Discussion on who killed Gwen Stacy - Spidey or Goblin?

[joe_collector]

Sure you can. Forgetting the "pre-determination" argument for the moment, say we are on a street corner and someone pulls a gun to shoot you in the heart. I push you out of the way of the bullet but unintentionally push you in front of a semi-truck. You are hit and killed.

 

What kind of comparison is that?

 

I'm talking about a "certain to die, no way to save me" situation already in progress, like falling out of an airplane with no parachute or being engulged in napalm. None of this "what if" drug dealer scenario, where a) don't know if the gun is loaded, b) if he was even going to kill you, or c) how good a shot he is, or even d) might the victim be skilled and save himself.

 

In your scenario, nothing is determined, and you'd need the gunman to have *already*shot you at 2 AM on a deserted street, and something like "I tossed you in the car, sped to the hospital, but got in an accident that killed all occupants" situation to be even remotely the same. Were you dead when he shot you in the heart and left you to die in an alley, or when I crashed the car?

 

To compare to Gwen's death scenario, you need to have something similar, like the "pushed out of an airplane without a parachute" one. At that point, if I threw out my parachute to help and accidentally knocked the person unconscious, I did NOT kill them.

[Spider-Variant]

I guess the question that we should be debating is "Was the cry-baby truly worth saving in the first place?" You know all that crazy Osborn stuff she was messed up in. I say good riddance.

 

PS I know someone has the answer to this question (or will research it), Just how many panels were shown with Gwen shedding tears? A 100?

[blowout]

I guess the question that we should be debating is "Was the cry-baby truly worth saving in the first place?" You know all that crazy Osborn stuff she was messed up in. I say good riddance.

 

PS I know someone has the answer to this question (or will research it), Just how many panels were shown with Gwen shedding tears? A 100?

 

Sacrilege!

[joe_collector]

You know all that crazy Osborn stuff she was messed up in. I say good riddance.

 

But that was an Alternate-JMS-Universe Gwen and not the actual SA and BA character we know and love.

[otherworldcomics]

Sure you can. Forgetting the "pre-determination" argument for the moment, say we are on a street corner and someone pulls a gun to shoot you in the heart. I push you out of the way of the bullet but unintentionally push you in front of a semi-truck. You are hit and killed.

 

What kind of comparison is that?

 

I'm talking about a "certain to die, no way to save me" situation already in progress, like falling out of an airplane with no parachute or being engulged in napalm. None of this "what if" drug dealer scenario, where a) don't know if the gun is loaded, b) if he was even going to kill you, or c) how good a shot he is, or even d) might the victim be skilled and save himself.

 

In your scenario, nothing is determined, and you'd need the gunman to have *already*shot you at 2 AM on a deserted street, and something like "I tossed you in the car, sped to the hospital, but got in an accident that killed all occupants" situation to be even remotely the same. Were you dead when he shot you in the heart and left you to die in an alley, or when I crashed the car?

 

To compare to Gwen's death scenario, you need to have something similar, like the "pushed out of an airplane without a parachute" one. At that point, if I threw out my parachute to help and accidentally knocked the person unconscious, I did NOT kill them.

 

Ah, that's some much [embarrassing lack of self control]. You want to make up all these other possible BS's. "Oh we don't know how good a shot he is, blah blah." No, my example was clear cut. He has a gun. He's going to shoot you in the heart. So from this the correction assumption is, 1) the gun is load, 2)he's shooting skills is enough to know he is going to shoot you in the heart, not the chest, not the lungs, not the shoulder, but in the heart. I didn't say anything about a drug dealer or anything else. Don't try to change the situation by adding all the other BS. My point is if someone shoots you in the heart, you're going to die which is "certain death". I move you out of the way instead and you get killed in a different manner. So yeah, I saved you from the bullet but you were killed in a different manner. The Goblin tossed her off the building. He didn't shoot her then toss her off. So physically, at that moment she was okay. She was going to die when she hit the water. Spidey shoots a web and her neck snaps. Since she didn't hit the ground then he didn't actually kill her. She was physically alive at that point. We can speculate whether her heart gave out or not but since its not stated then that's not a fact. The facts are 1) Goblin tosses Gwen off bridge 2) Spider-man shoots web to rescue her 3) If Spider-man doesn't rescue her, she has an extremely high probability of dying seconds after hitting water i.e. certain death 4) Spidey's web attaches to Gwen, suddenly stopping her fall, 5) Gwen's neck snaps 6) Gwen dies.

[joe_collector]

Ah, that's some much [embarrassing lack of self control]. You want to make up all these other possible BS's. "Oh we don't know how good a shot he is, blah blah." No, my example was clear cut. He has a gun. He's going to shoot you in the heart.

 

Hey, I'm just stating the obvious, that comparing "someone is going to shot you" is the same as "The Green Goblin is going to throw Gwen off a bridge".

 

Until the moment it actually happens, there are a million variables at work. You're taking a guess (unless you're a traveller from the future and KNOW his fate) that you are saving someone's life - you cannot know for sure (heck, one perp recently took 5-6 bullets from cops and still kept going), while Spidey knew 100% that if he did not act, Gwen would die. No question.

 

So please choose a better comparison next time.

[otherworldcomics]

Ah, that's some much [embarrassing lack of self control]. You want to make up all these other possible BS's. "Oh we don't know how good a shot he is, blah blah." No, my example was clear cut. He has a gun. He's going to shoot you in the heart.

 

Hey, I'm just stating the obvious, that comparing "someone is going to shot you" is the same as "The Green Goblin is going to throw Gwen off a bridge".

 

Until the moment it actually happens, there are a million variables at work. You're taking a guess (unless you're a traveller from the future and KNOW his fate) that you are saving someone's life - you cannot know for sure (heck, one perp recently took 5-6 bullets from cops and still kept going), while Spidey knew 100% that if he did not act, Gwen would die. No question.

 

So please choose a better comparison next time.

 

I can almost guarantee you he was not shot 5-6 times IN THE HEART and kept going so that is not the same either. But fine. If you want to play semantics then I'll state that he has shot a large caliber bullet and its traveling directly to your heart from less than ten feet with no wind, nothing to block the bullet, a clean direct line of sight.

[Scheradon]

Ah, that's some much [embarrassing lack of self control]. You want to make up all these other possible BS's. "Oh we don't know how good a shot he is, blah blah." No, my example was clear cut. He has a gun. He's going to shoot you in the heart.

 

Hey, I'm just stating the obvious, that comparing "someone is going to shot you" is the same as "The Green Goblin is going to throw Gwen off a bridge".

 

Until the moment it actually happens, there are a million variables at work. You're taking a guess (unless you're a traveller from the future and KNOW his fate) that you are saving someone's life - you cannot know for sure (heck, one perp recently took 5-6 bullets from cops and still kept going), while Spidey knew 100% that if he did not act, Gwen would die. No question.

 

So please choose a better comparison next time.

 

If she was heading towards the water, how can anyone know she was going to die 100%? One other interisting thing is that it's not like Spider-Man hadn't caught people with his web before, so what did he do differently here? Did he screw up somehow? Could he have done it differently?

 

Here's a scenario. You are 50 feet away from someone tied up to railroad tracks. A train is quickly approaching and there is no way for you to get to that person in time. You happen to have a rifle on you, so you decide to try and shoot the ropes that are holding the person down. Your shot goes a little awry and you end up blasting the person right between the eyes killing them seconds before the train plows them.

 

Who killed this person?

[blowout]

Ah, that's some much [embarrassing lack of self control]. You want to make up all these other possible BS's. "Oh we don't know how good a shot he is, blah blah." No, my example was clear cut. He has a gun. He's going to shoot you in the heart.

 

Hey, I'm just stating the obvious, that comparing "someone is going to shot you" is the same as "The Green Goblin is going to throw Gwen off a bridge".

 

Until the moment it actually happens, there are a million variables at work. You're taking a guess (unless you're a traveller from the future and KNOW his fate) that you are saving someone's life - you cannot know for sure (heck, one perp recently took 5-6 bullets from cops and still kept going), while Spidey knew 100% that if he did not act, Gwen would die. No question.

 

So please choose a better comparison next time.

 

If she was heading towards the water, how can anyone know she was going to die 100%? One other interisting thing is that it's not like Spider-Man hadn't caught people with his web before, so what did he do differently here? Did he screw up somehow? Could he have done it differently?

 

Here's a scenario. You are 50 feet away from someone tied up to railroad tracks. A train is quickly approaching and there is no way for you to get to that person in time. You happen to have a rifle on you, so you decide to try and shoot the ropes that are holding the person down. Your shot goes a little awry and you end up blasting the person right between the eyes killing them seconds before the train plows them.

 

Who killed this person?

 

Read the previously linked thread. We've been through all this before.

[Scheradon]

Ah, that's some much [embarrassing lack of self control]. You want to make up all these other possible BS's. "Oh we don't know how good a shot he is, blah blah." No, my example was clear cut. He has a gun. He's going to shoot you in the heart.

 

Hey, I'm just stating the obvious, that comparing "someone is going to shot you" is the same as "The Green Goblin is going to throw Gwen off a bridge".

 

Until the moment it actually happens, there are a million variables at work. You're taking a guess (unless you're a traveller from the future and KNOW his fate) that you are saving someone's life - you cannot know for sure (heck, one perp recently took 5-6 bullets from cops and still kept going), while Spidey knew 100% that if he did not act, Gwen would die. No question.

 

So please choose a better comparison next time.

 

If she was heading towards the water, how can anyone know she was going to die 100%? One other interisting thing is that it's not like Spider-Man hadn't caught people with his web before, so what did he do differently here? Did he screw up somehow? Could he have done it differently?

 

Here's a scenario. You are 50 feet away from someone tied up to railroad tracks. A train is quickly approaching and there is no way for you to get to that person in time. You happen to have a rifle on you, so you decide to try and shoot the ropes that are holding the person down. Your shot goes a little awry and you end up blasting the person right between the eyes killing them seconds before the train plows them.

 

Who killed this person?

 

Read the previously linked thread. We've been through all this before.

 

I know, I already had a long time ago and tried to give the short and blunt of it in my first post here. Since it seems that some want to rehash it again here, I figured I'd play along again.

[UnrulyAppendage]

If she was heading towards the water, how can anyone know she was going to die 100%? One other interisting thing is that it's not like Spider-Man hadn't caught people with his web before, so what did he do differently here? Did he screw up somehow? Could he have done it differently?

 

Hitting water at the speed she was going causes major damage. Do a belly flop from a 20 ft diving board. Imagine that at 200-300 ft.

 

Comic book physics can be a convienient thing. However, it looks like they were going with real world physics in this instance.

 

For Spidey to have been effective, he probably would have to shoot two webs, one supporting her head. Or, shoot his web and move into another position and gradually break the fall by causing her to swing instead of stopping her from directly above.

 

Another thing he could have done is control the rate of his webbing release. Once he caught her, he could gradually put the breaks on the descent. The sudden stop is what broke her neck. I don't know if he can do that with his webbing though.

[Scheradon]

If she was heading towards the water, how can anyone know she was going to die 100%? One other interisting thing is that it's not like Spider-Man hadn't caught people with his web before, so what did he do differently here? Did he screw up somehow? Could he have done it differently?

 

Hitting water at the speed she was going causes major damage. Do a belly flop from a 20 ft diving board. Imagine that at 200-300 ft.

 

Comic book physics can be a convienient thing. However, it looks like they were going with real world physics in this instance.

 

For Spidey to have been effective, he probably would have to shoot two webs, one supporting her head. Or, shoot his web and move into another position and gradually break the fall by causing her to swing instead of stopping her from directly above.

 

Another thing he could have done is control the rate of his webbing release. Once he caught her, he could gradually put the breaks on the descent. The sudden stop is what broke her neck. I don't know if he can do that with his webbing though.

 

I guess that's the wierd thing. They do so many feats and acts that defy physics in comics and then take this one instance and stick to the laws of physics rather faithfully.

 

I bet it wouldn't be hard for someone to find an instance in a comic where someone fell a great distance, landed in water and was ok, or find many an instance where Spider-Man slung his web and somehow gently saved someone from falling. Suddenly in this issue, everything gets real technical.

[otherworldcomics]

Well, I was planning on dropping the arguement since it has been done to death, but got bogged down in the arguement of rescue from a "certain death" scenario. Whatever the example, the answer is yes, a person can be rescued from a situation where he would have died and yet your actions unintentionally lead to his death by other means. Which is the case here. As we all know the editors wanted to get rid of the Gwen character for the more popular Mary Jane character. Otherwise they could have brought her back in a thousand different ways after this seen. Heck, look at Jean Grey. How many times has she died? 20? 21? . Anyway ya slice it, Spider-man was ultimately responsible for her death. Either by the obvious "snap" of the neck or by even dating her, or even fighting the Goblin, or even because he became Spider-man to begin with. Regardless, the writers and artists must have done a fantastic job for us to still be talking about it 30 years later. Props to them!

[helionaut]

There's a famous situation in both philosphy and law of responsibility versus culpability. It was paraphrased in the movie "Magnolia." A guy tries to commit suicide by jumping off the top of his 10-story apartment building, which most certainly would kill anyone who goes straight down to the pavement. On the 5th floor a husband and wife are arguing, the husband pulls out a shotgun and fires out the window just as the suicidal guy passes it, killing him instantly. Has the man committed suicide? Has the husband committed murder (or manslaughter or other such crime)? If the guy hadn't jumped, he'd still be alive. If the guy had chosen another spot to jump from, he'd have lived the extra split second. If the husband hadn't pulled out the gun or fired at that exact spot or time, he wouldn't have ben involved in the death. Legally, I think the answer is the latter because one man died by the other man's hand, but, philosophically, the guy was dead the moment he stepped off the roof. I think this applies to the Gwen Stacy situation because although she was physically still alive the moment Spidey webbed her, and it's not really disputable that the whiplash snapped her neck which was the direct cause of her death, she was only an instant away from dying anyway from deceleration trauma. A fall from the top of the GW bridge or whichever it was would kill you 999 times out of 1000, as countless jumpers from lower heights have proved. So who was responsible, and who was culpable? I think in broadest terms, you have to say GG was both. Spidey was trying his best to save her, and though he failed in the most terrible way, his failure in no way altered the ultimate outcome of the event. Of course, if Peter Parker hadn't become Spider-man, the chances of Gwen Stacy getting involved with the Green Goblin become practically nil (though we now know she apparently got something out of it), so it all comes back to Spidey anyway.

[Spider-Variant]

Not sure why but the old Gwen Death post will not open for me. I can open any other post exept that one. No error, just a normal forum screen with everything but the posts.

 

?

 

The reason I initially asked is because an important piece of evidence has been found and I would like to share it in that forum.

 

Okay, what ever happened to this newly discovered piece of evidence?

[That Ron Dude]

The Hulk. The Hulk is definitely stronger.