Valiant - how much did it do for the comic industry (good or bad)?

[boomtown]

I have to agree with Jduran on this one. The reason artists left Marvel in the 80s correctly was because of Shooter. BUT it was because he demanded their books be on time, within continuity, and he didnt put up with their whiny [embarrassing lack of self control].

 

Marvel in the late 70s and thru mid 80s was never better in the last 30 years or so. The books were great on continuity, his Avengers Korvac run is one the top 3 storylines ever in the Avengers, and unlike today they made their deadlines.

 

Valiant was incredible during his run they didnt go downhill till he left and it was sold to Acclaim which had to clue what do with it and still doesnt.

 

 

Just a few points. The artists wouldn't work for Shooter because he was a pain in the a$s. Byrne, Miller, etc., etc., etc. Gene Colan, an artist that everybody should be able to agree, was one of the ultimate professionals couldn't get along with Shooter. I've read a story from Colan where Shooter would send his art back with page after page of nit picky changes to every panel. Actually it was Colan's wife who told the story how Gene would dredd getting his pages back from Shooter. That's what led to Colan moving to DC after 20+ years at Marvel.

 

The Korvac Saga started great with Perez art but fell apart terribly by the end of the 12 issue arc. Different tastes, I can accept that some people thought the last 3 or 4 chapters with fill in artists were great. He lost me when Korvac showed up in his jogging outfit. i guess Shooter liked that idea, as he used it again for the beyonder.

 

Your talking about how incredible Valiant was, but a couple of posts up you mention the only book you collected was the Eternal Warrior. If it was so great...

 

I've often heard Shooter described as having a "God-Complex", his ego is out of control. I wouldn't believe too much of his "versions" of how things went at Marvel or Valiant.

[joe_collector]

Let's not forget that Shooter was partly responsible for the Dark Phoenix Saga's ending in X-men #137 with the Death of Dark Phoenix.

 

And you're saying that's a GOOD thing?

 

That move got Byrne so angry that he left the book, and at the time, he and Claremont had the X-Men plotted out past issue 150 with no end in sight.

 

So basically, Shooter's hard head cost us all another few years (or more) of great X-Men stories and art. I'd trade the end of X-Men 137 for that 'alternate future" anyday, especially since Marvel retconned it by bringing back Jean Grey.

[fastballspecial]

I have to agree with Jduran on this one. The reason artists left Marvel in the 80s correctly was because of Shooter. BUT it was because he demanded their books be on time, within continuity, and he didnt put up with their whiny [embarrassing lack of self control].

 

Marvel in the late 70s and thru mid 80s was never better in the last 30 years or so. The books were great on continuity, his Avengers Korvac run is one the top 3 storylines ever in the Avengers, and unlike today they made their deadlines.

 

Valiant was incredible during his run they didnt go downhill till he left and it was sold to Acclaim which had to clue what do with it and still doesnt.

 

 

Just a few points. The artists wouldn't work for Shooter because he was a pain in the a$s. Byrne, Miller, etc., etc., etc. Gene Colan, an artist that everybody should be able to agree, was one of the ultimate professionals couldn't get along with Shooter. I've read a story from Colan where Shooter would send his art back with page after page of nit picky changes to every panel. Actually it was Colan's wife who told the story how Gene would dredd getting his pages back from Shooter. That's what led to Colan moving to DC after 20+ years at Marvel.

 

The Korvac Saga started great with Perez art but fell apart terribly by the end of the 12 issue arc. Different tastes, I can accept that some people thought the last 3 or 4 chapters with fill in artists were great. He lost me when Korvac showed up in his jogging outfit. i guess Shooter liked that idea, as he used it again for the beyonder.

 

Your talking about how incredible Valiant was, but a couple of posts up you mention the only book you collected was the Eternal Warrior. If it was so great...

 

I've often heard Shooter described as having a "God-Complex", his ego is out of control. I wouldn't believe too much of his "versions" of how things went at Marvel or Valiant.

 

Okay Ill give the Avengers run its my fav along with the early Byrne mini, but others before have disliked it too. The joggy suit was in style at that time I believe. Wasnt that the running fade.

 

I have an uncle who lives next to Don Perlin so I am going to email him and see if I can get any dirt on the story too. The only credential Ill give you is Colan. And you are right he was the consumate professional. How many times has Byrne quit Marvel now because of editorial dictates? I mean the man is a walking contradiction. You get paid to do a job we all know this. Your boss tells he dont like something you do it till he does simple as that.

 

I hold no grudge against Shooter for kiling Jean Grey I felt she deserved it too for what she did. It culminated the best storyline from the X-men books. I have read the other ending it doesnt have near the passion or dymanic that the death does. Go back and read the letter pages a few issues later. The fans hated it, but that doesnt mean it wasnt right. Remember all the hell Byrne got when he started on the FF.

 

I am not saying Shooter wasnt a perfectionist and an [embarrassing lack of self control] I am saying he did a good job at the time when Marvel was in serious trouble. DC had just cut a ton of its books and the direct market had just started. Heck I used to have a Boss that no matter how well I did something I knew that I would have to resubmit no matter what it just came with the job. I have no problem beleiving Shooter had a "God Complex" there arent many heads of companies who dont have one. Put JoeyQ in that situation he was in and see how he would have done.

 

I talk about Valiant's success in general terms. I also read X-0, Doctor Mirage, some Solar, Archer and Armstrong, and Rai, but my one book I loved was Eternal Warrior. The company kept their model together for a long time under alot of pressure to go the Image way. The books were very continuity tight something I hadnt seen for years at the time. He could be full of [embarrassing lack of self control] and just saying that stuff, but I am just basing it off of what I have read here, Wizard's interview a few years back and a few other articles.

[joe_collector]

Your boss tells he dont like something you do it till he does simple as that.

 

Not true. If your boss is a sociopath, you quit, as most of the big names did.

 

Byrne can be a bit of a knob, but ALL of those creators cannot ALL be wrong about Shooter.

[matewan1990]

I corresponded with Shooter a few years back and he was very friendly and helpful ... for the first couple of emails. He promised he'd help me interview several of the Valiant artists. Then, all of a sudden, he refused to reply to any of my emails and, to this day, still won't help me with the interviews. I don't know what happened. The last email I got from him was very cordial, so I'm not sure what it was I said. Oh well...

[valiantman]

I read all of it and I gathered two basic ideas.

 

1.) He got screwed royally.

 

2.) My opinion of Bob Layton has hit a new low.

 

.. This is assuming that everything written there is accurate.

 

To be fair, here's Bob Layton's take:

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/valiantdays/BobLayton-Interview.doc

 

A few more artist/writer interviews are at the bottom of this article:

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/valiantdays.asp

[joe_collector]

So Valiantman, what would be your take on the situation?

[valiantman]

So Valiantman, what would be your take on the situation?

 

Naive, most likely.

 

Shooter "at Valiant" - the books are most often regarded as the cream-of-the-crop,

stories are solid, art is attractive, and the continuity was all that could be desired.

 

Shooter "not at Valiant" - the books are often cited as being "lesser" quality,

particular titles may have had "bright spots", but overall, it was hit-or-miss with Valiant.

Many feel the "cashing in" on earlier popularity/quality/success was at least partially

responsible for the 1990s collapse of the comic book industry/market.

 

Regarding the drama behind the scenes, I have to take the word of the people who were there,

but personally, I don't think I care about the "drama".

Results are all that matter.

 

There are probably many points that aren't debated at all, and are important points...

such as "the venture capitalists didn't care about comics, they cared about profit".

 

There's a lot of finger-pointing on the "fine details", but if the big picture is that

the owners made their money, then sold to a company that didn't know what they were doing,

then it really doesn't matter if the company could have been micro-managed better.

 

Valiant was ultimately doomed by the employers, not by the employees.

[MK Ultra]

Does Jim Shooter = The Soup Nazi?

 

Passionate, Talented, and utterly incapable of getting along with anyone that didn't do exactly what he wanted?

[joe_collector]

No Royalties For You!!

[sckao]

 

Here's a historical curiosity... an uncashed check from Jim Shooter's parent company of Defiant and Broadway Comics...

 

[awe4one]

I can still remember walking into the LCS and seeing people buying cases of those foil-enhanced Bloodshot. I also read through a Wizard that was really pumping up Valiant as a "can't miss" investment. This was when the insanity really started up, about 6 months before Turok and the real zaniness.

 

Chuck was also really hyping the investment angle of the early Valiants in his NICE monthly newsletters (he's a bud of Shooter). I guess he got scared he may have gone too far because just before the Valiants crashed, he added a disclamer in the newsletter stating his advice shouldn't be used to speculate on comics' rise in value or something to that effect.

 

But I have to give Chuck some credit during that time...he did foresee the 90s crash about 2 years before it started and stopped hyping Marvels because of their inattention to the variant problem. Shame he didn't do the same for Image...

 

Jim

[the blob]

yet my LCS has what seem like HUNDREDS (I'm exagerrating, but they have a lot) of these Alias books in their 50 cent bins. Nobody wanted them.

 

the ones with the 75 cent price covers sold that low too?

 

I never got around to reading them, were they total crapola?

 

See, the thing with valiant was that they were pretty good reads, and still pretty good even when they went into overprinting mode. While many copies were bought for speculation, there were probably a good 50-150,000 people actually reading them at their peak, perhaps more (even if print-runs were 500K+). so, unlike Alias books, which nobody read and nobody cares about, Valiants were actually popular.

[Earl Davis]

Yep, there are a few of those Alias titles still sit in the discount boxes at my LCS as well (which is where the bulk of my Valiant collection came from over 10 years ago now (scary).

 

If a comic like 'Tenth Muse' sells less than 1,000 per cover to comic shops and some stores like yours and mine have copies still sitting in the cheap boxes, it makes you wonder how many actually get purchased by fans.

 

Yet Alias have already published around 150 comics in the last 12 months.

 

And yes, like Valiant before them I am enjoying reading many of the Alias titles, including Lullaby, OZ, LB&T and Deal with the Devil.

 

Earl.

[jduran1]

Does Jim Shooter = The Soup Nazi?

 

Passionate, Talented, and utterly incapable of getting along with anyone that didn't do exactly what he wanted?

 

How is Shooter any different than half of the forumites on this forum.

[jduran1]

The people who own full runs of some valiant collections will make a killing someday. The time isn't now but it will be in the near future. If you are a contrarian then you buy now while you can. The have all the charteristics of true valuable collectibles.

 

The problem with the people on this forum is they buy what everybody else wants to buy. So you pay a premium. But the HG keys that nobody wants. Your ROI will beat buying the hot books in the long run.

 

I

[DawgPhan]

I was 11-years-old when I bought my first Valiant comic. I remember going to my local comic shop and picking up a copy of Solar # 4, reading it, and loving it. I was quickly spending my weekly earnings buying whichever books I could afford. Alas, speculators drove the prices on many issues through the roof and I never picked up certain issues like Magnus #12 or Rai #3.

 

Anyway, I was curious as to what people thought was Valiant's lasting legacy, or do they even have one?

 

If you were to ask me: "What comes into your mind when you think of Valiant?" my reply would be "speculation." That's pretty much all I remember about Valiant, even moreso than the stories. I remember people I've never seen before coming into the LCS asking for copies of Harbinger #1, Magnus #12, etc. I also remember stocking an inordinate number of new Valiant issues every Wednesday. Each week it seemed we received more and more copies of new titles like Geomancer or HARD Corps. For a while, the LCS where I worked was doing record business off of this Valiant boom. Until around late-1994 or early 1995 there was a sudden fallout and those speculators that regularly came in stopped showing up.

 

In fact, I remember one of the biggest spenders came into the LCS with 4 or 5 longboxes full of rare Valiant issues maybe 2-3 months prior to the fallout looking to sell. He wanted $3000 for the lot, which was OS valued at around $15k. I strongly recommended to the shop owner that buying them was a BAD idea. He eventually decided that it wasn't worth buying. I'd say less than 3 months later, speculators were forcefully trying to unload their books.

 

My question is: How much do you think Valiant led to the mid-90s comic crash? Do you think it had as much of an impact as say the Death of Superman comic glut that flooded the market with speculators? Or was it inconsequential?

 

 

so you bought Solar 4 off the rack...but Magnus 12 and Rai 3 werent available? Even though they came out like 4 months later?

 

And then you were working in a comic book store when you were 12? and the LCS owner was taking advice from a 12 year old?

Oh and valiant sucks and everyone should just go ahead and sell them so that they can get rid of them...no sense in paying to store those POS..

[lw99dds-migration]

I was 11-years-old when I bought my first Valiant comic. I remember going to my local comic shop and picking up a copy of Solar # 4, reading it, and loving it. I was quickly spending my weekly earnings buying whichever books I could afford. Alas, speculators drove the prices on many issues through the roof and I never picked up certain issues like Magnus #12 or Rai #3.

 

Anyway, I was curious as to what people thought was Valiant's lasting legacy, or do they even have one?

 

If you were to ask me: "What comes into your mind when you think of Valiant?" my reply would be "speculation." That's pretty much all I remember about Valiant, even moreso than the stories. I remember people I've never seen before coming into the LCS asking for copies of Harbinger #1, Magnus #12, etc. I also remember stocking an inordinate number of new Valiant issues every Wednesday. Each week it seemed we received more and more copies of new titles like Geomancer or HARD Corps. For a while, the LCS where I worked was doing record business off of this Valiant boom. Until around late-1994 or early 1995 there was a sudden fallout and those speculators that regularly came in stopped showing up.

 

In fact, I remember one of the biggest spenders came into the LCS with 4 or 5 longboxes full of rare Valiant issues maybe 2-3 months prior to the fallout looking to sell. He wanted $3000 for the lot, which was OS valued at around $15k. I strongly recommended to the shop owner that buying them was a BAD idea. He eventually decided that it wasn't worth buying. I'd say less than 3 months later, speculators were forcefully trying to unload their books.

 

My question is: How much do you think Valiant led to the mid-90s comic crash? Do you think it had as much of an impact as say the Death of Superman comic glut that flooded the market with speculators? Or was it inconsequential?

 

 

so you bought Solar 4 off the rack...but Magnus 12 and Rai 3 werent available? Even though they came out like 4 months later?

 

And then you were working in a comic book store when you were 12? and the LCS owner was taking advice from a 12 year old?

Oh and valiant sucks and everyone should just go ahead and sell them so that they can get rid of them...no sense in paying to store those POS..

 

So you can buy them all up? No way. I'm keeping my Valiants.

 

This is an interesting thread. I too couldn't afford to buy the early valiants back in the day. I've been buying up all the valiants I missed and I'm loving the stories.

 

No one can deny that valiant was important to the history of comics. For both good and bad reasons. They weren't the only ones responsible for the crash (I personally think marvel and dc are much more to blame...damn return of superman and eight million different types of bags for spiderman 1) but they were one of the few that actually had fun comic books. on sequart there is an article that makes a very compelling case for why harbinger 1 is the most important book of the 1990s

 

I think whatever you're take on valiant there are lots and lots of people out there who do love those characters and one day these books could be very sought after....except for turok 1 (no one will ever pay cover for that book again)

[joe_collector]

I think whatever you're take on valiant there are lots and lots of people out there who do love those characters and one day these books could be very sought after....

 

A dream is a wish your heart makes

When you're fast asleep

In dreams you lose your heartaches

Whatever you wish for, you keep

Have faith in your dreams and someday

Your rainbow will come smiling thru

No matter how your heart is grieving

If you keep on believing

the dream that you wish will come true

 

 

 

[lw99dds-migration]

I think whatever you're take on valiant there are lots and lots of people out there who do love those characters and one day these books could be very sought after....

 

A dream is a wish your heart makes

When you're fast asleep

In dreams you lose your heartaches

Whatever you wish for, you keep

Have faith in your dreams and someday

Your rainbow will come smiling thru

No matter how your heart is grieving

If you keep on believing

the dream that you wish will come true

 

 

 

 

Hey J A C K A S S...i said 'could'