stamps... blazing a trail for comics?

[joe_collector]

History is littered with losers and failures. For every Bill Gates, there are undoubtedly tens of thousands of failed software developers. For every John Rockefeller, there were thousands of failed, and sometimes crushed, oil men.

 

Thank you for illustrating my point.

 

Buying CGC comics for potential financial gain is an incredibly risky proposition, and for every ONE Bill Gates or Rockefeller, you will have thousands of "failed and sometimes crushed" speculators.

 

If you like those odds, and think you're one in a thousand, then by all means, open your wallet and take the plunge. Myself, I like to get better odds for my hard-earned money.

[Aman619]

JC - - I started this so let me answer. NO ONE hereis saying, nor was the article on taxes, saying that ALL collectibles will increase and be profitable. NO ONE is saying that ANY CGC slab you buy today will increase 200%. Thats what YOU are arguing,,.. again.... If you want to limit the discussion to comparing the inverted Jenny stamp they talked about to only Action 1, well good. That a fair comparison. What do you say to that?

 

Can, or will, OUR best pieces increase higher than they are now??? Would your incessant pessimism for the hobby you claim to love allow THAT comparison? Or is Action 1 doomed as well in your gloomy forecasts?

[Aman619]

...for all I know, the Jenny stamp may be the ONLY stamp that increased in value in the last decade!

[tth2]

Biut by using hindsight, you naturally look at the "lottery winners" only, and forget all about the poor sods who may have *invested* in F to VF books in the 80's and 90's, along with over-graded NM's, whose collection actually dropped in real value. And let's not even get into the speculator books people got hosed on (yes, thoise did exist in the 70's) or the resto comics.

I believed I used the term "average". There will always be individual exceptions.

 

Actually, to your point, in 1986 I picked up X-Men 2, 3 & 4, Avengers 2, 3 & 4 and GS X-Men #1, all in approximately VG to F condition. In 2001, I sold them and made money on each of them, despite the fact that each turned out to be a PLOD (except for X-Men #2). If they had not been restored, I would have made a very decent return, even factoring in time value of money.

 

Anyways, again, my point was not that money can be made in comics. My point was simply that no one knows the future, and at any given moment in time the value of anything could go up or it could go down. Sometimes you just have to grab the old cajones and take the plunge, because the alternative is to be one of the people frozen into paralysis by overanalysis, forever going on and on about woulda shoulda coulda.

[joe_collector]

If you want to limit the discussion to comparing the inverted Jenny stamp they talked about to only Action 1, well good. That a fair comparison. What do you say to that?

 

I'd agree. The Top 10 examples of any collectible is something that is tough to argue against.

 

But then again, that leaves 10 or fewer comic collectors who are holding a potential gold mine, while the rest of us are storing boxes of paper.

[adamstrange]

Biut by using hindsight, you naturally look at the "lottery winners" only, and forget all about the poor sods who may have *invested* in F to VF books in the 80's and 90's, along with over-graded NM's, whose collection actually dropped in real value. And let's not even get into the speculator books people got hosed on (yes, thoise did exist in the 70's) or the resto comics.

I believed I used the term "average". There will always be individual exceptions.

 

Actually, to your point, in 1986 I picked up X-Men 2, 3 & 4, Avengers 2, 3 & 4 and GS X-Men #1, all in approximately VG to F condition. In 2001, I sold them and made money on each of them, despite the fact that each turned out to be a PLOD (except for X-Men #2). If they had not been restored, I would have made a very decent return, even factoring in time value of money.

 

Anyways, again, my point was not that money can be made in comics. My point was simply that no one knows the future, and at any given moment in time the value of anything could go up or it could go down. Sometimes you just have to grab the old cajones and take the plunge, because the alternative is to be one of the people frozen into paralysis by overanalysis, forever going on and on about woulda shoulda coulda.

 

I would just add in addition to using the cajones, it doesn't hurt to fire up a few synapses among the little grey cells. People that sit on the sideline can get hurt -- witness the folks who's bank accounts got creamed by inflation in the 70s. The best option is to find a game you are interested in, study (I don't why but people usually try to skip this step), work up a game plan, go play, adjust game plan, and play some more.

[joe_collector]

My point was simply that no one knows the future, and at any given moment in time the value of anything could go up or it could go down.

 

I agree, but I will give you one Universal Truth for virtually any hobby:

 

When the terms INVESTMENT and COLLECTIBLE are bandied about, DO NOT buy. Sell.

 

When those terms are no longer heard, then it is time to buy and hold.

 

Follow that and you would have made a very healthy return over the years, with no exception.

[adamstrange]

My point was simply that no one knows the future, and at any given moment in time the value of anything could go up or it could go down.

 

I agree, but I will give you one Universal Truth for virtually any hobby:

 

When the terms INVESTMENT and COLLECTIBLE are bandied about, DO NOT buy. Sell.

 

When those terms are no longer heard, then it is time to buy and hold.

 

Follow that and you would have made a very healthy return over the years, with no exception.

 

Darn. I never should have read that book about comic investing back in the 80s because I have obviously lost money on all my purchases.

[Aman619]

. you done good.. REAL good!

[joe_collector]

Darn. I never should have read that book about comic investing back in the 80s because I have obviously lost money on all my purchases.

 

Did the title include the terms INVESTMENT and COLLECTIBLE?

 

If so, post a scan.

 

P.S. You don't read too well, do you? Go back and check out what I wrote, and you'll see that the big wheel speculectors in the business have done EXACTLY as I outlined.

 

Sell when INVESTMENT COLLECTIBLE becomes a buzz-word, and buy when it stops being used.

[AussieRuss]

If you want to limit the discussion to comparing the inverted Jenny stamp they talked about to only Action 1, well good. That a fair comparison. What do you say to that?

 

I'd agree. The Top 10 examples of any collectible is something that is tough to argue against.

 

But then again, that leaves 10 or fewer comic collectors who are holding a potential gold mine, while the rest of us are storing boxes of paper.

 

Here's an example.

 

Lets take my collecting habits. I like first issues. My off the rack raw books would grade at between 8.5 & 9.8

 

If I had grown up in the early-mid 60's and purchased 100 Marvel first issues, Westerns, Superheroes, Horror etc. Now lets say that I kept them in pristine condition as I do now. Would I have made a good choice??? I would say yes I would have. Initial outlay ~$20.00

 

Jump foward to the 70's. Same situation . 100 marvel first editions Giant size comics, Superheroes, etc. Initial outlay ~$50.00 Would I have made money today? I think so.

 

You can name the hundred comics, I dont care. Just remember that they should be popular War, S/hero, Horror comics from that era.

 

Russ...

[joe_collector]

But Aussie, it's not the 60's or 70's anymore, and we're talking about investment collectibles in 2005.

 

Of course I made tons on all the OA books I bought, everyone did, but we're talking about the investment logic of piling lots of $$$ into CGC comics today.

 

And there's also the potential opportunity cost of holding them too long, not selling all those OA copies now, and losing profits.

[adamstrange]

Darn. I never should have read that book about comic investing back in the 80s because I have obviously lost money on all my purchases.

 

Did the title include the terms INVESTMENT and COLLECTIBLE?

 

If so, post a scan.

 

P.S. You don't read too well, do you? Go back and check out what I wrote, and you'll see that the big wheel speculectors in the business have done EXACTLY as I outlined.

 

Sell when INVESTMENT COLLECTIBLE becomes a buzz-word, and buy when it stops being used.

 

Comic Book Collecting for Fun and Profit by Mike Benton. 1985.

 

I don't recall that they were using the term Investment Collectible back then but there have been articles on investing in any variety of collectibles starting in the 70s when I was old enough to read and notice such things.

 

Chapter 8: Making Money: Investing in Comics

 

I'm not an investor in comics, but if you are going to spend money on a hobby, it doesn't hurt to do a bit of research. (See my earlier post in this thread about the concept of "study")

 

[AussieRuss]

But Aussie, it's not the 60's or 70's anymore, and we're talking about investment collectibles in 2005.

 

Of course I made tons on all the OA books I bought, everyone did, but we're talking about the investment logic of piling lots of $$$ into CGC comics today.

 

And there's also the potential opportunity cost of holding them too long, not selling all those OA copies now, and losing profits.

 

Cheers Joe.

 

I wish I could provide an answer for you.

 

I would love to use my above example again ; purchase 100 s/hero, horror blah, blah.......

 

Unfortunatly we won' be able to look back for 20 years with a definitive answer.

 

Due to the amount of collectors today I may want to be a bit more fussy & purchase CGC 9.8 or above books but I believe history will repeat itself.

 

Then again my loss could be that I don't collect modern CGC books.

 

As these books miss out on the one thing I really want for my collection & it has nothing to do with grade. I like those little printed words located on the right hand side of the label.....

 

 

BTW have a great New Years...

 

Russ...

[joe_collector]

Unfortunatly we won' be able to look back for 20 years with a definitive answer.

 

I realize this, but I have always bought comics with some level of abandon since the early-80's, and I never once thought that these would be "worth nothing" as some like to spout.

 

In fact, it was exactly the opposite and I thought they were an incredible value and a can't-miss opportunity. I never consciously invested, but I certainly didn't worry too much about buying a few extra Byrne X-Men copies off the shelf. I also never worried about buying that 20th copy of X-Men XXX, since I felt that basically the entire BA market was severely undervalued and I enjoyed owning them.

 

But around 2002, for the FIRST time ever, I started thinking "no way that comic is worth $XXX" and I really started slowing down my buying, and concentrating on buying a few books here and there, staying far, far away from any significant expenditure. Not because they were expensive, but because I didn't feel I was getting "value for my money" as I was in the past.

 

I've learned to trust those internal warning bells, and this caused me to sell off my Valiants at the height, drop new comics entirely after X-Men #1, X-Force#1 came out, and get out of the NASDAQ about 8-10 months before it burned out, along with numerous other potentially damaging incidents that turned into windfalls.

 

I have the same feeling that current CGC comics are vastly overvalued, and I cannot in good conscience, spend my hard earned dollars with abandon. I feel I'd just be throwing my money away long-term. I still buy comics, but only at prices along the lines of a DVD, or a few drinks out with the boyz. I just don't feel confident blowing several thousand dollars on a comic in the current climate.

 

Anything I spend now is purely for the hobby and I consider it flushed. I don't even keep track of what I buy or for how much, and just have fun walking at the edge of the ocean, leaving the sharks to feed on the bloated speculators wallowing in the depths.

 

Sure, I could be wrong about this - after all there is a first time for everything.

[joe_collector]

Chapter 8: Making Money: Investing in Comics

 

Care to scan that chapter and post it? I remember reading a book similar to that, and its advice was utter BS. Totally missed the boat on older NM key first appearances, and instead advocated bulk buys of recent comics and first issues.

 

If you "researched" using that book, your closet would be full of drek.

[adamstrange]

Chapter 8: Making Money: Investing in Comics

 

Care to scan that chapter and post it? I remember reading a book similar to that, and its advice was utter BS. Totally missed the boat on older NM key first appearances, and instead advocated bulk buys of recent comics and first issues.

 

If you "researched" using that book, your closet would be full of drek.

 

I think I've posted enough books in the GA/SA forum to for folks to decide for themselves whether I have a closet of drek. Most folks that have seen the books use more positive adjectives.

 

I wouldn't begin to suggest that anyone collect/invest seriously in anything on the basis of a single book or the advice of a single person. (Note that I've not recommended that folks invest in comics -- please don't confuse me with another poster)

 

When I recommend "studying" it's what I've done and I have 6 bookcases (not shelves, bookcases) of books about artists, auction catalogs, comics history, reprints etc that I've accumulated over the years. That total doesn't include the magazines and fanzines I've accumulated. And read.

 

Regarding scanning the chapter, I'd prefer not to post as my book is the #2 signed copy and I'm geeky enough to want to keep it nice. I will point out a few highlights.

 

Mike Benton was/is quite knowledgeable about comics, as I have several of his history books that came out later. He distinguishes short-term speculation in moderns from investments and gives a brief history of how various genres and time periods have fared over time. Prime areas he recommended for investments were GA hero comics 1939-1947, EC and other 50s comics by highly selected artist, early issues of Marvel and DC titles from 1959 to 1964. Titles he recommended included Action, Adv, ASM, GL, Hulk, Avengers, Batman, Daredevil, Flash, Superman, Thor, X-men. Yes, he also discusses the importance of condition, going so far as to provide a very rudimentary set of examples about grading in a photo series in the middle of the book. To answer your specfic question as to whether he talks about the origin and key appearances: he does that in Chap 7: What Makes a Comic Valuable.

 

All in all, his advice actually remains sound and beginners would actually learn quite a bit about the realities (good and bad) even though it was written 20 years ago.

[14 of spades]

the term "investment" as it is applied today to comics is far different from the same term applied 20 years ago to comics.

 

JC is referring to the term "investment" as it is used today (at the peak of the bubble). it's his advice that "investment" today, is a practice that one should abstain from.

[goldust40]

If you want a life of guaranteed mediocrity, then move to some socialized Western European country where you'll never fall far but you'll probably never rise up very high either.

 

Err, nice generalization there, Tim. Would you mind telling me which Western European country(s) your talking about? Socialism is all but dead in Western Europe, where many of the world's wealthiest and poorest people live. Maybe your statement would've been vaguely accurate 35 years ago, but NOT NOW.

 

The opportunity to make vast amounts of wealth on the back of regular taxpayers has never been stronger in Europe's G8 countries, and as long as leaders like Blair mimic U.S. governments' attitude to the rich, then "guaranteed mediocrity for all" will be a thing of the past. Just thought I'd clear that up.

[tth2]

But Aussie, it's not the 60's or 70's anymore, and we're talking about investment collectibles in 2005.

I don`t know if you`re being obtuse just to be difficult or because you just don`t get it. It was no more clear in 1966, or 1976, or 1986, or 1996 that you wouldn`t lose your shirt by purchasing comics than it is today. There were people saying at all of those points that then-current price levels were crazy, and only in hindsight is it so clear that buying comics was such a no-brainer at those points in time. Of course, I have no written record as to what you may have been saying about prices at any of those points in time, but now we do for what you`re saying currently (or is it in fact the past 3 years), so let`s be sure to meet back here in 2016 and see where we are, okay?