Platinum Comics are not Comic Books

[action1kid]

Famous Funnies #1 being the "first

 

There is alot of confusion between Famous Funnies #1 and Famous Funnies Series 1

Famous funnies series 1 was the first book to come out [it was actually the 1st modern comicbook[1934] ever sold]. It was sold in chain stores. After its initial sucess ,Famous Funnies #1 out. It was the 1st comicbook[in the modern format] to be sold on a newsstand. They are indeed two different books.

[Aman619]

Im always confused myself between the two, the Mutt+Jeff golfing cover and the one of images separated into polygons (mine) but when posting I was referring to the FIRST one, regardless of its full proper name. got it?

[dgillock]

As some of you may know, I was involved in the production of the "Comic Book Ages: Defining The Eras" article for in Overstreet #34. One of the things that the piece attempted to suggest is that it is difficult to pin-down a particular book or year as the defining starting point for a specific era- Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze, etc. Instead, the article proposed that it is better to view the metallic ages of comics as a "spectrum", involving a progressive, industry-wide progression from one era to another.

 

There is no particular moment or issue where you can say one book is "Platinum" and another is "Gold", rather you need to take an inclusive view of the industry as a whole and consider how it transformed over a period of time. A single book can hypothetically be "Very Gold" or "Very Platinum", and one should never dismiss the value or weight that a particular comic has accumulated over time, but it's counter-productive to try and set a single issue as the be-all/end-all start or end of an era.

 

We, as collectors, like to talk about a book like Action #1 as being the start of the "True Golden-Age"- but in historical terms, the argument doesn't hold weight. The importance of any particular issue is not realized until years or maybe decades after it was released. In a "What If?" kind of universe, we could have just as easily now be discussing the same book as another Platinum-Era book reprinting previously published material. Remember that S&S spent a good deal of time selling Supes as a newspaper strip before a publisher with a lot of foresight put it out as original material. How would we rate Superman in the overall history of comicbooks if his first appearance had been in a sydicated strip and not in the pages of a magazine released by a publisher taking a chance on issuing new, and therefore cheaper material?

 

The debate over how much Platinum, and Victorian Age "comics" have to do with later incarnations of the medium seems very similar to questions like "what was the first Silver-Age comic", or what "Era" are we in now? It's very appealling to the collector to designate a single book as being an absolute turning-point in history, but I believe that a conscientious historian has to have a broader, more inclusive view. Dismissing what are currently referred to as Victorian and Platinum-Age comics from the historical spectrum of the industry simply because they are structurally unfamiliar seems to me to be a very limited view of the medium.

[ft88]

I believe that a conscientious historian has to have a broader, more inclusive view. Dismissing what are currently referred to as Victorian and Platinum-Age comics from the historical spectrum of the industry simply because they are structurally unfamiliar seems to me to be a very limited view of the medium.

 

and from blb

 

What i find boring in comics is concentrating on how few spine bends some of your CGC slabbed "treasures" contain - 9.8. 9.6. 9.4, 9.2, etc

 

Anyway, i applaud this subject matter being discussed on these boards, however, the naysayers are simply showing their ignorance of a sequential comics tradition in the USA which stretches back over 160 years.

 

Noted how those who have a serious interest in Platinum and Victorian era collectibles sort of poo poo the more established comic book collecting market.

It smells a little of snobbery, similar to how Gold bashes Silver bashes Copper bashes Modern.

 

My view point has never been about historical interest or value, simply that they don't belong in the comic book genre. Sure there is grey area, but there are some pretty clear lines in my viewpoint. By all means look down your glasses at the comicbooks themselves as being inferior. I do that all the time myself to the Modern age books. But while you look down upon the collectors, check over your shoulders at the Fine Art museum curators laughing at all the funny book folks.

 

BTW I am not a historian, nor am I educated as much on the Victorian or Platinum collectibles. I also don't collect a multitude of categories of comic books. The point I hope to have made is that they simply don't belong in the Comic Book Price guide.

 

Also, I thought that was an interesting "What If" about Superman appearing first in a newspaper. We can look at the Disney characters to see how that applies both in a historical sense and in value since they appeared in cartoons, toys, newspapers, and books prior to any comic book appearances.

 

Another aspect of being a comic book is the tie to childhood. A huge appeal of the comicbook collecting is that tie to the past. I suppose thats true of all antiques and historical items but there is something a little stronger with the comic books. I think the lack of "Wow" factor and overall disinterest by the majority of the comicbook collectors in the pre-1930s era is exactly this.

 

That doesn't define a comic book, but it plays a role in knowing it when you see it. Plenty of grey area but if I could set the standard I would list the grey area books in about a 2 page perview in Overstreet and include the top 3 contenders as first comic book. Then create a seperate guide for the comic strip work for pre 1930s stuff.

[Earl Davis]

I would just like to say that the Platinum Age Promotion comic sections are the main reasons I continue to get Overstreet.

 

Post 1935 comics are very well covered by the Krause Standard catalog of comics which provides more comprehensive detail than OPG such as individual cover dates, cover prices, actual sales data against every issue etc.

 

It’s the Platinum and Promotional sections that are the differentiator for me that still makes Oversteet shine.

 

I would be one collector less buying the guide if the Platinum section was dropped. I share the confusion of those about why BLB were included in a comic guide but as they don't take up much room I don't really care that much.

 

Earl.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Um, i do not poo-poo at all on the more established long running comics collector market of comicobooks in the 1930s up range. I have made my living full time buying and selling comicbooks of all eras since 1970 - the year i graduated from high school.

 

My advent into the world of mail order comics dealing began with my first ad in RBCC #47 Oct 1966 when i was 14 and i set up a table of comics for sale and trade at the first comicon i attended which was in Houston Texas in June 1967, i turned 15 at that show.

 

During those early years i devoured books like THE GREAT COMIC BOOK HEROES (i got that one for Christmas 1965), as well as Sheridan's COMICS AND THEIR CREATORS by martin Sheridan 1942, CARTOON CAVALCADE by Thomas Craven 1944, THE COMICS by Coulton Waugh 1947 and COMIC ART IN AMERICA by Stephen Becker 1959. There were hardly any other reference books available to a comics fans to read back then.

 

MANY MANY myths got started because of those three seminal early comic shistory books.

 

The main one being mentioned here being the supposed invention of the "first" comicbooks with Funnies On Parade, Famous Funnies, etc coming out of Eastern Color under the supposed auspices of MC Gaines. That is simply plain wrong. The proof is there, You do not have to like it, but you cannot deny it.

 

The 1960s, 70s, 80s saw a plethora of comics history books get published, many of them building on the supposed foundations of the four earlier books i mention which were widely available in public libraries back in the day. Plus we must include SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT by Fred Wertham 1954 as a text some used for their view points of comics,

 

Decades later, in the late 1990s, i was introduced to the concept of a burgeoning comics industry in the 1800s. it blew my brain.

 

I then began a quest to learn more. Not necessarily to collect this stuff, but i set the record straight. Ten years later, our history books have been rewritten.

 

A 1990s effort i discovered is THE AMERICAN COMIC BOOK 1884-1939 by Brit Denis Gifford, an index of mainly his collection which became one of the initial basis for contructing the first Platinum section - and i have been building it from there ever since. There is still a ways to go uncovering the early American comics industry.

 

To suggest that comics material before Famous Funnies has no place in Overstreet flies in the face of having a price index reference is, well, they say one should be nice when one has nothing nice to say or think, so i will not go down that path.

 

For the record, many of the Cupples & Leon 10x10 comicbooks form the 1920s have been listed in Overstreet since the early 1970s. Comicbooks such as Bringing Up Father, Barney Google, Mutt & Jeff, Tillie the Toiler, Winnie Winkle, etc.

 

There is a reason why my Modern Era history article THE AMERICAN COMIC BOOK 1929-PRESENT which delves into THE FUNNIES from Dell and Eastern, the oil company giveaways starting with Standard Oil Comics in late 1932, the three known Humor comicbooks, the mid 30s 2nd beginnings output from Eastern Color (Funnies On Parade, famous Funnies, Skippy's Own Book of Comics, etc), Comic Cuts seguing into Wheeler-Nicholson's New Fun, etc has as its sub-title "The Modern Comics Magazine Supplants The Earlier Formats."

 

Deflation brought on by the Great Depression allowed prices to fall so 68 pages for 10 cents became the initial norm. A winning format was evolved which stuck with us for decades.

 

But to think I look down on later 1930s up comics as something not to enjoy and collect means you do not know me.

 

ECs, Barks, LB and Jack Cole, Mayer, Krigstein, Crandall, Frazetta, Williamson, Torres, Wolverton, Wood, Severin, elder, Kurtzman, Kirby, Ditko, Kubert, Adams, Wrightson, Crumb, Shelton, Corben, Rick Griffin and several thousand other creators runs my comics wagon. Always has, always will.

[BLBcomics-migration]

thanx Bob. as always, great stuff. and truly, Sturgeons law IS The Law especially pertaining to our beloved comicbooks. Its always been true. Out of every weeks pile of new books, 1 or 2 stand out from the rest, and then, looking back over a decades's worth that shortlist gets refined even shorter to a mere handful.

 

You said above that the first USA Oldbuc is a reprint of a reprint that was originally created in France? What is it about anyway? My sense was that he was an American Frontiersman, or at least that it was an American story. Does it take place in Paris?

 

As for "vacuum intelligent design" while i understand what you mean, no creation ever in ANY field has ever been that purely "divine" in origin. All technological and artistic invention has used what canme before. Comics are certianly just one more example.

 

As for Famous Funnies, it seems clearer every year that it was selected from a scant knoeledge of the medium's history with probably more than a little bias to it. By that I mean, that whoever was involved with selecting it as the Grail Number One of Comics was in the orbit of Gaines, Wheeler, Lebowitz etc etc and pooled only the reminiscences and stories THEY all were telling.... so its no surprise that the distinction fell to an object well within THEIR purvue and personal experiences..

 

You agree?

 

OK, i find i did not reply directly to these queries.

 

1) Oldbuck is about a fellow who goes off searching for a wife. He encounters rivals whom he vanquishes, he argues with some monks whom he buries alive, his dog pees on the church door step. - i have a few copies left of a special reprint facsimile done a few years ago for sale for $30 each post paid

 

Oldbuck is not USA-centric in the slightest. It wa sfirst published in Genva Switzerland in 1828 and took 14 years to find its way to its USA first printing.

 

2) What makes Oldbuck in its 1828 Geneva first printing techo-important is it was the first time stone lithography was used to print a comicbook. See the article i co-authored in COMIC ART #3 done a few years ago for a wealth of data on this

 

3) The Famous Funnies "first comic book" myth got its main start with THE COMICS by Coulton Waugh 1947. I agree that the orbit you mention had a great deal to do with this myth evolving over the years. Nothing is ever so neat and tidy in its origins

 

best

 

Robert Beerbohm

[ft88]

Robert,

 

Can you provide links or make available some of these articles?

[action1kid]

Im always confused myself between the two, the Mutt+Jeff golfing cover and the one of images separated into polygons (mine) but when posting I was referring to the FIRST one, regardless of its full proper name. got it?

 

 

Got it !

[BLBcomics-migration]

Robert,

 

Can you provide links or make available some of these articles?

 

Most of my stuff is not on line as of yet - my oldest daughter Kati wants to play with the raw data and pics to put them onto my web site - so, maybe pretty soon in the next few months

 

COMIC ART #3 has a huge in-depth piece by myself, Doug Wheeler, amd Leonardo de Sa on many aspects of the origin of the comics industry in America. It is a siste rmag to ILLUSTRATION, both comes out of St Louis, will provde email address to the publisher as my copies are not handy right now.

 

My Overtsreet pieces have evolved over the past 10 years since #27 29 onwards - as they have grown, some stuff has been deleted and other data has taken its place.

 

I have tons of research data, scans of 1800s comic strips, and quite a few of the original publications themselves which have not seen reprinting as of yet. There is not enough room in Overstreet to paint a full picture visually, a sthat is where the proof of the pudding is going to convince nay-sayers that the 1800s comic strip industry was vibrant and way mor eocmmon than most of us realize today - except those of us who have spent the time an denergy to track down to look at it all.

 

A year or so back, SCOOP ran a scanned reprint of Obadiah Oldbuck which lives in their archives. I will try to find out the dates it ran, 8 or so pages a week for a month or so, and that way any of you interested can see for yourselves it is a one long 40 page comic book story

 

And keep in mind Rodolphe Töpffer drew up 7 comic book stories published in his life time - and 5 of them have never before been printed in America, nor translated. I have been working ad hoc in the recent past with Art Spiegelman and Chris Ware about Artie's MAUS publisher coming out with a complete translated volume of these Töpffer comic books.

 

Töpffer improved with each one which was published. I have them all in 1800s French editions

 

best

 

Robert Beerbohm

[Aman619]

thanx Bob!

[jbcomicbox]

Im always confused myself between the two, the Mutt+Jeff golfing cover and the one of images separated into polygons (mine) but when posting I was referring to the FIRST one, regardless of its full proper name. got it?

 

The end of confusion

[Theagenes]

[HouseofComics.Com]

I see a lot of my favorite posters have been contributing here. I'm enjoying the thoughts and the shared scans.

 

one more thing. Up til now, we've been getting all this Platinum stuff for free, so why not include it. But as you all read, Gemstone now faces decisions on what to eliminate because of rising prices. This year they made some questionable calls in the WRONG direction. So, lets help them make the RIGHT decision going forward.

 

I think this is a good summation by Aman. As I said in a PM to someone tonight, I really wonder what's going to happen to the OPG format not just over the next edition or two (as they've now started to make choices about what to cut) but in the future. Maybe they can fiddle a bit with moving parts to the web but it doesn't overcome the fact that there are tons of new comics coming out every year. It's relentless! Consider that they can't really lower the font any further either.

 

What happens ten years from now with thousands of new entries? Also, it seems like there are a few more ads this year and last. I think ebay sellers are starting to advertise in the guide so it's not like the ad pages are going away. Maybe ten years from now we'll have two guides. One with 1961 and up comics and one with everything before 1961.

 

Marc

[Aman619]

did I say that? mmn. pretty clever! seriously, lets hope the cut off will be 1936, not 1961!!

[Timulty]

Perhaps, Overstreet should break the guide up into chunks. Platinum and Golden Age. Silver and Bronze Age. Copper and up. And lastly, one separate book for Exotics "BLBs, strips, etc." A general grading guide could be included in a section on each with a recommendation to buy the regular grading guide.

 

Yeah, I know. This means, OS would have to spend more money. We would have to spend more money and it would probably be too confusing. But my one argument against the guide, as it stands, is that it does have more information than I need. I really don't need to know prices on Silver and up books plus BLBs etc. Granted, I am probably in the minority here.

[agro23]

OS should divide into two guides: Modern Comics and Vintage Comics. The dividing point could be the black and white glut of the late 80's. That will leave plenty of room in both books; room for the Modern to expand into the future and room for the Vintage to expand into the past.

[mica]

Perhaps, Overstreet should break the guide up into chunks. Platinum and Golden Age. Silver and Bronze Age. Copper and up. And lastly, one separate book for Exotics "BLBs, strips, etc." A general grading guide could be included in a section on each with a recommendation to buy the regular grading guide.

Put yourself in the NON collectors shoes for a minute.

Many of our collections will end up in the hands of family members upon our demise. The price guide needs to remain easy to understand and easy to look up information. For example Jonah Hex.

A Collector has died and now the wife has to go through the books. She arrives at a copy of Jonah Hex #1. If a price guide book were divided into AGES then she might be getting the wrong information about that book. (especially if only one series is shown in that volume). As it is now, you'll notice that there's 2 identical series and the person must determine which one is which by the date.

 

Sure we regular collectors that have been at this for years can tell the difference with a glance at the book and have the knowledge that there are two Jonah Hex #1's but the average Non Collector won't.

 

And Jonah Hex isn't some anomaly. This same title same-character stuff happens from time to time. Look at Bugs Bunny-DC comics, and the other Bugs Bunny-DC comics. (By the way it's not the guides fault on that...it's DC's for not coming up with a different title to distinguish which is which.)

 

If the price guide is not informative and easy to determine by Non Collectors then selling off a collection will be too much of a hassle and that nice collection that you've spent so much time on will be gathered up and taken to the LCS.

 

The guy behind the counter will offer $50 bucks for the whole shebang and it might seem good to the person who doesn't want the hassle.

At this point the original collector will roll over in the grave.

 

I'm against the idea of seperating the guide into ages. It would interupt numerous titles and numerous runs.

The following guides would then need to say "continued from..."

 

Ten years from now the Guide Books should come in a two volume set.

A through L

M through Z. Then they could satisfy this need to have two design covers. which would save us the trouble of having to determine which cover to get.

[BLBcomics-migration]

What i have told most all the Ovestreet people the last few years is make the OPG the size of the Hake's Guide - wider - and make it thicker, make the cover price $35 - and keep all the data inclusive, one reference book

 

I like being able to look up all kinds of stuff, including BLBs and pop up books, in one volume

 

I do not anticipate any more growth in the Plat price index, but the Victorian era price index will be growing some more - maybe 4 more pages in the 2007 Guide, then a leveling off of more page count growth for a few years after that

 

What was dropped from this year's Guide that is making some of you upset?

 

robert beerbohm

[mica]

What was dropped from this year's Guide that is making some of you upset?

 

robert beerbohm

Go look up the grading definitions. Then report back.