Boy Comics # 17 New Thread

[sborock]

I thought I would start a new thread so this would not get buried in the old one.

 

I’ve received numerous comments by email and PM about the Edgar Church/Mile High copy of Boy Comics #17, even after the first time I posted about it. It seems people felt that my answers were not sufficient (I did do it in a hurry). I will again address this issue. Mostly, the email and PMs, relate to the probability of a book going from a 4.0 to a 9.0. If someone had asked me, prior to this instance, if this jump in grade was possible, I would have said that it is not.

 

Here we have the exception to the rule.

 

The set of defects present on this particular book were such that this considerable jump in grade was possible. First, the front and back cover were heavily abraded, but there were almost no color breaks. Second, the two center wraps were detached. Having two center wraps detached significantly affects the grade of any comic book that is not already low grade. The wraps were re-attached by opening up the prongs of the staple and then placing them back down firmly in the same position over paper still present on the wraps. This is a non-restorative procedure (no glue or reinforcement). Re-attaching a centerfold, or even a cover, without adding anything to the book (thus not constituting restoration) is something that most hobbyists, collectors and dealers have done many times over. This kind of activity has NEVER been considered to be restoration. It is not always possible to re-attached a centerfold or cover without glue or reinforcement (Restoration). It would depend on the page quality, amount of paper at staple area and staple placement.

 

Then the Boy Comics #17 was probably pressed, removing some of the non color breaking defects. There are many ways to press a comic book and this one still retained some defects that could have been removed if pressed differently.

 

The Boy Comics #17 was sent to CGC and since there were less defects present on the comic book, it received a higher grade. The book must have been later on pressed to its full potential, which resulted in a second upgrade to a 9.0. Remember, we grade every comic book in front of us as a new submission and it is graded as it appears in front of us in an objective and impartial manner.

 

This clearly was a perfect candidate for pressing.

 

There are books that grade 4.0 and lower, but almost all cannot be improved to a 9.0, much less even a 5.0, without restoration or treatment resulting in an apparent (Restored) grade at CGC. In fact, the set of defects on this book is so unique that I am not sure I will ever see more than a handful of books like this, that’s possible to go from a 4.0 to a 9.0, in the future. I also want to make this very clear, CGC does not and has never considered re-attachment of original parts of a comic book (without using reinforcement or glue), erasure, dry cleaning or pressing to be restoration and as such, it is not noted on the CGC label.

 

Even if everybody does not agree 100% with our business (I don't know any business that consumers agree 100% with) you still have to ask yourself; are you better off and better educated today with CGC's certification and these boards than 6 years ago? 6 years ago (and today if you buy raw books) you had much, much more undetected restoration (color touch and tear seals among other things CGC and the rest of the hobby consider restoration) and un-objective grading because the person(s) grading the book owned it and one sellers 8.0 was another sellers 9.4. Some of you lived through this and that is why CGC got off the ground and is successful, some of you never had to deal with that stuff if you started collecting in the last 6 years, but you experience it online with raw books all the time. The bottom line is that I, and many others, believe we are much better off than before.

 

Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

-Steve

[ronm3-migration]

[The Black Hand ®]

Were you able to personally examine this book to ascertain your conclusion for certain and to certify that no other restoration took place, like dry or solvent cleaning?

[Timulty]

Thanks for addressing this subject. Then if a book is disassembled and put back together again with original staples, then that is not considered restoration? Just curious.

 

Edit: Let me clarify the above statement, long as reenforcement/glue is not used.

[AussieRuss]

Steve,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Are you aware of the reasoning behind the comic now being removed from the Heritage Auction.

 

In the past I have mainly seen book pulled from auctions if there is some kind of discrepancy with the label. If CGC has double checked the book & all is OK , it now seems odd to have the book withdrawn from auction.

 

I may be asking the wrong person but if anyone knows please feel free to chime in.

 

Regards,

 

Russ..

[FlamingCarrot]

If the centerfolds detached, that would mean the paper on which the staples pressed into the book were torn, correct? I mean, how else does the centerfold get detached?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Then the Boy Comics #17 was probably pressed, removing some of the non color breaking defects. There are many ways to press a comic book and this one still retained some defects that could have been removed if pressed differently.

 

The Boy Comics #17 was sent to CGC and since there were less defects present on the comic book, it received a higher grade. The book must have been later on pressed to its full potential, which resulted in a second upgrade to a 9.0. Remember, we grade every comic book in front of us as a new submission and it is graded as it appears in front of us in an objective and impartial manner.

 

This clearly was a perfect candidate for pressing.

 

Are you saying that the book was 1st pressed using a dry mount, then gone over once again with a tack iron before the 3rd submission? I assume both were done by professionals, as an amatuer would have caused damage to the book resulting in a downgrade rather than upgrade?

[Aman619]

If the centerfolds detached, that would mean the paper on which the staples pressed into the book were torn, correct? I mean, how else does the centerfold get detached?

 

yeah. Im still trying to picture what happened to loosen the centerfold but still to have been able to re-puncture it to reattach it... when the holes should have already been in th eexact spot the staples should have been already.

 

unless the book was manufactured without th ecenterfold being attached at all (!?) that woudl solve the problem,,,

[The Black Hand ®]

Or if someone had removed the centerfold for some reason and never reattached them, or if they were from another book.

[Aman619]

Steve B - - -

 

excellent choice to come back and talk to us at further length about the book. Thanx. I see now, from your perspective, how a book can go from a 4 to a 9 without having been 'restored'. Given YOUR strict interpretation of the process, I can only agree. But you gotta admit that while discussing the various methods this book underwent to transform it from a 4 to a 9 HAD to have made your head spin and say "whaaaaa" What am I saying??? I suppose CGC must be "legalistic" and draw distinct boundaries around what IS and ISNT restoration....but why cant it simply include ANY comic that was once known to have been in an INFERIOR state of structure etc?

 

So when CGC sees the same book and its now in better shape, it sure seems obvious to me that CGC should note it, and keep track of it, and not just let it go through as if it always were in its new condition. Give it a 9.0 for its present condition if you must, but never just sweep under the rug its former condition. THAT doesnt protect the collectors CGC always says it is looking out for.

 

and, frankly, you neednt have added that last paragraph. Why try to sell us on CGC here? I think it was out of place in the context of following up on the comic in question.

 

love ya anyway!

[Aman619]

Or if someone had removed the centerfold for some reason and never reattached them, or if they were from another book.

 

if the staples lined up, yeah.

[comicdonna]

We are still talking about a book jumping from a 4.0 to a 9.0 without any restoration.

[Aman619]

basically, yeah. Im still working that out too.

[Timulty]

I think what we need here is a complete definition of restoration by CGC. We keep getting fed bits and pieces which really adds to the confusion. I propose that a thread gets dedicated in the Restoration section defining CGC's classification of restoration. This thread should not be locked so that situational questions can be answered by CGC reps. It might take a while to get answers but having the answers, might facilitate and perhaps help alleviate allegations that have been made in the past. Thanks again Steve for your response in this matter.

[The Black Hand ®]

We are still talking about a book jumping from a 4.0 to a 9.0 without any restoration.

 

Well, according to Steve this was the "Exception", that once in a lifetime occurence that explains this all away. The book has been pulled instead of being left up there with a complete description. That book will be buried and not examined. Just another song and dance, just another cover-up.

[Illiterati-migration]

We are still talking about a book jumping from a 4.0 to a 9.0 without any restoration.

 

Well, according to Steve this was the "Exception", that once in a lifetime occurence that explains this all away. The book has been pulled instead of being left up there with a complete description. That book will be buried and not examined. Just another song and dance, just another cover-up.

 

"Isolated incident."

[gifflefunk]

I will again address this issue. Mostly, the email and PMs, relate to the probability of a book going from a 4.0 to a 9.0. If someone had asked me, prior to this instance, if this jump in grade was possible, I would have said that it is not.

 

But can a 5.5 jump to a 9.0 with just a clean and press or did this book also have some "exceptional" defects that were fixed without restoration?

1) Funny Pages V2 #11 - CGC 5.5 - Serial No. 0059057003

2) Funny Pages V2 #11 - CGC 9.0 - Serial No. 0090942001

 

What about the area near the staple on that Boy #17? I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation about that region yet.

[Aman619]

I think what we need here is a complete definition of restoration by CGC. We keep getting fed bits and pieces which really adds to the confusion. I propose that a thread gets dedicated in the Restoration section defining CGC's classification of restoration. This thread should not be locked so that situational questions can be answered by CGC reps. It might take a while to get answers but having the answers, might facilitate and perhaps help alleviate allegations that have been made in the past. Thanks again Steve for your response in this matter.

 

great idea. But CGC will say that HAVE spelled it out, or at least laid out all the pieces of the answer for us to see. And they will not (but should) do as you suggest because they have never listed their specific grading criteria eithert. CGC works best only in a manner in which they are not pinned down to anything, and can honestly (in their estimation) treat each book and situation consistently...while knowing that you can fudge the line whenever necessary, or applicable.

 

But thats just good business, I dont mind that. CGC overall does a good job. But they can never completely convince me that a book can be graded, fixed/altered, and regraded higher and the book wasnt RESTORED. And, since CGC HAS gone on record that some forms of restoration (pressing) just ARENT restoratiion (cue the Aflac duck for a double-take) when a book has been improved it MUST be acknowledged once uncovered... either on the label (if discovered by CGC) or on CGC website if found here on th eboards or elsewhere.

[Davenport]

I also want to make this very clear, CGC does not and has never considered re-attachment of original parts of a comic book (without using reinforcement or glue), erasure, dry cleaning or pressing to be restoration and as such, it is not noted on the CGC label.

 

It's all very confusing. If I'm understanding it...

 

*Paper that is not physically damaged (only curved, curled, bent, dented, or lightly wrinkled/ creased) will drop a CGC grade significantly. (the paper can be pressed flat again/grade improved)

 

*Paper that IS physically damaged (flaps, tears, abraded) but manipulated back into place or flattened with a press does NOT effect a CGC grade assesment. (like the staple area of the 9.0 version of the BOY #17)

 

Can someone clarify if I'm misunderstanding?

[ronm3-migration]

If the paper was pressed back into place it still should not increase the grade to a 9.0 because it is still there. I think it is all pretty ridiculous but it does seem to be at most several incidents. I cant fault CGC for having 100 books slip through if they have graded 600,000 books. It still works out them doing a great job. No one is perfect.

Are there alot of holes in this story? Hell yes.

I wouldnt doubt there are people that make phone calls and ask for favors on books. It is like that in every industry.

Over all CGC has created a safer market against the likes of Harley Yee and other unscrupulous dealers who dont bother to look for or just dont care if the books are restored and sell to collectors like myself.

I like my slabbed books. I like em alot.