What A Bargain...

[moloch]

Just to play Devil's Advocate (and I'm sure it's been discussed before, I just can't find where) - with trimming and pressing if you hold one book next to another and can't tell the differece is there one? Is the Problem with the alteration or with the nondisclosure?

[Aman619]

thats basically just an argument for professionalism in restoration. The problem is BOTH restoration AND non-disclosure. Buyers want to know that the comic they are buying is in the condition stated (or on the label) since restored books are worth far less than the price of a non-restored book. The valuing system in comic books is built upon the grade of the comic. You cannot be allowed to change the grade after damage has been done to it SOLELY to increase its PERCEIVED value.

[joe_collector]

Bottom-line: Exclusive pressing is a by-product of the CGC phenomenon and a practice not done in the bad old days prior to CGC.

 

I agree, and it's quite logical when you think about it. The main reason for pressing being so rampant these days is MONEY. Comic prices have skyrocketed and speculators have driven the $$$ for each 0.2 grade increment to insane levels, none of which were factors in the "old days".

 

Without CGC, exclusive pressing businesses like Matt's would not be in operation, that is for certain.

[joe_collector]

Just to play Devil's Advocate (and I'm sure it's been discussed before, I just can't find where) - with trimming and pressing if you hold one book next to another and can't tell the differece is there one? Is the Problem with the alteration or with the nondisclosure?

 

Both.

 

You see collectible hobbies/businesses like comic books operate on the belief of finite supplies and at least estimates of scarcity in grade. Even a common book like Hulk 181 adheres to these principles, although demand is high enough to absorb the current number of books.

 

But this is very thin ice, and if say, some new or improved technology (pressing, trimming, cleaning, etc.) were to upset that equilibrium, and infuse an artificial number of 'full potential" HG copies to the "open market" then the whole deal may come down like a house of cards.

 

That's the real danger of pressing; that it will continue to artificially raise supplies, devalue current HG copies, and lead to a steady erosion in the back issue market.

[PedigreeMan]

Don't know why most collectors tend to assume the majority of this type of work is done to only GA books.

 

The original "Golden Age" comment was for PRE-CGC comics, and I think everyone realizes that most HG key SA and BA CGC books have been manipulated.

 

JC;

 

Don't be sucked in by Steve B's continual argument that pressing has always been an ongoing phenomenon in the bad old days prior to CGC. This blanket statement is used only to justify CGC's current stance on pressing, and rings true ONLY if you apply certain key qualifications to it.

 

Pressing was indeed performed on books in the bad old days, but only as a finishing touch in association with other more detectable restoration activities. I don't know of anybody or have ever heard of exclusive pressing in the bad old days since there was just no money to be made from this practice.

 

Collectors in the bad old days paid a lot more attention to defects such as QP and off-centre pages which could be seen from across the convention floor. Much less attention was paid to the barely visible defects such as miniscule non-colour breaking creases which could only be seen by holding the book up to a certain angle to the light. With the advent of CGC, this criteria was changed all around and resulted in pressing becoming the cottage industry it is today.

 

Bottom-line: Exclusive pressing is a by-product of the CGC phenomenon and a practice not done in the bad old days prior to CGC.

 

Lou's response needs to be turned into a sigline.

 

If everyone jumping into this pressing debate understood the above four paragraphs, we'd probably be a lot closer to reaching a consensus on it.

[Red Hook]

And in contrast....

 

In Nelson's opinion there has never been a better, safer, and more fruitful time to collect or invest in comics than now. "We commend CGC for their decision to put the collectors' best interests first. CGC will continue to be our first and only choice for third party certification. They have set the standard for everyone to follow, and their dedication to professionalism and consistency over the past six years has been nothing short of remarkable. Together, I think CGC and Classics Incorporated are capable of bringing an unbeatable combination of service and product to the collecting community in the coming years," commented Nelson.

...has there ever been a paragraph ever written featuring such badly written, dishonest, intelligence-insulting, self-serving baloney as this one?

 

And Pooper Scoop served it up steaming hot to collectors as if it were filet mignon!

 

Perhaps Scoop should consider writing their material as if it weren't directed towards brain-damaged 8-year-olds. It really shows what they think of their readership.

 

Red

[burntboy]

the reality is that we're probably talking about beautiful books somewhere in the 9.0 - 9.4 range that have a non color breaking crease, a wrinkle, an impact crease, a thumbnail indent, a wave, whatever.........

 

Have you forgotten about the Boy Comics #17 (4.0 to 9.0)?

 

Jim

 

of course not, but it doesn't bolster an argument to rely on a single instance or so of major upgrades.

 

i doubt that there are very many books in existence that have the "perfect storm" set of defects that could get raised from a 4.0 to a 9.0, and still be considered unrestored............

[Scheradon]

And in contrast....

 

In Nelson's opinion there has never been a better, safer, and more fruitful time to collect or invest in comics than now. "We commend CGC for their decision to put the collectors' best interests first. CGC will continue to be our first and only choice for third party certification. They have set the standard for everyone to follow, and their dedication to professionalism and consistency over the past six years has been nothing short of remarkable. Together, I think CGC and Classics Incorporated are capable of bringing an unbeatable combination of service and product to the collecting community in the coming years," commented Nelson.

...has there ever been a paragraph ever written featuring such badly written, dishonest, intelligence-insulting, self-serving baloney as this one?

 

And Pooper Scoop served it up steaming hot to collectors as if it were filet mignon!

 

Perhaps Scoop should consider writing their material as if it weren't directed towards brain-damaged 8-year-olds. It really shows what they think of their readership.

 

Red

 

This sort of sounds as if they just forged a beautiful new partnership. Interesting that PCS shuts down and suddenly there's this statement comming from Nelson that sounds more like the spiel you hear from a corporate merger.

[lou_fine]

And in contrast....

 

In Nelson's opinion there has never been a better, safer, and more fruitful time to collect or invest in comics than now. "We commend CGC for their decision to put the collectors' best interests first. CGC will continue to be our first and only choice for third party certification. They have set the standard for everyone to follow, and their dedication to professionalism and consistency over the past six years has been nothing short of remarkable. Together, I think CGC and Classics Incorporated are capable of bringing an unbeatable combination of service and product to the collecting community in the coming years," commented Nelson.

...has there ever been a paragraph ever written featuring such badly written, dishonest, intelligence-insulting, self-serving baloney as this one?

 

And Pooper Scoop served it up steaming hot to collectors as if it were filet mignon!

 

Perhaps Scoop should consider writing their material as if it weren't directed towards brain-damaged 8-year-olds. It really shows what they think of their readership.

 

Red

 

This sort of sounds as if they just forged a beautiful new partnership. Interesting that PCS shuts down and suddenly there's this statement comming from Nelson that sounds more like the spiel you hear from a corporate merger.

 

Maybe we should send Esquire off again to question the folks up at Diamond/Gemstone about this latest announcement similar to their new difinition of restoration in the 2006 Guide.

 

You never know, maybe we'll be able to get another retraction from the big boys at Diamond.

[FlyingDonut]

I've never had a problem with pressing, as long as its disclosed. Same with restoration, for that matter. I have several nice Fiction Houses that would be nicer if the faint spine roll (endemic to late 40s Fiction Houses) would be flattened out.

 

I'm not sure what the issue is - anti-pressing or anti-not disclosing? Of course you should disclose if work has been done on the book. That's pretty much a no brainer.

[Scheradon]

I've never had a problem with pressing, as long as its disclosed. Same with restoration, for that matter. I have several nice Fiction Houses that would be nicer if the faint spine roll (endemic to late 40s Fiction Houses) would be flattened out.

 

I'm not sure what the issue is - anti-pressing or anti-not disclosing? Of course you should disclose if work has been done on the book. That's pretty much a no brainer.

 

99% of pressing is done to squeeze extra $$$ out of books and not for the average joe who somehow wants to flip $25 plus shipping back and forth, so he can google at his pancaked book in his own personal collection.

 

It's generally all about increasing the value of a book to eak out those extra dollars and 99% of sellers will never disclose that it has been done for the same money grubbing impulse that drove them to have the book pressed in the first place. They know disclosing it risks them losing money on a potential sale.

 

So to me, they basically go hand in hand. One's in the bank robbing it and the other's outside revving the engine of the getaway car.

[divad]

I've never had a problem with pressing, as long as its disclosed. Same with restoration, for that matter. I have several nice Fiction Houses that would be nicer if the faint spine roll (endemic to late 40s Fiction Houses) would be flattened out.

 

I'm not sure what the issue is - anti-pressing or anti-not disclosing? Of course you should disclose if work has been done on the book. That's pretty much a no brainer.

 

I'm anti-pressing - it's kind of like "bondo" on a sports car . . . generally not disclosed, just glossed over

 

I think it ultimately harms the book, and why mess up books that are already quite nice?

 

I think dealers that resort to pressing to squeeze out a grade should get real jobs

[Red Hook]

 

I think dealers that resort to pressing to squeeze out a grade should get real jobs

 

....but true!

[joe_collector]

I think dealers that resort to pressing to squeeze out a grade should get real jobs

 

That's sig-line material.

 

And in the long run, might also prove very prophetic.

[lou_fine]

I've never had a problem with pressing, as long as its disclosed. Same with restoration, for that matter. I have several nice Fiction Houses that would be nicer if the faint spine roll (endemic to late 40s Fiction Houses) would be flattened out.

 

I'm not sure what the issue is - anti-pressing or anti-not disclosing? Of course you should disclose if work has been done on the book. That's pretty much a no brainer.

 

FD;

 

I also agree with your general viewpoints. I don't have a problem with pressing, trimming, or any form of restoration as long as it is fully disclosed. I generally feel that if you own a book, you can do with it whatever you want as long as you disclose this fact upon resale.

 

Unfortunately, we live in the real world where the express purpose seems to be to squeeze and trim out extra dollars through undetectable artificial enhancements and not disclosing this sordid activity. This has resulted in a lot of anti-pressing sentiment since pressing and non-disclosure is virtually synonmous and goes hand in hand with one another in today's marketplace.

 

Although I don't have a general problem with restoration on a book, I must admit I do have certain reservations. I feel that although unique books such as the Church copies or some of the other major pedigrees may belong to a particular collector/speculator for a short period of time, in the long run, they are a part of the heritage of our hobby and actually belongs in part to all of us.

 

In this sense, I do have concerns with restoration being conducted on these books in a short-term selfish attempt to squeeze out a few moe dollars. Now, if you wanted to do this on your latest newsstand book, Spawn #1, or even a DD #168, you are more than welcome to hack away, get Rikishi's big butt to press down on your book, or what have you, as long as you leave the truely unique treasures in our hobby pure and untouched.

[awe4one]

of course not, but it doesn't bolster an argument to rely on a single instance or so of major upgrades.

 

There are other examples of comics getting more than one grade jumps posted right here on this Forum. The Boy Comics is worst of the bunch...that we've seen to date...

 

I thought we put this fallacy to bed months ago...

 

Jim

[Aman619]

?r?w?g?s????d??ts??rt???s???s?d???r??ts?pc??g?p??ts?ly??f?w?m?rs???

[awe4one]

?r?w?g?s????d??ts??rt???s???s?d???r??ts?pc??g?p??ts?ly??f?w?m?rs???

 

OK...

 

Could you translate this into English for the rest of us?

 

Jim

[Aman619]

I finished typing and then looked and saw it all came out in Japanese when the Mac somehow switched to another international keyboard and font. Rather and retype whatever worthless comment I was making, I thought it looked cool and let it fly!.

[Ze-man]

the reality is that we're probably talking about beautiful books somewhere in the 9.0 - 9.4 range that have a non color breaking crease, a wrinkle, an impact crease, a thumbnail indent, a wave, whatever.........

 

Harry;

 

What you are describing here is exactly what I now look for in a HG book. High grade books with just a single tiny defect that can be fixed by pressing to me is a good idication that the book has probably not been pressed.

 

I also now avoid cetain dealers such as CLink, Heritage, Pedigree, etc. since a large part of their reputation seems to be built around questionable HG books similar to how Ewert's reputation was built before with his HG books.

 

My motto is: if you don't want to get burn, then it's best not to step into the middle of a fire and assume the flames will touch everybody else except for you.

 

Ditto, I will say Ditto again... "Ditto"

 

Harry I think you are spot on in your assesment of what books are really being targeted. And Lou, as you said. "play with fire".. well you know the rest.

 

I was trying to avoid posting in yet another pressing thread, but this recent "announcement" had me rolling. Almost to a point of laughing instead of being upset. The average joe will just see $$$ signs when they read things like this. I assume that is who they geared this campaign towards. The countless, semi educated collectors looking to cash in on their "investments" In a way that goes beyond just selling them for a profit, but rather "improving" upon their investment through a process that cannot be traced. What's not to like.

 

These are the type of types of things that made my decision to buy only mid grade comics, to read and collect very easy. I am learning to love the flaws on a book more and more. They are not "flaws" , but rather "character"

 

Not to say chasing HG comics wont always be a worthy sport enjoyed by many, it is just a sport that has lost it's luster. Cause I just dont know anymore what I am actually looking at.

 

Ze-