Where will the original comic art market be in 20 years? Predictions anyone?

[Mister Trent]

Welcome back, KK.

[LuckyCantor-migration]

OK,....I guess Ill be banned again now,...,..but I wanted to set the record straight,..and if Im going to be banned for being me,...I figured, F it!,...if thats the way its gotta be.

 

 

Frankly, you have been considerate, interesting, and not the least bit insulting in this incarnation. I don't see any reason to ban you in this screen name.

 

I have not seen any of the things that got you banned before so I would oppose banning you now.

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

I NEVER deserved to get banned in the first place.

 

I am one of the mosy dynamic, thought-provoking, insightful posters here. You may not know it,..but I am responsible for the OA forum (although no one will give me credit look back and you will see, I pestered Steve Borock for it).

 

 

Anytime I talk about the OA market vs. Comic Market I am deemed a heretic because I am pre-occupied with $$$ value,...and thats deemed a sin here. The truth is,..I love $$$ and I love OA,....the two arent mutually exclusive to me,....but for most people here,....its almost like selling wares in the temple.

 

The TRUTH is,..alotta the comic collectors dont like me because they are fearful that OA will one day be 'The Real Show'...and they thus knock my personality and say 'we dont like the way you communicate your thoughts',...'your a used car salesman',..etc,....The truth is ...alotta people just dont like MY PERSONALITY,..

 

but is that really a reason to be banned from a community which should be inclusive and tolerant??,..Heh?

 

KK

 

* IN A NUT-SHELL: The comic people hate me because I am prophetizing the death of their hobby and the OA people dont like me because I dont post my art [it lowers the value]. I can underdtand the comic people not liking me,..but I do wish I had more support from the OA people.

[Timulty]

Mod Button Hit.

[comix4fun]

The TRUTH is,..alotta the comic collectors dont like me because they are fearful that OA will one day be 'The Real Show'..

 

 

You don't have to preach to me. I agreed with that along time ago. One too many trips to sell a comic or trade a comic back to a deaIer that graded it at VF when they sold it to me and it's now a VG when they are buying it back pushed me over the edge. I saw art as something more honest and true and unique (silly me) I started selling off my hi-end comics over 10 years ago to turn it into art. As of now I only have a few choice books, a few boxes of real favorites, and 20 long boxes of runs and series from 1970 to 1990 for my son to have when he's old enough. I can't see myself going back to comics...I love art too much.

 

 

Chris

[LuckyCantor-migration]

The TRUTH is,..alotta the comic collectors dont like me because they are fearful that OA will one day be 'The Real Show'..

 

 

You don't have to preach to me. I agreed with that along time ago. One too many trips to sell a comic or trade a comic back to a deaIer that graded it at VF when they sold it to me and it's now a VG when they are buying it back pushed me over the edge. I saw art as something more honest and true and unique (silly me) I started selling off my hi-end comics over 10 years ago to turn it into art. As of now I only have a few choice books, a few boxes of real favorites, and 20 long boxes of runs and series from 1970 to 1990 for my son to have when he's old enough. I can't see myself going back to comics...I love art too much.

 

 

Chris

 

I got most of my collection from my Uncle who bought the stuff for mere pennies in the 70's at a store on St. Mark's Place in the West Village, NY. Traded some of it to get what I wanted. Half my collection is his old material and half is what Ive traded to get. Been in the game since 85' with a hiatus during the college years. This stuff (well, at least the very best stuff) is gonna be worth MILLIONS one day. I am convinced of it!!!

[RaccoonRaccoon]

Hey Cantor... I mean hey KK... I mean hey Mustard.. or whatever...

 

I am sure this is like beating a dead horse, but can you please explain your reasoning for thinking that displaying OA diminishes its value?

 

I am looking for serious rationale on why you think this.

 

Thanks! (and welcome back)

[westform]

KK; the board is boring when you are gone. You post interesting links like say an ASm 12 splash for sale!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Of course it was never for public sale... but that is a whole different topic.

 

I haven't been here long enough to know why people are so vehemently opposed to your membership. since I've been here you've done nothing to warrent dismissal as far as I can tell... although admittadly I don't read ever post.

 

I'm sure some would like to ban me. But, sheep behave like sheep.... you shouldn't expect otherwise.

 

The comicart-l banned and repromanded so many collectors that now it is anything but a comicart discussion group.. It truly sucks! And, is boring!!!

 

By the way, no mention of the ASM12 splash over there.... not really important enough for them.

 

There you go, there's my monthly lick-[embarrassing lack of self control]! You may paypal me my $1 now. Dan

 

 

Okay, I admit it, Im KK.

 

I invented this board and its kinda hard to give up.

 

Would we expect a momma to just abandon her child because the court deems her unfit?

 

I know what is best for the forum,..heck,..Im the frickin' KING, for Pete's sake.

 

And while there are a select minority who dont like my personality and see fit to get my banned everytime I arrive,...I wish there'd be more people standing up for me with the recognition of what I do in fact provide for this forum.

 

Yes,..I 'pimp' OA as "better than swiss cheese"...but there's a reason for it,..I love the stuff,..and think more people need to know about the hobby.

 

My objective ambition from day one has been to 'link' comic $$$ with the OA world,...and if you listen to how many people note they have converted to OA in the past 18 months,..I do like to think its cuz of me,..all me!!!! However,...no one wants to give me credit,..and thats OK,..cuz I am a humble and modest type of guy.

 

OK,....I guess Ill be banned again now,...,..but I wanted to set the record straight,..and if Im going to be banned for being me,...I figured, F it!,...if thats the way its gotta be.

 

....I guess the board'll be boring again.

 

KK

 

PS - Im not a cantor of a reformed congregation in Naples, FL,...and I had no intention of posting my art online (As Ive noted b4,...that would lower the materials value!!!! )

[Solar]

[comix4fun]

Of course it was never for public sale... but that is a whole different topic.

 

 

So much for my attempts at discretion...

 

Well at least you said it and not me.

I opened my last can of worms for the day.

 

Chris

[westform]

Hey Cantor... I mean hey KK... I mean hey Mustard.. or whatever...

 

I am sure this is like beating a dead horse, but can you please explain your reasoning for thinking that displaying OA diminishes its value?

 

I am looking for serious rationale on why you think this.

 

Thanks! (and welcome back)

 

I've been collecting for 15 years now. You can quote me or choose to ignore me. But, displaying your original DOES hurt it's value. Period. Many don't care, some do. The market has proven time and time and time again that 'new, fresh' pieces to market get more interest and higher prices. I can't tell you how many times collectors have told me ' oh, I've seen that piece before' or 'yeah, that one's been around the block' when considering a piece for sale. Go try and trade a piece to a dealer who has seen it up on your gallery for 2 years. Good luck. You are much better off with a piece no one has seen. I don't like it either. I love that sites like comicartfans make it possible to see all kinds of art in all kinds of collections... makes the hobby fun. But, them's is the facts. Anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the marketplace or has never tried to sell a piece, or, simply doesn't care about values. Dan F.

[LuckyCantor-migration]

Hey Cantor... I mean hey KK... I mean hey Mustard.. or whatever...

 

I am sure this is like beating a dead horse, but can you please explain your reasoning for thinking that displaying OA diminishes its value?

 

I am looking for serious rationale on why you think this.

 

Thanks! (and welcome back)

 

All things being equal, posting images of your art has no effect on the price.

 

However,...we dont live in a world where 'all things are equal'.

 

In fact, we live in a world where we cant even measure the effect displaying/ not displaying your art has on the price because time is linear and you cant evaluate alternative facts in the same time.

 

The only thing I do know, is that an owner of a piece has limited control over the market for which he inevitably will sell a piece of art and it is in he buyers interest to maximize his control,....IF,..his objective is to gets the highest possible price.

 

A simple cost/ benefit analysis of displaying/ not displaying your art has instructed me that displaying your art very likely has the effect of lowering the ultimate amount a potential bidder might conceivably bid. There are numerous reasons this is the case and they TRUMP the sole benefit (more people see your art and in theory you get more bids,..but if you arent ready to sell,..this doesn't really matter,..now does it)?

 

That said,..I have a thesis paper I wrote on this very topic for my files (it examines the pro's & con's in succinct detail),..and I'll gladly fax you a copy for $59.95.

 

Hope this illuminates my reasoning.

 

Best,

 

KK

[Mister Trent]

I've been collecting for 15 years now. You can quote me or choose to ignore me. But, displaying your original DOES hurt it's value. Period. Many don't care, some do. The market has proven time and time and time again that 'new, fresh' pieces to market get more interest and higher prices. I can't tell you how many times collectors have told me ' oh, I've seen that piece before' or 'yeah, that one's been around the block' when considering a piece for sale. Go try and trade a piece to a dealer who has seen it up on your gallery for 2 years. Good luck. You are much better off with a piece no one has seen. I don't like it either. I love that sites like comicartfans make it possible to see all kinds of art in all kinds of collections... makes the hobby fun. But, them's is the facts. Anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the marketplace or has never tried to sell a piece, or, simply doesn't care about values. Dan F.

 

Up until recently, I had my doubts about this. Now, I'm inclined to agree that - in some cases - displaying your art CAN hurt its value.

 

Let me explain . . .

 

I'm currently involved in a high-end deal where I needed to raise cash. When 'Grails' are involved, you sometimes have to sell stuff off you'd rather not - but sometimes sacrifices have to be made (for the greater good of the collection?).

 

In my CAF Gallery I have the only known 'Dinosaur' cover to have survived from DC's STAR SPANGLED WAR STORIES series. A superb Russ Heath cover for SSW # 137. Anyway, some time back I was approached by a notable collector wanting to be notified if I ever needed to sell the cover. Recently, I considered the need to sell - and I advised the collector it was up for sale. The cover came from Mike Burkey several years ago at a cost of $9,500. As I never sell things at a loss, I asked for a straight $10,000 to allow for a little inflation (it's not as if my intention was to profiteer). I mentioned this to several others, via PM, and also posted the cover's availability on a few sites (including this one).

 

For some reason, I'm at a loss to fathom out, the collector I'm thinking specifically about didn't like the idea that he wasn't being offered the cover exclusively - and it put a dampener on my offer to him/notification of availability (his attitude was one of, "Hey, thousands of people have seen this cover for sale" - whatever that's supposed to mean?). For myself, I just needed to find a buyer. I then got the usual 'lesser' offers scenario, from him and others, but - as I say - I don't make a habit of going out-of-pocket on re-sales.

 

To end on a positive note, I've now managed to finance the deal through other avenues, so the STAR SPANGLED WAR STORIES # 137 remains safe in my collection - and a sad loss was avoided.

 

However, the way I financed this deal in the end - was by another collector liking other stuff on display in my CAF Galleries - and a ready and willing buyer was on hand.

 

So . . . displaying your art CAN hurt its value . . . but then again, maybe not . . .

[wallcrawler-migration]

This may be true but is there no other point to collecting art? Is the collector hiding his art only in it for the $$$$ ? Isn't "art" supposed to be viewed, shared and enjoyed? KK, you promote comic art as "art" that the rest of the world just hasn't recognized yet. But by hiding your collection aren't you truly relagating comic art to a "collectible" catagory and thereby working counter to your goal of comic art being "seen" by the rest of the world?

[Solar]

Valuations arguement aside, I'm not inclined to believe that he has a collection until I see SOMETHING from it. For the love of all that is holy, post a friggin Don Heck page or something else that can't possibly lose value.

 

After all the debates and BS, KK is still ALL TALK and it's annoying when someone who is ALL TALK comes into the forum with 750 different aliases and claimes to be the god and king of all Original Art.

[jjeanius]

Regarding Trent's post above...

 

I think it's all a matter of perception. If someone is approached with an opportunity to purchase something, and they think they are ahead of the curve, and the first person with a shot to purchase something, this may work in your favor as they don't want to pass on it when there may be so many other potential buyers waiting in the wings. If, however, it's publicly offered for sale and not snatched up immediately, potential buyers adopt the mindset that, since no one else has bought it at the asking price, it must be overpriced. This, of course, is ludicrous, as it's based solely on financial considerations, and the perceived "desirability" of the piece in the current market...and has nothing to do with the potential buyer's interest in the piece solely as a piece of art. There's a very good chance that he would have bought the piece at your asking price if it had been offered privately...but when a piece is offered for sale to the general public, and no one buys it in the first few days, some take this as an opportunity to lowball.

 

It's certainly not rational...but it's also not the first time I've seen it. And I don't think it has so much to do with the fact that the art was in your gallery...so much as with the fact that it was for sale publicly.

[comix4fun]

I just put this one up in my CAF. I defy fate to make this one lose value.

 

VaVaVaVooom

 

 

I have posted on my site or on my CAF most of my favorite pieces, and I have never had a problem if I needed to move them. In fact, high quality pieces are high quality regardless of the amount of times it has been seen.

 

 

I have seen people make that "that piece has been around" argument, and it is more smoke than substance...or should I say....more negotiation tactic than substantive complaint. People spending money based on having seen a piece or not seen a piece are not the ones you would call hard core collectors.

 

The hard core knowledgable collector is buying a piece based on quality, not freshness to the eye. The quality remains long after the freshness has grown stale.

 

Best,

Chris

[Mister Trent]

The hard core knowledgable collector is buying a piece based on quality, not freshness to the eye. The quality remains long after the freshness has grown stale.

 

Best,

Chris

 

I think the danger here is that complacency can easily set in. Would-be buyers see items not shifting quickly, and they begin to think negative thoughts about the art in question.

[LuckyCantor-migration]

This may be true but is there no other point to collecting art? Is the collector hiding his art only in it for the $$$$ ? Isn't "art" supposed to be viewed, shared and enjoyed?

 

Im a selfish [embarrassing lack of self control],..whayya want from me

 

 

 

KK, you promote comic art as "art" that the rest of the world just hasn't recognized yet. But by hiding your collection aren't you truly relagating comic art to a "collectible" catagory and thereby working counter to your goal of comic art being "seen" by the rest of the world?

 

 

 

Please dont think your logic can work on me,..I am immune

 

KK

[delekkerste]

Anyone who disagrees doesn't understand the marketplace or has never tried to sell a piece, or, simply doesn't care about values. Dan F.

 

Didn't you see "The Silence of the Lambs"? What do we covet? What we see every day! The owner of my grail piece has it publicly displayed and it just makes me want it all the more, seeing that it exists and knowing that he won't sell it at the present time!

 

I'm not disagreeing that in some cases exposure can diminish the appeal of a piece, but in many cases it doesn't. Especially if you are talking about the truly top-tier pieces in comic book original art or other art - just look at all the masterpieces of fine art on display in the top museums; anyone who doesn't believe that the value of the Mona Lisa or Guernica or The Night Watch isn't enhanced because of the thousands/millions of people who have been to the museums where they are on display and stared in awe is simply naive. For the truly top pieces of comic book OA like KK claims to own, would any potential buyer pay a penny less if an image were posted online? Au contraire, knowing human nature, doing so would probably have all sorts of people scrambling for their pocketbooks!

[wallcrawler-migration]

I really shouldn't have singled you out KK. I just remember you making the argument last. Actually I struggle with both sides of this issue

 

If a collector thinks of comic art is "art" I would think that the collector would be inclined to share it. If I spent millions on a Picasso I'd invite all my friends in to see it. If i viewed comic art as purely a collectible, like comic books, then maybe not. When I collected comics I had them in boxes and stored away and hardly ever showed them. There is no "Comic Book Fans" site where you can post your comics (I guess knowbody cares?). Of course comic art as "production art" is a collectible that can be enjoyed like fine art by those (few) of us who appreciate it.

 

I still think that if you want to promote comic art you have to expose more people to the art itself...especially the quality art. How can potential collectors get excited about comic art when they can't see what they can have? And the new collectors are coming in and buying at established values. They don't know, and probably don't care, the cover they bought for $10k today sold for $5k three years ago. So 10k is the new value banchmark for the new collector. I don't disagree that there tends be a feeding frenzy over fresh art; but, maybe if you want to promote comic art values you have to get more people into the hobby by promoting the art itself. And you promote the art by showing the art. I think the museum shows over the last couple of years have done alot to bring comic art into the public eye and create exitement about it.

 

As others have stated quality, vintage art will not go down in value. It is too hard to find anyway. Will the buyer of the ASM 12 splash make it less desirable and have sell if for less than he bought it if he posts it in a gallery?.