Heritage Auction and Multiple Copies of the Same Book

[adamstrange]

I am far more concerned (from an appearance level only at this time) about the mass submissions Heritage makes to CGC and how that impacts grading. And I am also very concerned about the pressing that Heritage engages in on at least a select number of books. With respect to the interest of the community, while the online database is fantastic, Heritage never reveals past history of a book even when it knows it, i.e., a change in grade, a removal of restoration, etc.

 

And there was the case of the likely false Reilly Sensation book that Heritage - and I spoke to them about this personally - was going to keep in its auction and I think probably would have had CGC not agreed to buy it.

 

Now you're talking.

 

These to me are subtantive issues for which to put them in the doghouse. Focusing on the multiple copies was like prosecuting a hit-and-run driver for littering.

[esquirecomics]

It is definitely good in the short term for buyers b/c it has reduced the prices. Whether this will be a good thing in the long term is yet to be seen. Many comic dealers are certainly not happy about it b/c customers then want to know why they can't buy a book at a "Heritage price". Well, the Heritage price is not a "real" price. It was a deflated one.

 

Maybe I parsing too fine a point on this one, but are the only "fake" prices due to multiple copies? Part of the charm and excitement of auctions is that books can go real cheap or real expensive on any given day, so I don't get why this is a big sin or a difficult question to answer.

 

No, definitely not simply because of the multiple books of a particular issue. I was referring in general to the large volume of books, especially HG and high $$$, that are included in each auction. There are only so many people who can afford a $100k book. For that matter there are only so many people who can afford a $10k book. Yet each auction features multiple books that always reach into five figures and even six figures. That is why the Chuch copy of More Fun #53 went so cheap last auction, or the Marvel Mystery #1. Money spent from the top down also impacts the lower level books and decreases the sales price b/c there simply is not enough money to spread around.

 

I would reply that they can't get the Heritage price because they didn't bid at that auction, and, if they had, there's no guarantee the other person wouldn't have outbid them.

 

Exactly true. I'm not complaining about this point, but I know many dealers are. A lot of my sale inventory comes via Heritage. Easy to verify when someone checks the Heritage archives. Clearly I then mark the books up a certain percentage that is acceptable to me. Maybe they sell immediately, maybe not. If someone wanted the book, they should have bought it when it was available. Not my fault it went for whatever particular price.

 

I've bought books from other dealers knowing what they paid via Heritage also. They lucked out at the time. Not me. If I want the book, I pay their price. Market system continues.

[esquirecomics]

I handle very specialized legal cases, and on many occasions I take on a client b/c I believe in the case even when that client has little to no money. There is a cause involved.

 

You have helped out the folks on this forum and I really appreciate it. I'm not likely to get caught up in those situations, but I've been through my share of hard knocks and don't mind seeing perps taken down a notch.

 

THANKS!

 

Kiss aass.

 

Thanks.

[esquirecomics]

Actually, from Jim's standpoint I don't know if he is screwing himself or not. He is the one who has set the reserve price so presumably he doesn't care if they don't sell. If someone wishes to meet the reserve, he is happy. So he "loses" nothing, and the catalogue looks great with all these HG ECs.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

Your second paragraph would certainly fit my definition of screwing oneself! Yes, he doesn't need to sell below his asking price, but with the way he's flooded the market and altered perceptions of availability, he's effectively inhibited the books from ever moving up to his asking price, in my opinion.

 

Just to be clear, as is pointed out by FFB in this thread, anyone who takes a look at the CGC census can see very clearly that ECs are not rare in high grade because of the Gaines file copies. In fact, they are shockingly abundant, as easy or easier to find in high grade than many SA Marvels, particularly in uber grades like 9.6 and 9.8. Having said that, the constant floating of so many ultra-HG ECs in Heritage auctions is so "in your face" that it destroys any illusion anyone might have, or might want to have, about the books' scarcity.

 

That is definitely a reasonable way to view the situation. I just don't know if it is Jim's way. This is one of those time will tell situation.

 

One example. I bought my Mad #1 CGC 9.8 Gaines through Heritage a few months back. Cost me $32k. Now this auction has not only ANOTHER CGC 9.8 but also a CGC 9.6!!!!! I think that is crazy. It is one thing to offer another 9.8 even this soon, but to include a 9.6 alongside it???

 

And to make it perhaps worse, there are also a 7.5, a 7.0 AND the Bethelem 7.0 available also. I don't get the strategy. Except volume, volume, volume = higher SP and BP.

[esquirecomics]

It is definitely good in the short term for buyers b/c it has reduced the prices. Whether this will be a good thing in the long term is yet to be seen. Many comic dealers are certainly not happy about it b/c customers then want to know why they can't buy a book at a "Heritage price". Well, the Heritage price is not a "real" price. It was a deflated one.

 

However, to collectors/investors, particularly the majority of people who don't know what we know, i.e., that these are Jim's copies, it gives the impression, at least to some, that (a) there are multiples and multiples of HG ECs floating around and/or (b) that ECs are somewhat dead in that they don't sell.

 

Heritage makes it easy to look up past sales, but they're not the only one that does this, it happens all the time on ebay. Folks were complaining in the General Forum that on 10 cent day the saw the same auctions they had seen for several years. With the eBay's relatively quick purge process a newbie wouldn't have a chance to know that.

 

But is not E-bay's archives only available for 90 days?

 

Regarding the deflated price, that's something that can happen to any dealer. I've seen numerous cases of Dealer X pricing a book at 100, only to have some other dealer come up with a copy for 75 bucks. Wouldn't that make Dealer X just as mad as the low price in the auction? To me, it's just business. You probably notice Heritage more than some dealers do because they do such a large volume of business in key GA.

 

Sure that happens. Can't be helped no matter what the industry is. If it were different, we'd be like the USSR was back in the good old days. You have two choices: black or white socks. The thing with Heritage is that they deal in the high end and high priced books (at least in the Signature auctions and that is really what I am focusing on, I'm not really talking about the little Internet auctions that they have every two weeks or whatever it is). And the Archive is available and easy to check before making a purchase. Thats what angers some dealers, as I've been told.

 

In the grand scheme of things, Heritage really doesn't have much interest in dealers in a collectibles market that they are targeting. To some extent, they want to be a volume shop.

 

That's what I said!

 

The coin world is where they honed their strategy and Halperin has done lengthy interviews on what they are trying to do and it's impact on dealers.

 

Exactly.

[esquirecomics]

I am far more concerned (from an appearance level only at this time) about the mass submissions Heritage makes to CGC and how that impacts grading. And I am also very concerned about the pressing that Heritage engages in on at least a select number of books. With respect to the interest of the community, while the online database is fantastic, Heritage never reveals past history of a book even when it knows it, i.e., a change in grade, a removal of restoration, etc.

 

And there was the case of the likely false Reilly Sensation book that Heritage - and I spoke to them about this personally - was going to keep in its auction and I think probably would have had CGC not agreed to buy it.

 

Now you're talking.

 

These to me are subtantive issues for which to put them in the doghouse. Focusing on the multiple copies was like prosecuting a hit-and-run driver for littering.

 

[Timulty]

Busy night, Mark? Oh by the way, Texas Won.

[esquirecomics]

Busy night, Mark? Oh by the way, Texas Won.

 

I know, I need to be working on a brief but AS motivates me to post responses.

[adamstrange]

Heritage makes it easy to look up past sales, but they're not the only one that does this, it happens all the time on ebay. Folks were complaining in the General Forum that on 10 cent day the saw the same auctions they had seen for several years. With the eBay's relatively quick purge process a newbie wouldn't have a chance to know that.

 

 

But is not E-bay's archives only available for 90 days?

 

I think it is a good thing that Heritage has auction archives available going back forever.

 

I think it is a bad thing that eBay doesn't.

[adamstrange]

Busy night, Mark? Oh by the way, Texas Won.

 

I know, I need to be working on a brief but AS motivates me to post responses.

 

I hope it turns out better than your posts. Though you seem to be doing better tonight.

[esquirecomics]

Heritage makes it easy to look up past sales, but they're not the only one that does this, it happens all the time on ebay. Folks were complaining in the General Forum that on 10 cent day the saw the same auctions they had seen for several years. With the eBay's relatively quick purge process a newbie wouldn't have a chance to know that.

 

 

But is not E-bay's archives only available for 90 days?

 

I think it is a good thing that Heritage has auction archives available going back forever.

 

I think it is a bad thing that eBay doesn't.

 

We are now agreeing too many times in the same thread on the same night.

[Timulty]

Well even the Sun can shine on an AS's now and then!!!!

[tth2]

Heritage makes it easy to look up past sales, but they're not the only one that does this, it happens all the time on ebay. Folks were complaining in the General Forum that on 10 cent day the saw the same auctions they had seen for several years. With the eBay's relatively quick purge process a newbie wouldn't have a chance to know that.

 

 

But is not E-bay's archives only available for 90 days?

 

I think it is a good thing that Heritage has auction archives available going back forever.

 

I think it is a bad thing that eBay doesn't.

eBay works on much smaller commissions than Heritage, and if eBay kept archives for comics going back forever, presumably they would need to do the same for all items sold on eBay. Given that the volume of transactions on eBay DWARVES Heritage, do you have any idea the amount of storage that would be required? Some guy at EMC or Network Appliance could probably retire on that account alone. Anyways, unlike Heritage, people can load and host their own scans on eBay, so there'd be no way for eBay to stop them from taking those scans down (Jason Ewert was probably consistently the fastest when it came to taking his scans down as soon as an auction had finished).

[Bonds25]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's cool to have 2 completely equally matched ECs that differ only in page quality. Does the market care? Will they sell for the same price? If not, what will the difference be? Or will they all be RNM as is frequently the case?

They will all be RNM. The ECs NEVER sell.

 

Sad, but too true. I have done my usual and bid on about 20 Gaines File copies, and I'm sure that I'll miss the reserve price by a huge amount. You're not likely to win one unless you bid about 5 times NM guide.

[comicnut]

Just wanted to add a General comment on Heritage.

I've been buying from them for about four years now.

My experience with them is mostly good but their pure volume attitude has led to some problems.

 

1. They are so used to "the sausage factory" of post-sell-ship, that when you send a request in for a specific item to be shipped, it gets missed. I just did this recently for a Marvel Mystery #7 that I wanted shipped to my friend Matt for some resto work and I ended up with the copy. Huge pain since I have to pay tax and customs on the book to accept it here in Canada, and then send it back down.

 

2. About 10% of the low grade books I buy are overgraded. This is everything from missing pages to missing obvious restoration work. I bought a book recently that was graded as and looked to be about a GD, but when I got it the spine was completely split, no mention in description. On a different book I was missing a CF, and the worst part was when I sent the book back they relisted it with no ammendment to the description.

 

3. They have in the past listed key coverless books without properly researching exactly what books they have. In one auction they were wrong on 3 or 4 books. Silly me just bought them trusting they of all people would take care to get the books right. The only reason I noticed was because I bought the exact same copy (More Fun 54) from someone else. Thus when the two arrived and were different I had to figure out what happened (Now I'm a GCD indexer).

 

4. The employees don't communicate with each other as much as they should and don't follow through on what they are supposed to do. When I call up and talk to someone about an issue, sometimes they say I'll pass this on to so and so. They rarely end up doing it, because I usually have to call back to get results. Same story for following up, I send books back and am supposed to get a credit. I get a receipt saying they got the book back and it will be posted to my account. When I try and pay for a current auction, the person I'm paying states that they don't see any credit on my account. This leads me to have to say to phone so and so for verification etc.

 

5. When you complain about some of these issues, (Lon sends out customer satisfaction emails occasionally to specific people), he never follows up on them.

 

Wow, I guess that was a lot of complaining, been building up a while I guess.

Anyway, I still happily buy off them realizing that they are a volume seller and with it goes problems like these.

 

In the end I would like to say I am happy with them (although they overgrade sometimes), and think that they are helping the industry.

[adamstrange]

Heritage makes it easy to look up past sales, but they're not the only one that does this, it happens all the time on ebay. Folks were complaining in the General Forum that on 10 cent day the saw the same auctions they had seen for several years. With the eBay's relatively quick purge process a newbie wouldn't have a chance to know that.

 

 

But is not E-bay's archives only available for 90 days?

 

I think it is a good thing that Heritage has auction archives available going back forever.

 

I think it is a bad thing that eBay doesn't.

eBay works on much smaller commissions than Heritage, and if eBay kept archives for comics going back forever, presumably they would need to do the same for all items sold on eBay. Given that the volume of transactions on eBay DWARVES Heritage, do you have any idea the amount of storage that would be required? Some guy at EMC or Network Appliance could probably retire on that account alone. Anyways, unlike Heritage, people can load and host their own scans on eBay, so there'd be no way for eBay to stop them from taking those scans down (Jason Ewert was probably consistently the fastest when it came to taking his scans down as soon as an auction had finished).

 

Not my problem. As a customer, I simply want what I want.

 

Actually, eBay is a big boy and could choose to save images for a select set of auctions. For example they could just do it for certain price levels with certain categories. They could capture hosted images as well.

 

It doesn't have to be anywhere near as expensive as you make it out to be, but I agree with you that it is unlikely to happen.

[tth2]

Not my problem. As a customer, I simply want what I want.

Yes, but as a shareholder of eBay the only thing I want them to do is increase revenues and decrease expenses.

[adamstrange]

Not my problem. As a customer, I simply want what I want.

Yes, but as a shareholder of eBay the only thing I want them to do is increase revenues and decrease expenses.

 

Boot-lickin, heel-clickin toady of the capitalist overlords!

[tth2]

Not my problem. As a customer, I simply want what I want.

Yes, but as a shareholder of eBay the only thing I want them to do is increase revenues and decrease expenses.

 

Boot-lickin, heel-clickin toady of the capitalist overlords!

[FFB]

Not my problem. As a customer, I simply want what I want.

Yes, but as a shareholder of eBay the only thing I want them to do is increase revenues and decrease expenses.

 

Boot-lickin, heel-clickin toady of the capitalist overlords!