4000th post - PQ, an interesting observation

[burntboy]

for my 4000th post (it's taken a bit over 2 years to reach this point), i thought i'd spend some time pointing out what IMHO is an interesting phenomenon regarding page quality.

 

my subject group are 4 JLA's from my Sid's collection that were all purchased from the same store within seven months of one another. the books are JLA's # 27, 28, 29 & 32.

 

they are all CGC'd as follows;

 

#27 - 9.2 OW/W pgs

#28 - 9.6 White pgs

#29 - 8.0 OW pgs (one of the very 1st Sid's books sold but never consumated by the buyer).

#32 - 9.0 Cream/OW pgs

 

now check out the 4th paragraph from my COA's for info on how the books were stored.

 

and here's what i find amazing; all 4 of these books had the exact same life under the exact same storage conditions for over 40 years. they sat next to each other. none of these books were displayed in any fashion. they were published only 7 months apart.

 

and yet, each of them has a different page quality............

 

Thoughts??

[goldust40]

Interesting how the grades vary in no particular order either. All I can think of is that paper stock, along with the cover inks, may have varied from month to month.

 

If they were all stored in identical conditions there can't be many reasons, unless CGC graders vary their perception of PQ from day to day ....

[FFB]

and here's what i find amazing; all 4 of these books had the exact same life under the exact same storage conditions for over 40 years. they sat next to each other. none of these books were displayed in any fashion. they were published only 7 months apart.

 

and yet, each of them has a different page quality............

 

Thoughts??

 

Comic book paper is high-lignin-content groundwood pulp sized with highly acidic alum rosin sizing that was not manufactured with rigid tolerances for chemical composition. The batches varied in terms of acidity and also in terms of content, so if one book was printed on paper stock that came from a roll of newsprint that had a relatively higher level of impurities, it would age faster than a book made with a better batch of paper, even if stored under identical conditions.

[Crackandpresstoan11]

unless CGC graders vary their perception of PQ from day to day ....

 

[mica]

I'm bettin it's those pastel covers that mess with everything.

[thedude]

I myself have thought about this kind of thing and I have a theory, while I do feel that storage conditions are very important, I also feel that certain books are just prone to have lasting page whiteness over other books of the exact same time period or even another identical copy of the same book.

 

my guess is that when the wood pulp was washed in acid in the process of making it into paper, that some pages didn't have a substantial amount of acid in the final product, causing the pages to retain their whiteness while others contained more of the acid washing chemical causing those books to turn cream or brown and brittle quicker over time...anybody else feel this way..

 

I've seen raw GA books with really nice pages that were G/VGs at best ,which would lead me to believe that they was no thought or consideration to there storage invironment, and yet they still have fresh pages... and I've seen technically VF/NM books with tan or brown pages...

 

this is my theory, I could be WAY off on this..

[Timulty]

and here's what i find amazing; all 4 of these books had the exact same life under the exact same storage conditions for over 40 years. they sat next to each other. none of these books were displayed in any fashion. they were published only 7 months apart.

 

and yet, each of them has a different page quality............

 

Thoughts??

 

Comic book paper is high-lignin-content groundwood pulp sized with highly acidic alum rosin sizing that was not manufactured with rigid tolerances for chemical composition. The batches varied in terms of acidity and also in terms of content, so if one book was printed on paper stock that came from a roll of newsprint that had a relatively higher level of impurities, it would age faster than a book made with a better batch of paper, even if stored under identical conditions.

 

Now, someone please make sure they remember this post. This is a very, very, very important bit of information. Not all comic books were created equal. I think, a GA example of this would be Fawcett books, white pages are very, very rare for the above stated reason.

[burntboy]

Interesting how the grades vary in no particular order either. All I can think of is that paper stock, along with the cover inks, may have varied from month to month.

 

If they were all stored in identical conditions there can't be many reasons, unless CGC graders vary their perception of PQ from day to day ....

 

Andy; the grading differentials are likely a product of 2 main factors; 1. the condition of the book at time of purchase - i didn't give a second thought to condition when buying - just picked the first one as long as it wasn't torn or dented. 2. my personal handling of the books probably had a lot to do with how much i liked the story and how many times it was therefore read.

 

it's no wonder to me that the 29 was handled the most..............

[thedude]

and here's what i find amazing; all 4 of these books had the exact same life under the exact same storage conditions for over 40 years. they sat next to each other. none of these books were displayed in any fashion. they were published only 7 months apart.

 

and yet, each of them has a different page quality............

 

Thoughts??

 

Comic book paper is high-lignin-content groundwood pulp sized with highly acidic alum rosin sizing that was not manufactured with rigid tolerances for chemical composition. The batches varied in terms of acidity and also in terms of content, so if one book was printed on paper stock that came from a roll of newsprint that had a relatively higher level of impurities, it would age faster than a book made with a better batch of paper, even if stored under identical conditions.

 

YES !! this is what I was trying to say in my post as well, I 100% agree..

[jimjum12]

This is a topic that has always interested me.A particular issue that I have noticed from this time period is F.F. # 13.I have never seen a certified copy with WHITE pages.How does the page quality on your copy look?It could just be circumstantial that I haven't seen a white pager for sale,as I cetainly haven't seen every sale in every grade.An original owner collection turned up in this area about 4 years ago with grades ranged from VG to NM-.Most of the books were VF or better and were stored in hat boxes and apple crates.They spanned the mid fifties until 1964 and the page quality varied from cream to white(average off white).It was one of the neatest collections to ever turn up here.It yielded a Spidey # 1 that slabbed out at 9.2.although I don't recall the page quality on that one.The FF 13 in that collection had lesser PQ than the FF'S that surrounded it but was bought by the same person in the same area and stored the same way.I had often wondered if the atmospheric conditions at the press could have had something to do with it,i.e. humidity,heat,cold,were the bay doors open,etc?I had never thought about the other factors entertained here.VERY informative.It's a shame no one has the time or the money to do a chemical analysis on certain issues.That would be interesting.Thanks for bringing this up.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[burntboy]

This is a topic that has always interested me.A particular issue that I have noticed from this time period is F.F. # 13.I have never seen a certified copy with WHITE pages.How does the page quality on your copy look?It could just be circumstantial that I haven't seen a white pager for sale,as I cetainly haven't seen every sale in every grade.An original owner collection turned up in this area about 4 years ago with grades ranged from VG to NM-.Most of the books were VF or better and were stored in hat boxes and apple crates.They spanned the mid fifties until 1964 and the page quality varied from cream to white(average off white).It was one of the neatest collections to ever turn up here.It yielded a Spidey # 1 that slabbed out at 9.2.although I don't recall the page quality on that one.The FF 13 in that collection had lesser PQ than the FF'S that surrounded it but was bought by the same person in the same area and stored the same way.I had often wondered if the atmospheric conditions at the press could have had something to do with it,i.e. humidity,heat,cold,were the bay doors open,etc?I had never thought about the other factors entertained here.VERY informative.It's a shame no one has the time or the money to do a chemical analysis on certain issues.That would be interesting.Thanks for bringing this up.GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

 

virtually all of my Marvels had PQ of at least off-white and the ones that graded as white were really hit or miss like my ASM #7...............

 

unfortunately, my FF #13 is a beater - kinda hard to figure, because i don't recall being all that enthralled with the issue and my #11 was 9.4 and my #15 is a 9.2...

 

now the #12 and 14 being mid-grade, i fully understand.................

[jimjum12]

I remember seeing your F.F. # 11 on Doug's site.WHATTA BOOK ! I think that was the first time I had seen one of your books and If memory serves me,they were referred to as the "burntboy" collection.That was always one of my favorite issues.That surprise birthday party they threw for Sue in Kurrgo's spacecraft was classic.I still don't think that cover was inked by Ayers,the question is who?Once again,thanks for responding and congratulations on your 4000th post.I doubt I'll ever reach that number as my typing speed is probably about 60 words per hour. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[PovertyRow]

Comic book paper is high-lignin-content groundwood pulp sized with highly acidic alum rosin sizing ...

 

While Scott is correct about the variances in paper quality, I would tend to look more closely at variances in storage. THAT is where a lot of this will factor, IMO. I have a hard time buying into the variances in paper quality being the main cause.

 

All is not what it seems. To quote

 

"The books were initially stored "naked" in old cardboard boxes, then kept in dresser drawers between 1962 and 1976. ... It wasn't until 1981 that I began using mylites with acid-free backing boards and storing the books in comic boxes boxes (SIC)"

 

Too many variables are here. Even considering the examples were all from the stored in dresser drawers days. (If we include the pre-dresser drawer "naked in cardboard" books then we have a major skew there. So I will just concentrate on the bureau drawers period. My quesitons would be:

 

1) How many dresser drawers?

 

2) More than one dresser? If more than one dresser what locations were they in? All in the same room? In different rooms? (see 3 for more on this.)

 

3) What about heating? Is this is long wide dresser? Was one end closer to a radiator or similar type of home heating, causing warmer conditions there but cooler on the opposite end of the dresser?

 

4) How large were the drawers? How many books on the bottom of the stacks were there? (These would come in direct contact with the wood itself.)

 

5) How deep were the stacks? Middle books could have benefited sufficiently from being in the middle by a shift from OW-W to W, or CR-OW to OW-W.

 

6) Were some books more frequently pulled out to read etc? Or, to put it another way, were some drawers kept closed and rarely opened while other drawers were opened more frequently?

[adamstrange]

The easiest way to verify that variation in page quality can be substantially due to acidity of the underlying paper is to look at the DC 80pg giants and annuals from the 60s. I'm a big collector of these and have examples where half the pages are white and half the pages are off-white. In addition the off-white pages have a different "feel" and, sometimes, visible flecks of pulp.

[PovertyRow]

The easiest way to verify that variation in page quality can be substantially due to acidity of the underlying paper is to look at the DC 80pg giants and annuals from the 60s. I'm a big collector of these and have examples where half the pages are white and half the pages are off-white. In addition the off-white pages have a different "feel" and, sometimes, visible flecks of pulp.

 

This is true, and I am not saying that variances in acidity are not a factor. But the biggest factor is storage conditions. All older comic book paper is acidic. But it is the storage conditions that can really cause the acids to do their thing. It would be interesting to determine the acidic content of those differing pages in the same books. Since they have a different feel and visible flecks of pulp, I have to wonder how white the paper was to begin with. And I do feel the facotrs I brought up can defintitely impact the same group of books in different ways.

[tth2]

Harry, an interesting question, and others more expert than me have already addressed the PQ issues. I would echo one of the sentiments expressed that the difference between C-OW and OW is not so absolute, so CGC's distinctions have to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

What is interesting to me is how the structural quality of your books mirrors the general structural quality that these particular issues are generally found in.

 

#27 is relatively easy to find in 9.2 and 9.4 (although I don't have a copy ), and yours is a 9.2.

 

#28 is surprisingly easy to find in 9.6, and yours turns out to be a 9.6. If I hadn't owned a copy already, I would definitely have purchased yours.

 

#29 is relatively hard to find in NM, although your 8.0 copy is perhaps a bit below the norm.

 

#32 is perhaps the exception, as it is not a particularly difficult book to find in NM, but your copy came out as a 9.0.

[divad]

Comic book paper is high-lignin-content groundwood pulp sized with highly acidic alum rosin sizing ...

 

While Scott is correct about the variances in paper quality, I would tend to look more closely at variances in storage. THAT is where a lot of this will factor, IMO. I have a hard time buying into the variances in paper quality being the main cause.

 

All is not what it seems. To quote

 

"The books were initially stored "naked" in old cardboard boxes, then kept in dresser drawers between 1962 and 1976. ... It wasn't until 1981 that I began using mylites with acid-free backing boards and storing the books in comic boxes boxes (SIC)"

 

Too many variables are here. Even considering the examples were all from the stored in dresser drawers days. (If we include the pre-dresser drawer "naked in cardboard" books then we have a major skew there. So I will just concentrate on the bureau drawers period. My quesitons would be:

 

1) How many dresser drawers?

 

2) More than one dresser? If more than one dresser what locations were they in? All in the same room? In different rooms? (see 3 for more on this.)

 

3) What about heating? Is this is long wide dresser? Was one end closer to a radiator or similar type of home heating, causing warmer conditions there but cooler on the opposite end of the dresser?

 

4) How large were the drawers? How many books on the bottom of the stacks were there? (These would come in direct contact with the wood itself.)

 

5) How deep were the stacks? Middle books could have benefited sufficiently from being in the middle by a shift from OW-W to W, or CR-OW to OW-W.

 

6) Were some books more frequently pulled out to read etc? Or, to put it another way, were some drawers kept closed and rarely opened while other drawers were opened more frequently?

 

Micro-environments

[PovertyRow]

Micro-environments

 

What do you expect from someone who lives in San Francisco?

 

[Aman619]

Im with FFB on this. Newsprint composition can vary from the outide to the inside of a single roll. Also, I m assuming these JLAs were next to each other in the same drawer, right? so they each were affected simultaneously by the same atmosphere in your drawer.

 

uhhm it wasnt your underwear drawer was it??

[awe4one]

Comic book paper is high-lignin-content groundwood pulp sized with highly acidic alum rosin sizing that was not manufactured with rigid tolerances for chemical composition. The batches varied in terms of acidity and also in terms of content, so if one book was printed on paper stock that came from a roll of newsprint that had a relatively higher level of impurities, it would age faster than a book made with a better batch of paper, even if stored under identical conditions.

 

Damn...you've said it much clearer than I would have...I agree!

 

Jim