a value of around $3K and would take around $500 worth of restoration (if just CT and a clean/press is needed) to get to apparent 9.2. The 6.0 would have started out at a value of around $1500 and would take around $800 worth of restoration to get to apparent 9.2. A 2.0 copy would be worth around $400 and would take about $1500 worth of restoration to get to around an apparent 9.2. Using my proposed system, the restored values would be:

 

Slight (P): $3500

Moderate (P): $2300

Extensive (P): $1900

 

Part of this equation needs to take into account the difficulty of getting a lower grade book to grade out at a high level such as 9.2 after the restoration. It is extremely difficult for a restoration professional to perform work at a level that will result in a 2.0 (or even a 6.0) getting an apparent 9.2 grade. This is where my proposed "bump" of 10-20% comes in to recognize the "value added" from a supremely competent restoration job. On a relatively low dollar book like Cap 8, the bump may not be justified. On an Action #1, where the spreads even among restored values leave a bit more leeway, the bump might be appropriate.

[jbcomicbox]

believe the point that was being made by Jon is very similar to your earlier point. Namely, that books with slight professional resto should be treated with a lot less disdain in the marketplace as compared to a franken book with all sorts of extensive resto on it.

 

 

If Jon's point was that slight pro restoration deserves a higher selling price (less disdain) than a Hardcore restored books then we should end this thread now.

 

 

That was exactly my point. Feel free to end the thread. Jon

[Forbush-Man]

believe the point that was being made by Jon is very similar to your earlier point. Namely, that books with slight professional resto should be treated with a lot less disdain in the marketplace as compared to a franken book with all sorts of extensive resto on it.

 

 

If Jon's point was that slight pro restoration deserves a higher selling price (less disdain) than a Hardcore restored books then we should end this thread now.

 

 

That was exactly my point. Feel free to end the thread. Jon

 

 

Thanks, Jon!

 

Would the last person please turn the lights off when you leave?