Valiant - how much did it do for the comic industry (good or bad)?

[Psiknight]

I was 11-years-old when I bought my first Valiant comic. I remember going to my local comic shop and picking up a copy of Solar # 4, reading it, and loving it. I was quickly spending my weekly earnings buying whichever books I could afford. Alas, speculators drove the prices on many issues through the roof and I never picked up certain issues like Magnus #12 or Rai #3.

 

Anyway, I was curious as to what people thought was Valiant's lasting legacy, or do they even have one?

 

If you were to ask me: "What comes into your mind when you think of Valiant?" my reply would be "speculation." That's pretty much all I remember about Valiant, even moreso than the stories. I remember people I've never seen before coming into the LCS asking for copies of Harbinger #1, Magnus #12, etc. I also remember stocking an inordinate number of new Valiant issues every Wednesday. Each week it seemed we received more and more copies of new titles like Geomancer or HARD Corps. For a while, the LCS where I worked was doing record business off of this Valiant boom. Until around late-1994 or early 1995 there was a sudden fallout and those speculators that regularly came in stopped showing up.

 

In fact, I remember one of the biggest spenders came into the LCS with 4 or 5 longboxes full of rare Valiant issues maybe 2-3 months prior to the fallout looking to sell. He wanted $3000 for the lot, which was OS valued at around $15k. I strongly recommended to the shop owner that buying them was a BAD idea. He eventually decided that it wasn't worth buying. I'd say less than 3 months later, speculators were forcefully trying to unload their books.

 

My question is: How much do you think Valiant led to the mid-90s comic crash? Do you think it had as much of an impact as say the Death of Superman comic glut that flooded the market with speculators? Or was it inconsequential?

[joe_collector]

When I hear "Valiant" I think of "low print run scam", and the fact that it somehow sold the masses on the illusion that a) these books were printed in low quantities (actual print runs were higher) and b) that any "low print run" comic was immune to downward activity.

 

I can still remember selling off my Valiants (loved the content, but hated the specs and was getting out of new comics anyway) and using that store credit to buy a few stacks of BA. A few poor saps at the counter were making jabs at me for "selling out of a *sure thing*" and "buying those stupid Marvels".

 

Oh well, live and learn I guess.

[Psiknight]

When I hear "Valiant" I think of "low print run scam", and the fact that it somehow sold the masses on the illusion that a) these books were printed in low quantities (actual print runs were higher) and b) that any "low print run" comic was immune to downward activity.

 

I can still remember selling off my Valiants (loved the content, but hated the specs and was getting out of new comics anyway) and using that store credit to buy a few stacks of BA. A few poor saps at the counter were making jabs at me for "selling out of a *sure thing*" and "buying those stupid Marvels".

 

Oh well, live and learn I guess.

 

Some of the books had a pretty low run, I guess. 50,000 books was pretty low compared to some of the Marvels at the time. But then you got a book like Turok 1 that had a run of 1.5 million and you knew when that book came out that it was the end of the company...

 

The point about "any low print run book" immunity is right on. I knew a ton of people that thought "these books are so scarce that they'll always be a good investment." News flash: A low print run with NO demand = no value.

[joe_collector]

Some of the books had a pretty low run, I guess. 50,000 books was pretty low compared to some of the Marvels at the time.

 

But that 50K figure was artificially low, and many other copies went out the back door to various dealers, specs and other (cough) Merlin-like employees. Put another 25-50% on top of the "published" orders, and maybe more.

 

Right when Valiant started up, a few individuals already had the "low-print run" angle ready to go,

[Psiknight]

Some of the books had a pretty low run, I guess. 50,000 books was pretty low compared to some of the Marvels at the time.

 

But that 50K figure was artificially low, and many other copies went out the back door to various dealers, specs and other (cough) Merlin-like employees. Put another 25-50% on top of the "published" orders, and maybe more.

 

Right when Valiant started up, a few individuals already had the "low-print run" angle ready to go,

 

Is that correct? I've never heard that but I've also never really looked into Valiant, hence this thread.

 

Do you think Valiant had a big part in the "fall" of the comic industry in ths 90s?

[joe_collector]

Do you think Valiant had a big part in the "fall" of the comic industry in ths 90s?

 

Sure it did, but the main contributors to the comic book crash are:

 

1. Stupid speculators

2. Stupid comic store owners

3. Wizard

4. Comic book companies playing up 1, 2 and 3

[CJ]

Valiant books started out as very good to read, decent art stories from a company other then the BIG 2

 

Valiant happened towards the beginning of the "fall" of the industry which was FULL with speculators (espically sports card industry people) and they got caught up in the hype also.

[Genesis Comics]

For me, Valiant taught me a lot about the comic book "business". I was about 15 or 16. I was drawn in by the GREAT stories (if you haven't read the EARLY pre-unity books you should) and the lure of what the comics were "worth" I was one of the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who overpaid or overtraded for valiant books. Looking back, I traded an Amazing 129 9.2-9.4, Strange Tales 135 9.4-9.6, and gold key Dr. Solar 1 and 2 about F+/VF for books that I could have had 3 years later for pennies on the dollar. I didn't sell anything as I had so much invested and was able to make some money back this past year when Valiant books regained some popularity. Now to answer your question...I think valiant did a lot for the industry (both good and bad). First off the good...Valiant opened the doors for the other independents and showed that companies other than marvel and dc could be successful. It showed that good art and writing would sell books even if the marvel and dc logos were not on the books. A lot of quality material was put out in the first few years. Now the bad...Valiant started the craze of the retailer incentive gold/platinum which you received if you ordered a certain amount of books, which has now been reincarnated as the sketch variant...this is never good b/c it causes the little comic shops to overspend and order more books than they need just to stay competitive and get the variants that their customers ask for. The get stuck with back issues that aren't making them money sitting in the bins and causes stores to close eventually (which was very prolific in the mid 90's). Valiant also re-taught the industry what happens when you try to expand too quickly...your talent pool gets stretched and as good as the early issues are the later issues are terrible/unreadable...see Atlas Seaboard in the 70's. Valiant wasn't the sole reason for the crash in the mid-ninety's, Image, Death of Superman, and X-Men/Spider-Man # 1's with millions of copies, insufficiently_thoughtful_person speculators (see self), and stores just trying to make a quick buck all played a roll. So what did Valiant do for the industry...a lot, but good or bad is still up in the air...Jusy my 2 cents

If anyone is interested, check out valiantcomics.com It has a lot of information on all the valiant books including print runs, cover images, and a price guide.

[Psiknight]

For me, Valiant taught me a lot about the comic book "business". I was about 15 or 16. I was drawn in by the GREAT stories (if you haven't read the EARLY pre-unity books you should) and the lure of what the comics were "worth" I was one of the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who overpaid or overtraded for valiant books. Looking back, I traded an Amazing 129 9.2-9.4, Strange Tales 135 9.4-9.6, and gold key Dr. Solar 1 and 2 about F+/VF for books that I could have had 3 years later for pennies on the dollar. I didn't sell anything as I had so much invested and was able to make some money back this past year when Valiant books regained some popularity. Now to answer your question...I think valiant did a lot for the industry (both good and bad). First off the good...Valiant opened the doors for the other independents and showed that companies other than marvel and dc could be successful. It showed that good art and writing would sell books even if the marvel and dc logos were not on the books. A lot of quality material was put out in the first few years. Now the bad...Valiant started the craze of the retailer incentive gold/platinum which you received if you ordered a certain amount of books, which has now been reincarnated as the sketch variant...this is never good b/c it causes the little comic shops to overspend and order more books than they need just to stay competitive and get the variants that their customers ask for. The get stuck with back issues that aren't making them money sitting in the bins and causes stores to close eventually (which was very prolific in the mid 90's). Valiant also re-taught the industry what happens when you try to expand too quickly...your talent pool gets stretched and as good as the early issues are the later issues are terrible/unreadable...see Atlas Seaboard in the 70's. Valiant wasn't the sole reason for the crash in the mid-ninety's, Image, Death of Superman, and X-Men/Spider-Man # 1's with millions of copies, insufficiently_thoughtful_person speculators (see self), and stores just trying to make a quick buck all played a roll. So what did Valiant do for the industry...a lot, but good or bad is still up in the air...Jusy my 2 cents

If anyone is interested, check out valiantcomics.com It has a lot of information on all the valiant books including print runs, cover images, and a price guide.

 

I am still a fan of the pre-unity stuff. I think the artwork and the stories were both top notch. In fact, I think I'll pick up some of those books I couldn't afford before...I'm thinking I can get a NM+ copy of Magnus 12 for around $25-30 raw. That sure beats the $300 it commanded in the mid-90s!!

[blowout]

For me, Valiant taught me a lot about the comic book "business". I was about 15 or 16. I was drawn in by the GREAT stories (if you haven't read the EARLY pre-unity books you should) and the lure of what the comics were "worth" I was one of the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who overpaid or overtraded for valiant books. Looking back, I traded an Amazing 129 9.2-9.4, Strange Tales 135 9.4-9.6, and gold key Dr. Solar 1 and 2 about F+/VF for books that I could have had 3 years later for pennies on the dollar. I didn't sell anything as I had so much invested and was able to make some money back this past year when Valiant books regained some popularity. Now to answer your question...I think valiant did a lot for the industry (both good and bad). First off the good...Valiant opened the doors for the other independents and showed that companies other than marvel and dc could be successful. It showed that good art and writing would sell books even if the marvel and dc logos were not on the books. A lot of quality material was put out in the first few years. Now the bad...Valiant started the craze of the retailer incentive gold/platinum which you received if you ordered a certain amount of books, which has now been reincarnated as the sketch variant...this is never good b/c it causes the little comic shops to overspend and order more books than they need just to stay competitive and get the variants that their customers ask for. The get stuck with back issues that aren't making them money sitting in the bins and causes stores to close eventually (which was very prolific in the mid 90's). Valiant also re-taught the industry what happens when you try to expand too quickly...your talent pool gets stretched and as good as the early issues are the later issues are terrible/unreadable...see Atlas Seaboard in the 70's. Valiant wasn't the sole reason for the crash in the mid-ninety's, Image, Death of Superman, and X-Men/Spider-Man # 1's with millions of copies, insufficiently_thoughtful_person speculators (see self), and stores just trying to make a quick buck all played a roll. So what did Valiant do for the industry...a lot, but good or bad is still up in the air.

 

Nice post and sums up Valiants place in the industry very well.

 

I enjoyed the Valiant books back in the day, and it seems I was one of the few that didn't get burned speculating on them. That's probably why I have fonder memories of them than most, great stories, nice art and a very cohesive and well plotted universe.

[MK Ultra]

I thought TMNT showed that a company other than the big 2 could be successful?

[Psiknight]

I thought TMNT showed that a company other than the big 2 could be successful?

 

I don't think Mirage ever really competed on the same playing field as Marvel or DC. Not to say Valiant was really successful, but in the short run they did compete.

[Genesis Comics]

Mirage was successful, but on a small scale...if I remember correctly there was only TMNT and Usagi Yojimbo by Mirage that did anything (correct me if I'm wrong). While Mirage was successful it didn't take any market share of any significance from Marvel or DC. Valiant and Image both took away $ from the big 2. Mirage was a flash in the pan that never amounted to anything other than TMNT. I am not discrediting TMNT as a force in comics and afterwards mainstream America, it's just that Valiant was on a much bigger scale with 15-20 titles all of which were sold out EVERY week until the print runs became ridiculous, over 1 million plus for Bloodshot #1 and Turok # 1, and the ensuing crash came.

[joe_collector]

I enjoyed the Valiant books back in the day, and it seems I was one of the few that didn't get burned speculating on them. That's probably why I have fonder memories of them than most

 

Nah, I loved the early stories, and made a ton selling them, but the mass speculation left such a bad taste in my mouth that I can't think of Valiant without bad feelings.

 

I can still remember walking into the LCS and seeing people buying cases of those foil-enhanced Bloodshot. I also read through a Wizard that was really pumping up Valiant as a "can't miss" investment. This was when the insanity really started up, about 6 months before Turok and the real zaniness.

 

I don't think it was more than a week or two after, that I got a nice $$$ amount in store credit for all my Valiants and basicaly left the Modern comic book scene for good. I wasn't buying much since X-Men/X-Force/Spider-man #1 crapola, but Valiant speculation was the last straw and I've never been back.

[Psiknight]

I enjoyed the Valiant books back in the day, and it seems I was one of the few that didn't get burned speculating on them. That's probably why I have fonder memories of them than most

 

Nah, I loved the early stories, and made a ton selling them, but the mass speculation left such a bad taste in my mouth that I can't think of Valiant without bad feelings.

 

I can still remember walking into the LCS and seeing people buying cases of those foil-enhanced Bloodshot. I also read through a Wizard that was really pumping up Valiant as a "can't miss" investment. This was when the insanity really started up, about 6 months before Turok and the real zaniness.

 

I don't think it was more than a week or two after, that I got a nice $$$ amount in store credit for all my Valiants and basicaly left the Modern comic book scene for good. I wasn't buying much since X-Men/X-Force/Spider-man #1 crapola, but Valiant speculation was the last straw and I've never been back.

 

Unfortunately, my last modern title was purchased in 1996...I now read Copper Age titles that I never read and older independent stuff.

 

I worked summers at my LCS and I couldn't put up with the rampant variant cover junk. Remember Gen-13's thirteen covers? What BS.

[FlyingDonut]

Some of the books had a pretty low run, I guess. 50,000 books was pretty low compared to some of the Marvels at the time.

 

But that 50K figure was artificially low, and many other copies went out the back door to various dealers, specs and other (cough) Merlin-like employees. Put another 25-50% on top of the "published" orders, and maybe more.

 

Right when Valiant started up, a few individuals already had the "low-print run" angle ready to go,

 

You know, you keep saying this, and I've never heard it from anybody else. Where do you get your facts from? The first six months or so of each major Valiant book all had low print runs for the time. Are there a lot of them in high grade? Probably as a percentage, but there just weren't that many made

 

I'm not arguing that the post-Unity books were massively over printed, but the early stuff is legitimately short printed. .

[Genesis Comics]

If you check out valiantcomics.com it has print runs for almost all the issues (confirmed by valiant people who used to work for the company...the sight has been around since 1998 and the print runs have been adjusted when info was made available) The golds were mostly around 5000 and some pre-unity were as low as 30-35 thousand (Rai 3 and 4). The middle issues had astronomical print runs with the last issues of some titles barely reaching 10,000. An excellent sight with great information.

[Psiknight]

If you check out valiantcomics.com it has print runs for almost all the issues (confirmed by valiant people who used to work for the company...the sight has been around since 1998 and the print runs have been adjusted when info was made available) The golds were mostly around 5000 and some pre-unity were as low as 30-35 thousand (Rai 3 and 4). The middle issues had astronomical print runs with the last issues of some titles barely reaching 10,000. An excellent sight with great information.

 

I guess Joe would reply by saying something like "if Valiant gave out artificially low print runs in the first place, why would they tell the truth later on?"

[blowout]

If you check out valiantcomics.com it has print runs for almost all the issues (confirmed by valiant people who used to work for the company...the sight has been around since 1998 and the print runs have been adjusted when info was made available) The golds were mostly around 5000 and some pre-unity were as low as 30-35 thousand (Rai 3 and 4). The middle issues had astronomical print runs with the last issues of some titles barely reaching 10,000. An excellent sight with great information.

 

The guy that runs the site is a regular poster on these boards. Paging Valiantman...

[Psiknight]

If you check out valiantcomics.com it has print runs for almost all the issues (confirmed by valiant people who used to work for the company...the sight has been around since 1998 and the print runs have been adjusted when info was made available) The golds were mostly around 5000 and some pre-unity were as low as 30-35 thousand (Rai 3 and 4). The middle issues had astronomical print runs with the last issues of some titles barely reaching 10,000. An excellent sight with great information.

 

The guy that runs the site is a regular poster on these boards. Paging Valiantman...

 

I didn't know that. Maybe he has some issues for me.