Heritage Auction and Multiple Copies of the Same Book

[skybolt]

I only buy from them, but if I had put a big key book up for sale say in 8.0 and they listed another one right next to it in the auction at 8.5 I would be really pissed. I guess if they own both books outright or check with the seller first it would be alright but wow.

 

This exact scenario occurs with the All Select Comics #1 issue.

[CW]

The basis for my comparison, was it that obvious?

[skybolt]

The basis for my comparison, was it that obvious?

 

That's my favorite Timely cover. However, if I do purchase a copy in the future, I doubt if I can afford anything higher than a 6.0. I just placed a thrill bid on the 8.5 copy, but it should be overtaken fairly soon.

[FFB]

What you have identified is simply further proof that Heritage is a pure money-maker business that has little interest in the hobby itself, or even maximizing profit on a specific item. They deal in volume, volume, volume.

 

Not saying there is anything wrong with that, though certainly there is much to criticize, but that is how it is. Which is kinda sad given that at least some of those who run/work for Heritage are comic book collectors.

Actually, Heritage usually doesn't do this very much, or only with fairly wide discrepancies in grade so the target audiences for a book are presumably different, which I think is what makes the multiple copies in same or similar grade in this auction really stand out. So I think you're being a bit harsh in your judgment.

 

Previously, the books that were listed in duplicate most often were the Gaines EC books, and since many of those belong to Halperin, he's only screwing himself.

 

Actually, from Jim's standpoint I don't know if he is screwing himself or not. He is the one who has set the reserve price so presumably he doesn't care if they don't sell. If someone wishes to meet the reserve, he is happy. So he "loses" nothing, and the catalogue looks great with all these HG ECs.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

 

But you know that there ARE multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around. Didn't Gaines keep at least 12 copies of each book wrapped in paper in his closet for a couple of decades, most of which grade out between 9.4 and 9.8 now? That's an abundant supply of HG copies and perhaps enough to keep those books from realizing the same stratospheric price increases that other books do when there is only one 9.8, three 9.6s, and a couple of 9.4s.

[esquirecomics]

What you have identified is simply further proof that Heritage is a pure money-maker business that has little interest in the hobby itself, or even maximizing profit on a specific item. They deal in volume, volume, volume.

 

Not saying there is anything wrong with that, though certainly there is much to criticize, but that is how it is. Which is kinda sad given that at least some of those who run/work for Heritage are comic book collectors.

Actually, Heritage usually doesn't do this very much, or only with fairly wide discrepancies in grade so the target audiences for a book are presumably different, which I think is what makes the multiple copies in same or similar grade in this auction really stand out. So I think you're being a bit harsh in your judgment.

 

Previously, the books that were listed in duplicate most often were the Gaines EC books, and since many of those belong to Halperin, he's only screwing himself.

 

Actually, from Jim's standpoint I don't know if he is screwing himself or not. He is the one who has set the reserve price so presumably he doesn't care if they don't sell. If someone wishes to meet the reserve, he is happy. So he "loses" nothing, and the catalogue looks great with all these HG ECs.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

 

But you know that there ARE multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around. Didn't Gaines keep at least 12 copies of each book wrapped in paper in his closet for a couple of decades, most of which grade out between 9.4 and 9.8 now? That's an abundant supply of HG copies and perhaps enough to keep those books from realizing the same stratospheric price increases that other books do when there is only one 9.8, three 9.6s, and a couple of 9.4s.

 

Very true. 12 of each. Although that hasn't seemed to significantly hurt the prices on Gaines copies.

[adamstrange]

Very true. 12 of each. Although that hasn't seemed to significantly hurt the prices on Gaines copies.

 

Supply sometimes creates demand.

 

I asked Brulato whether he collected pre-hero Marvels since went after all the others. He said no because they were too hard to find.

[adamstrange]

I am not at all aware that the comic side of the business loses money. I find that somewhat hard to believe actually. Can you shed further light on this?

 

I wrote that "Heritage carried the comics division at a loss through a number of sales"

 

I assume they are profitable now and can't provide much insight as to when they hit break-even.

 

I'll respond a little bit more tomorrow on your other points.

 

Take your time.

 

It was late and I had to get up early to go on a road trip. Work is definitely interfering with comic collecting.

[adamstrange]

In any event, Heritage doesn't do anything for anyone other than itself. Jim is an owner and he can do whatever he wants, which is great. They produce great catalogues b/c it is in their best business interest to do so, not b/c they care what we think as collectors. They care from a business standpoint. They get points from me for issuing such great catalogues. They get points from me for having a great online database. But lets not mistake why they are doing it.

 

If I cited 10 other beneficial things that Heritage does for comics, you could pull out this same argument that they only do it for their business. Under your accusation how could they ever do anything to get out of your doghouse short of committing hari-kiri?

 

In any event, I'm a fan of Adam Smith's view of capitalism whereby the selfish actions of individuals based on a profit motive can result in positive social benefit.

 

If you want to smack around Heritage, by all means do so, I just thought you were over-reaching a bit based on the multiple copies issue. You do describe another issue in your post and I'll reply to that one shortly.

[adamstrange]

I only buy from them, but if I had put a big key book up for sale say in 8.0 and they listed another one right next to it in the auction at 8.5 I would be really pissed. I guess if they own both books outright or check with the seller first it would be alright but wow.

 

If you are a seller you should work with your auction consultant regarding situations like this as they have pulled books before. Heritage has in the past made statements that they won't sell 2 copies in the same grade without discussing it with the consignor but that wouldn't apply when there is a 9.0 and a 9.2. Back in my original post I commented that this could be due to laziness on the part of Heritage. One quote that I often refer back to in situations like this is "Never ascribe to malevolence what can easily be explained by incompetence."

 

The first time I noticed the multiples was the year that Steve Geppi gave them a boatload of comics to sell, including 3 copies deep on some issues. They would put 2 copies of an issue in the same sale and I'm certain that if Steve had even hinted that it was a problem that Heritage would have pulled book for a later sale. The reason I point this out is that no one has introduced any facts into evidence that this was not approved by a consignor.

[adamstrange]

Well, the Heritage price is not a "real" price. It was a deflated one.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

 

First he's too cheap. Then he's too expensive. If only he could be just right.

 

(Just taking a cheap shot. An attempt at a substantial reply still to come.)

[adamstrange]

It is definitely good in the short term for buyers b/c it has reduced the prices. Whether this will be a good thing in the long term is yet to be seen. Many comic dealers are certainly not happy about it b/c customers then want to know why they can't buy a book at a "Heritage price". Well, the Heritage price is not a "real" price. It was a deflated one.

 

Maybe I parsing too fine a point on this one, but are the only "fake" prices due to multiple copies? Part of the charm and excitement of auctions is that books can go real cheap or real expensive on any given day, so I don't get why this is a big sin or a difficult question to answer. I would reply that they can't get the Heritage price because they didn't bid at that auction, and, if they had, there's no guarantee the other person wouldn't have outbid them.

[adamstrange]

I handle very specialized legal cases, and on many occasions I take on a client b/c I believe in the case even when that client has little to no money. There is a cause involved.

 

You have helped out the folks on this forum and I really appreciate it. I'm not likely to get caught up in those situations, but I've been through my share of hard knocks and don't mind seeing perps taken down a notch.

 

THANKS!

[tth2]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's cool to have 2 completely equally matched ECs that differ only in page quality. Does the market care? Will they sell for the same price? If not, what will the difference be? Or will they all be RNM as is frequently the case?

They will all be RNM. The ECs NEVER sell.

 

They Halperin's? He's in no rush and it doesn't cost him anything.

Yes, most are his. I understand he doesn't need to sell and therefore can list whatever pie in the sky price he wants, but see my response to Esquire below as to why he's hurting himself in the long run.

[tth2]

Actually, from Jim's standpoint I don't know if he is screwing himself or not. He is the one who has set the reserve price so presumably he doesn't care if they don't sell. If someone wishes to meet the reserve, he is happy. So he "loses" nothing, and the catalogue looks great with all these HG ECs.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

Your second paragraph would certainly fit my definition of screwing oneself! Yes, he doesn't need to sell below his asking price, but with the way he's flooded the market and altered perceptions of availability, he's effectively inhibited the books from ever moving up to his asking price, in my opinion.

 

Just to be clear, as is pointed out by FFB in this thread, anyone who takes a look at the CGC census can see very clearly that ECs are not rare in high grade because of the Gaines file copies. In fact, they are shockingly abundant, as easy or easier to find in high grade than many SA Marvels, particularly in uber grades like 9.6 and 9.8. Having said that, the constant floating of so many ultra-HG ECs in Heritage auctions is so "in your face" that it destroys any illusion anyone might have, or might want to have, about the books' scarcity.

[adamstrange]

It is definitely good in the short term for buyers b/c it has reduced the prices. Whether this will be a good thing in the long term is yet to be seen. Many comic dealers are certainly not happy about it b/c customers then want to know why they can't buy a book at a "Heritage price". Well, the Heritage price is not a "real" price. It was a deflated one.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

 

Heritage makes it easy to look up past sales, but they're not the only one that does this, it happens all the time on ebay. Folks were complaining in the General Forum that on 10 cent day the saw the same auctions they had seen for several years. With the eBay's relatively quick purge process a newbie wouldn't have a chance to know that.

 

Regarding the deflated price, that's something that can happen to any dealer. I've seen numerous cases of Dealer X pricing a book at 100, only to have some other dealer come up with a copy for 75 bucks. Wouldn't that make Dealer X just as mad as the low price in the auction? To me, it's just business. You probably notice Heritage more than some dealers do because they do such a large volume of business in key GA.

 

In the grand scheme of things, Heritage really doesn't have much interest in dealers in a collectibles market that they are targeting. To some extent, they want to be a volume shop.

 

The coin world is where they honed their strategy and Halperin has done lengthy interviews on what they are trying to do and it's impact on dealers. I have a couple of these interviews saved, although my files are still jumbled so I don't know that I can find them.

 

I'll try to relate what I understood about their viewpoint from the interviews (this is a little rough and remember that this is my paraphasing):

Volume is a virtue.

Volume reduces transaction costs,

Low transaction costs and volume create a more liquid market

A more liquid market encourages buyers and sellers to stick around

Volume creates a constant state of excitement as more scarce items turn up regularly Increased supply encourages collecting

All these things lead to more situations where someone collects one set of a thing, then sells it to start another set because: 1. they believe the second set can be built, 2. they'll have fun doing it, and 3. they are more likely to have broken even in selling the first set since transaction costs are low

 

I have many thought about this viewpoint (not saying I agree/disagree or say it could even happen). Maybe we can have long conversation at some point.

 

When compared to other collectible markets over the last 3 and a half decades, the ratio of dealer-to-auction sales has been very heavily weighted on the dealer side. The last few years with Heritage and eBay has changed that ratio dramatically.

[adamstrange]

My point in starting this thread was more to say that this is an opportunity for seeing how the market works rather than bashing Heritage for their choice of books.

 

[143ksk]

My point in starting this thread was more to say that this is an opportunity for seeing how the market works rather than bashing Heritage for their choice of books.

 

 

Sometimes threads have a mind of their own Why Heritage would choose to list so many similar books at the same time is also a worthy topic , just not what I thought was so interesting about this auction

[adamstrange]

Actually, from Jim's standpoint I don't know if he is screwing himself or not. He is the one who has set the reserve price so presumably he doesn't care if they don't sell. If someone wishes to meet the reserve, he is happy. So he "loses" nothing, and the catalogue looks great with all these HG ECs.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

Your second paragraph would certainly fit my definition of screwing oneself! Yes, he doesn't need to sell below his asking price, but with the way he's flooded the market and altered perceptions of availability, he's effectively inhibited the books from ever moving up to his asking price, in my opinion.

 

[esquirecomics]

In any event, Heritage doesn't do anything for anyone other than itself. Jim is an owner and he can do whatever he wants, which is great. They produce great catalogues b/c it is in their best business interest to do so, not b/c they care what we think as collectors. They care from a business standpoint. They get points from me for issuing such great catalogues. They get points from me for having a great online database. But lets not mistake why they are doing it.

 

If I cited 10 other beneficial things that Heritage does for comics, you could pull out this same argument that they only do it for their business. Under your accusation how could they ever do anything to get out of your doghouse short of committing hari-kiri?

 

In any event, I'm a fan of Adam Smith's view of capitalism whereby the selfish actions of individuals based on a profit motive can result in positive social benefit.

 

If you want to smack around Heritage, by all means do so, I just thought you were over-reaching a bit based on the multiple copies issue. You do describe another issue in your post and I'll reply to that one shortly.

 

I wouldn't say they are in my doghouse, or if they were that they need to do anything in order to get out. They are what they are. I buy from them. I sell with them. But I have no illusions in doing either.

 

I think there are several concerns which I could express from either a collector or a dealer perspective (some overlap, some not), both my own and from what I have heard from others. I can praise them. I can cricitize them. Certainly ample room to do both. I admire the business they have created, but I am concerned for the market they are harming.

 

The multiple issues aspect raises several different comments. For one thing, as was the intent of the original post in this thread, it does interestingly allow for price comparisons. As a seller, I would be annoyed - unless permission was secured from me first - of another copy of a book within a grade of the one I consigned. I think someone else mentioned that perhaps they do check. Well I have several books in this auction, and I see at least one has a book within one grade and no one checked first with me. I didn't know about it until I checked the catalogue. In any event, many of the comments on this issue have been mentioned above. I don't think I am overreaching by raising this concern, but to me it was only just one reason to justify a concern, not the only one which is perhaps how it was perceived in the post.

 

I am far more concerned (from an appearance level only at this time) about the mass submissions Heritage makes to CGC and how that impacts grading. And I am also very concerned about the pressing that Heritage engages in on at least a select number of books. With respect to the interest of the community, while the online database is fantastic, Heritage never reveals past history of a book even when it knows it, i.e., a change in grade, a removal of restoration, etc.

 

And there was the case of the likely false Reilly Sensation book that Heritage - and I spoke to them about this personally - was going to keep in its auction and I think probably would have had CGC not agreed to buy it.

 

Heritage has its good points and bad. But it is here probably to stay.

[esquirecomics]

I only buy from them, but if I had put a big key book up for sale say in 8.0 and they listed another one right next to it in the auction at 8.5 I would be really pissed. I guess if they own both books outright or check with the seller first it would be alright but wow.

 

If you are a seller you should work with your auction consultant regarding situations like this as they have pulled books before. Heritage has in the past made statements that they won't sell 2 copies in the same grade without discussing it with the consignor but that wouldn't apply when there is a 9.0 and a 9.2. Back in my original post I commented that this could be due to laziness on the part of Heritage. One quote that I often refer back to in situations like this is "Never ascribe to malevolence what can easily be explained by incompetence."

 

The first time I noticed the multiples was the year that Steve Geppi gave them a boatload of comics to sell, including 3 copies deep on some issues. They would put 2 copies of an issue in the same sale and I'm certain that if Steve had even hinted that it was a problem that Heritage would have pulled book for a later sale. The reason I point this out is that no one has introduced any facts into evidence that this was not approved by a consignor.

 

Candidly, none of my books have another in grade in this auction. There are close grades as I mentioned. All I can say is that Hakes did check with me on two books that were large ticket items ($5,000 - $10,000) and close in grade (and I think one was even several apart), and asked me if that bothered me. I think that is the preferable way to go.