Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

[codfish]

 

It's clear you guys aren't bothering to read my posts before responding. I will say it one more time. People who don't buy SLABS, don't collect HIGH GRADE, and don't spend A LOT OF MONEY on books don't need to worry about pressing.

 

That is just being niave. Considering slabbed books and mid grade are more common I would be more worried about getting a book that has had work done than just slabbed an high grade. Any pressing could be hard to detect and done to the right book for no cost could mean ALOT more profit than you would imagine.

 

Think of that thirty dollar book you have that is really nice except for the few pressable defects. You want to sell it so you place it under a flat heavy object for x number of days and then pull it out and sell it as a grade higher. You get sixty bucks. that is a handsome return for no money and little effort and considering how many of those types of books that are out there that definitely makes it something you should be thinking about.

 

Now think of all those honest people out there that never bothered to do the above scenario because older definitions and community feedback painted it as wrong. Well now those guys can "legally" get away with pressing a book because the definitions are changed and whether or not the customer like it or not doesn't matter because the OPG, CGC, or whatever other influential sources have okayed it.

 

I think those who don't care about disclosure and pressing are not observing these threads closely. I would say that the sides are about 50-50. Most of the informal observations I have made for many grading topics would lead me to wonder how CGC and other influential sources could make the grading rules they do when many may clearly feel opposite.

 

[october]

 

It's clear you guys aren't bothering to read my posts before responding. I will say it one more time. People who don't buy SLABS, don't collect HIGH GRADE, and don't spend A LOT OF MONEY on books don't need to worry about pressing.

 

That is just being niave. Considering slabbed books and mid grade are more common I would be more worried about getting a book that has had work done than just slabbed an high grade. Any pressing could be hard to detect and done to the right book for no cost could mean ALOT more profit than you would imagine.

 

Think of that thirty dollar book you have that is really nice except for the few pressable defects. You want to sell it so you place it under a flat heavy object for x number of days and then pull it out and sell it as a grade higher. You get sixty bucks. that is a handsome return for no money and little effort and considering how many of those types of books that are out there that definitely makes it something you should be thinking about.

 

Now think of all those honest people out there that never bothered to do the above scenario because older definitions and community feedback painted it as wrong. Well now those guys can "legally" get away with pressing a book because the definitions are changed and whether or not the customer like it or not doesn't matter because the OPG, CGC, or whatever other influential sources have okayed it.

 

I think those who don't care about disclosure and pressing are not observing these threads closely. I would say that the sides are about 50-50. Most of the informal observations I have made for many grading topics would lead me to wonder how CGC and other influential sources could make the grading rules they do when many may clearly feel opposite.

 

 

The fact that you think the pressing we are discussing entails sticking a comic under heavy books means that I don't have to read the rest of your post....and you call me naive. Thanks for saving me the trouble of writing a response.

[october]

In any case, I am not interested in getting into some protracted debate on this subject and further responses won't be answered. I will just stand on the posts I have already made and bow out of the "discussion". At this point, I really don't see anything being accomplished as these issues have all been dissected time and time again on here to no avail. A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

 

Good luck guys. You will need it.

[THE_BEYONDER]

If you want a specific example, there's the Human Torch #1(#2) that Marnin used to own, where Susan supposedly did the work herself and then did not spot restoration during the Sotheby's auction, but CGC did when it got slabbed. Borock mentioned that one specifically.

 

He did? Where?

 

I like that....."supposedly"....so it's actually anecdotal. That's good stuff to use to belittle someone's reputation.

 

 

I know there are others, but don't have specifics since I never owned the books.

 

 

...but don't let that stop you from presenting it as fact.

 

Okay.....that's pretty lame.

 

 

I am sure that if you get on your soapbox and proclaim that it never happened, some people will be happy to point out others. Maybe you could start by asking Zillatoy which books (plural) he was referring to here:

 

I'm not doing your homework for you. You're the one that's presenting it as gospel.

 

So actually, you have a pretty vague picture of all this, when it comes down to it. Not exactly a reign of missed restoration examples. And this all happened...how long ago?

 

 

 

Of course it's anecdotal! Was there ever any doubt about that? That doesn't mean it wasn't true, does it? And, of course, nothing you've posted speaks to the original issue I was talking about -- which is, if Susan missed color touch and glue on books she was inspecting for Sotheby's, how can she detect pressing with any reliability? Just because she says it doesn't make it true -- or are you simply willing to accept her word as gospel? I suppose we all need to believe in heroes -- we're comic book geeks after all.

 

As for how long ago she missed the restoration, Sotheby's auctions ran from 1991 to 2000, which I believe was the last one. But you already knew that.

 

Are you suggesting that Susan hasn't improved on her skills over the last 6 years?

 

 

(still catching up)

[codfish]

In any case, I am not interested in getting into some protracted debate on this subject and further responses won't be answered. I will just stand on the posts I have already made and bow out of the "discussion". At this point, I really don't see anything being accomplished as these issues have all been dissected time and time again on here to no avail. A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

 

Good luck guys. You will need it.

 

ROFL. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

 

Don't worry I think that you will find plenty of other heads in that sand you can visit with.

 

Oh I am glad you decided to accuse people of not properly reading your posts ... it allows me to accuse you of the same thing since I mentioned nothing about professionals pressing with heavy objects. If you had read the post instead of skimmed it I said that dealers (read amateurs) would use the placing heavy objects on a book. Why the heck would an amateur trying to make money go out an buy a professional press? Tell me you have never tried to press a book or soemthing by placing it under a heavy object?

 

No wonder you are running off with your tail between your legs.

[Mushroom]

Mushroom, I had a dream about outposting you. I have awaken, and I apologize.

 

How've you been? Good to see you back here...(extends olive branch )

 

You are outposting me.

 

I offered flowers back in that water cooler thread, but I am happy to do it again.

 

i try to only stay in the SS area but sometimes there is no action so I come here to participate in the tennis.

[tth2]

 

I don't get too many chances to do this with Tim's posts

[october]

In any case, I am not interested in getting into some protracted debate on this subject and further responses won't be answered. I will just stand on the posts I have already made and bow out of the "discussion". At this point, I really don't see anything being accomplished as these issues have all been dissected time and time again on here to no avail. A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

 

Good luck guys. You will need it.

 

ROFL. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

 

Don't worry I think that you will find plenty of other heads in that sand you can visit with.

 

Oh I am glad you decided to accuse people of not properly reading your posts ... it allows me to accuse you of the same thing since I mentioned nothing about professionals pressing with heavy objects. If you had read the post instead of skimmed it I said that dealers (read amateurs) would use the placing heavy objects on a book. Why the heck would an amateur trying to make money go out an buy a professional press? Tell me you have never tried to press a book or soemthing by placing it under a heavy object?

 

No wonder you are running off with your tail between your legs.

 

Yet another stupid shill. I should have known.

 

By the way person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point:

 

1. You can't effectively press a comic by putting it under books. That doesn't do anything you can't do with your fingers.

 

2. I know of "amateurs" who own pro presses.

 

 

[tth2]

A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

Very true. I keep advocating PETA type tactics, but no one seems to want to throw a bunch of blood on unethical dealers' comics.

[adamstrange]

A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

Very true. I keep advocating PETA type tactics, but no one seems to want to throw a bunch of blood on unethical dealers' comics.

 

I'd vote for tossing them a bushel of rabid ferrets!

[Ze-man]

A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

Very true. I keep advocating PETA type tactics, but no one seems to want to throw a bunch of blood on unethical dealers' comics.

 

I'd vote for tossing them a bushel of rabid ferrets!

 

 

I know cat jugglers,rabid ferrets are lame

 

So step off.

[mica]

A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

Very true. I keep advocating PETA type tactics, but no one seems to want to throw a bunch of blood on unethical dealers' comics.

[tth2]

A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

Very true. I keep advocating PETA type tactics, but no one seems to want to throw a bunch of blood on unethical dealers' comics.

Actually, I'm being half-serious. Their tactics may be distasteful, but you really don't see many socialites wearing fur in American cities anymore. Talk IS cheap, while action gets results.

[Scheradon]

A lot of sound and fury, but not much else. Sure, talking a lot is better than doing nothing at all, but not much better.

Very true. I keep advocating PETA type tactics, but no one seems to want to throw a bunch of blood on unethical dealers' comics.

Actually, I'm being half-serious. Their tactics may be distasteful, but you really don't see many socialites wearing fur in American cities anymore. Talk IS cheap, while action gets results.

 

I was thinking that perhaps taking a hammer to the next con and helping these dealers flatten out some of their small defects in a nice lightning round of poundings would send a message.

[codfish]

Yet another stupid shill. I should have known.

 

By the way person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point:

 

1. You can't effectively press a comic by putting it under books. That doesn't do anything you can't do with your fingers.

 

2. I know of "amateurs" who own pro presses.

 

 

Ah yes and now the personal attacks.

 

1. Not once did i say press a comic with books. I said a heavy object(s). Something which I know works as I have used it to flatten a postcard and magazines.

 

2. I don't doubt that amateurs own presses but many would not be able to nor want to incur that cost.

 

As for the shill part .... I am codfish here and oxbladder on other comic forums I have never hidden that fact. I don't know whgo you think I am but I can tell you you are wrong. I know that people cry shill wheneever they are desparate though so that's okay. I can handle both criticisms. Heck I could almost believe your POV here if they were more fact based.

 

Fact is you have to worry about resto or pressing in any grade and slabbed or not. I have learned that the hard way a few times.

[OldGuy]

Oh, and I like pie.

 

FU and your pie!

 

FU pie, my favorite.

 

Could we get this thread back on-topic, please?

 

No.

 

Well, I thank you all the same.

 

Any time.

[Ze-man]

Matt, if a comic has a severe non color breaking crease that is bad enough to have a hard edge, and it is pressed out. Is the crease really gone under the ink?

 

I ask this because I was wondering when one handles a raw comic that had a crease like this pressed out, would the previously damaged area have a tendency to "pop" back to its original creased state? Or once pressed are the papers fibers mended in such a way to withstand such handling?

 

 

Can we handle a pressed comic as if it were off the press new?

 

 

Ze-

[drbanner]

I thought that NCB crease on the GS Marvel you ironed out looked pretty hard, could you tell the crease had ever been there after fixing it? That was imPRESSive!

[LearnedHand]

Peter, I have to say I just really don't understand where you're coming from on this. If scientists came up with a steroid or other performance enhancing drug that was absolutely impossible to detect, are you saying that organized sports should just throw up its hands and say they're not going to bother to outlaw that drug anymore?

 

Hi Tim,

 

Steroids are very different, in that they (themselves) are illegal. Pressing is not illegal. Its application to comic books is not illegal. It’s simply under fire right now in this hobby ONLY when not disclosed. Very, very different things and I see your example as anything but analogous.

 

But I’ll ask you and everyone else your same question, but instead of steroids, let’s take a non-illegal drug that enhances performance, like creatine, and use it as a replacement for pressing:

 

If you know:

-creatine (pressing) exists; and

-there is some dicta (not even dicta, as the Guide is not a rule book and nothing in it will ever be law) that says creatine’s use is perfectly fine (but if used this should be disclosed); and

-if you don't disclose its use, no one will know because it is impossible to detect; and

- regardless, there is no enforcement ability whatsoever.

 

What would you do?

 

I’m not looking for idealistic answers, I’m looking for a real concrete answer that can be implemented and enforced.

 

Again, using my steroids analogy, if scientists created a completely undetectable steroid that had absolutely no harmful side effects on the user, are you saying that organized sports should not bother to outlaw it? Is the harm that steroids do to the user the reason we ban them from sports, or is it the fact that we value the performance of "real" people and don't want to see "real" athletic accomplishments devalued?

 

I’ll respond to what I think you’re querying:

What I’ve said (repeatedly) is that complaining and definitions alone change nothing. That’s why I keep asking for those that advocate against NDP to move the discussion forward, by proposing possible solutions to the underlying problem. If this ultimately helps determine that properly performed pressing cannot be definitively detected, then maybe there is truly nothing to be done. And, if this were the definitive conclusion and people still want to discuss it, you’d have your quixotic quest.

 

I do fail to understand how people could oppose a policy of disclosure, though. How does it hurt anyone except the perpetuators to have a policy of disclosure? For the people that don't care, they're not harmed in the least. For the people that do care, they're getting what they asked for. And collecting in general benefits from a less fraudulent environment. If this were 1933, would you have been one of the people lobbying against the disclosure requirements of the Securities Act?

 

If you're thinking I'm against disclosure, this is not something I've ever said. As I mentioned above (and in my post from which your questions stem), I think disclosure is great and everyone's ethical obligation. I just don't see it as a panacea, and I think it's of limited value.

 

It is too difficult to govern the ethical component only. What people think, they are going to think. It is much easier, and more practical, to govern actual conduct. If you want to combat racism by trying to convince people to be less racist, then good luck to you in your quixotic quest. I would rather pass laws that prevent someone from denying others the right to vote based on the color of their skin. It might not stop people from being racist, but it will help to stop them from manifesting racist behavior.

 

Ahh, this is where it gets tricky. When talking about racism, you’re right – laws were passed. And those laws are enforced. As with any violation of the law, our compulsory process means there is a complaint filed, a charge, a trial with clear evidence provided on both sides, media coverage and , if the defendant is found guilty, serious sanctions. Tell me what in the comic book world, even after sniffing magic markers for hours, remotely resembles any of this? There are no laws for comic books. No mandatory compliance requirement. No neutral tribunal with clear evidence to be presented. No finding of guilt. And no sanctions (serious or otherwise). Disclosure helps – I most certainly agree. But it is voluntary and only as good as that which the disclosing party knows AND cares to share.

 

By the way, isn't your quoted comment supportive of my statements that voluntary disclosure via the honor system is of limited value?

[tth2]

Peter, it's too difficult and frustrating to respond by writing. This is a discussion that would conducted much more easily in person. You're not going to be in SD, are you?

 

Suffice to say that illegality is irrelevant to me, and the constant raising of it as a strawman in these discussions is extremely frustrating. You keep saying we should stop bogging down in technicalities, so I was trying to explain the principles underlying my views, but you keep bogging it down in technicalities like steroids are illegal but pressing is not. Various drugs could be legal but banned by athletic organizations because they unfairly enhance performance, just like pressing could be legal but frowned upon/banned by some comic collector association. Blood doping in its most basic form is completely legal, as it's just restoring a person's own blood to him, but it's banned, rightfully so, by the IOC and others.

 

It doesn't matter. The reason I was using the steroids analogy was because they are performance enhancing, just like pressing or other restoration, and would more easily illustrate the principles I was trying to explain. Obviously I was wrong.