Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[Earl Davis]

I find Scott McCloud's 1993 definition of comics quite an interesting take. In 'Understanding Comics' his definition is...

 

"Juxtaposed pictorial and other images in deliberate sequence, intended to convey information and/or to produce an aesthetic response from the viewer."

 

Not sure if I have the same opinion or not but based on McCloud's view text is not a necessary component of the comic.

 

If we were to take this wide definition as being of the parent class ‘Comics’ or ‘Comics Art’ could it not contain sub classes like Comic Strip, Cartoon Strip, Picture Story all of which extend the parent classification with their own unique characteristics?

 

Perhaps someone already has? Did Kunzle put forward any types of sub categorisation?

 

Earl.

[Earl Davis]

One thing I don’t understand is the attention that books like All The Funny Folks (1926) get (interior illustration below….)

 

 

when comics like this from 1907 with Buster Brown…

 

 

seem to get much less love.

 

Earl.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Thanks Earl, just what I was going to point out. McCloud's definition - maybe not perfect, but certainly a good foundation to work from - definitely operates on a more inclusive level.

[gifflefunk]

"Juxtaposed pictorial and other images in deliberate sequence, intended to convey information and/or to produce an aesthetic response from the viewer."

 

Based on that definition all it takes is a two panel cartoon showing a before and after state (a sequence) to qualify as a comic. And if that is the case then some of the early American Comic Almanacs that pre-date Oldbuck are the first comic books, so I don't think Bob will buy that definition.

 

I do agree that there is a hierarchy to illustrated story telling. Chap Books, Big Little Books, Picture-Tales, and Comic Books all fall in there somewhere. And Oldbuck is definitely a distant cousin of the Comic Book (same with Big Little Books), but there is a major and distinct difference between something like Oldbuck and Action Comics #1. The embedding of dialogue into the artwork is what seperates these two cousins and is what I, and those other historians that have traced the history of the medium back to the Yellow Kid, use as the metric to determine a comic book from a non-comic book.

[Earl Davis]

Depends on what you mean by Comic Book I suppose.

 

McCloud was defining comics as in the art form rather than the medium upon or within which that art is presented. So he was describing Comics, not Comic Books.

 

So by ‘comic book’ yes any publication containing ‘a two panel cartoon showing a before and after state’ MIGHT be described as a Comic Book.

 

My opinion for what little its worth however would be that a comic book is a publication where the predominant content is comics. Anything else would be another type of publication (i.e. a sports magazine’), which contains some comics content.

 

Earl.

[OldGuy]

i no longer check out what goes on insidethe CGC threads aas there are simply too many uneducated insufficiently_thoughtful_persons here.

 

[OldGuy]

Looks like the "Buck" is falling?

[showcase4]

Looks like the "Buck" is falling?

 

actually the "buck" is rising my friend.....if a restored British Oldbuck is worth $1,000, then a 1st print US unrestored Oldbuck is EASILY worth $20,000.

 

let me prove my point: let's say a VG Action #1 is worth $75,000. If a British printed restored Action #1 came on the matket, I'll bet you my entire collection you wouldn't pay more than 5% of the price of an American unresotred copy...$3,750.

 

The $1,000 Brithish restored Oldbuck is 5% of what I paid for the American unrestored 1st printing, which by the way as about 20 times rarer than Action #1.

 

[infinite_comics-migration]

Bob Overstreet, Arnold B, and some of the others mentioned here have little to nothing to do with the Victorian and Platinum Era comics history articles or price indexes.

 

Yeah, but who do we blame for their inclusion in the OPG?

[*paull*]

let me prove my point: let's say a VG Action #1 is worth $75,000. If a British printed restored Action #1 came on the matket, I'll bet you my entire collection you wouldn't pay more than 5% of the price of an American unresotred copy...$3,750.

 

The $1,000 Brithish restored Oldbuck is 5% of what I paid for the American unrestored 1st printing, which by the way as about 20 times rarer than Action #1.

 

What kind of analogy is that? The American printing IS a reprint!

[showcase4]

let me prove my point: let's say a VG Action #1 is worth $75,000. If a British printed restored Action #1 came on the matket, I'll bet you my entire collection you wouldn't pay more than 5% of the price of an American unresotred copy...$3,750.

 

The $1,000 Brithish restored Oldbuck is 5% of what I paid for the American unrestored 1st printing, which by the way as about 20 times rarer than Action #1.

 

What kind of analogy is that? The American printing IS a reprint!

 

you just embarassed yourself in front of about 800 of your fellow Golden Age collectors..you may want to quit while you'er ahead

[*paull*]

Care to explain?

 

The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck was not original material when it was printed in the U.S.

[Aman619]

good luck Paull !!

[Comicdey]

Paul....hide your head in shame.....this "co m ic" is the holy grail of all American collectors and you should be admonished for considering otherwise.

 

 

Don't get into this one dimensional argument.....just admit that Oldbuck is the holy grail of Showcase 4 and pray you come upon one so you can sell it to him for insane money. Don't say comic or picture book or big little book or tabloid or funny book, or antiquarian bathroom literature.

 

Actually I just realized that the Oldbuck book like many "adult" funny book literature was probably read in many an outhouse over it's history. Maybe a good cleaning is in order.

[showcase4]

Care to explain?

 

The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck was not original material when it was printed in the U.S.

 

only because it's 5 am and my kids are sleeping, am I willing to explain this again:

 

Obadiah Oldbuck is the 1st comic book published in the US. When you collect historically important comic books, what is important is being 1st.

i.e.

 

Comic Monthly #1 - 1st 10 cent monthly newsstand comic book

Detective Dan Secret Op #48 - 1st comic book with original art

Buster Brown and his Resolutions - 1st nationally distributed comic book

 

all of the above had 1 thing in common and 1 thing only : 1st

 

Obadiah Oldbuck being previously printed in Europe is a "non-issue". All that matters is that it was 1st at something here in America...in this case, the 1st US published comic book. It did not have to be created here to be 1st...it just had to be printed here 1st.

Please tell me you get it?

[Earl Davis]

Care to explain?

 

The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck was not original material when it was printed in the U.S.

 

only because it's 5 am and my kids are sleeping, am I willing to explain this again:

 

Obadiah Oldbuck is the 1st comic book published in the US. When you collect historically important comic books, what is important is being 1st.

i.e.

 

Comic Monthly #1 - 1st 10 cent monthly newsstand comic book

Detective Dan Secret Op #48 - 1st comic book with original art

Buster Brown and his Resolutions - 1st nationally distributed comic book

 

all of the above had 1 thing in common and 1 thing only : 1st

 

Obadiah Oldbuck being previously printed in Europe is a "non-issue". All that matters is that it was 1st at something here in America...in this case, the 1st US published comic book. It did not have to be created here to be 1st...it just had to be printed here 1st.

Please tell me you get it?

 

Whilst we agree on most things in this thread I must admit this is the part of what you have been saying that I genuinely don't understand.

 

Why would a foreign reprint be more important than the original edition? Why would I desire a foreign redrawn American reprint over the original? If you are an American I can see why owning the American edition would be desirable but to most people it would surely be the original Swiss edition by the original artist that is of the most historical significance?

[Aman619]

thats just one of the more glaring contradictions to OO. It cant be the first "comic book" since it was published elsewhere before the American edition. It might be the first "comic book" published in America, but, "first" means "originality", and the celebration of OO as the first American comic book connotes that it "began" the art form now known as comic books.

 

But if all OO was was just the first one printed here...well, its lack of specialness is obvious. Is the very first BOOK published in America similarly lauded by collectors if it was originally published and written in France, or England (excepting the Bible of course) ?

 

In my mind and understanding, comic books are generally thought to be an American invention, like jazz. Perhaps neither is still considered to be true. But going back and determining which was the FIRST American comic has great appeal. However, as you say, it CANNOT be something created and published outside of America first! Because it A) cant be American and B) cant be 'first' except in a truly blindered self-deluding fashion that makes specific rules and then claims to meet them.

[showcase4]

Whilst we agree on most things in this thread I must admit this is the part of what you have been saying that I genuinely don't understand.

 

Why would a foreign reprint be more important than the original edition? Why would I desire a foreign redrawn American reprint over the original? If you are an American I can see why owning the American edition would be desirable but to most people it would surely be the original Swiss edition by the original artist that is of the most historical significance?

 

This is a great question Earl

 

As a collector very heavily in the Victorian/Platinum Age market, I have networked with many other collectors/dealers who also specialize in thie era and area of comic collecting. There is one universal theme amongst most of us.....if it was not printed in the US, it is worth pennies on the dollar. It is an American collectors mindset to focus on American printed books. If the 1st Obadiah Oldbuck was printed in Switzerland in 1837, and the American version in 1842....the American version gets all the glory, and the hefty price tag....to a collector living here in The US. I'm sure that Spain has a high profile, recognized 1st comic book, but trying finding a buyer here in the US......in Spain, it would probably get gobbled up in 5 seconds by a guy like me who lives there.

 

It is my experience that most collectors focus on collectibles from their own country -- Obadiah being no exception.

[Earl Davis]

I kind of understand where you are coming from.

 

Actually you stimulate some interesting thoughts for me that I have considered before. The comic history books I grew up on (Clark, Gifford, Horn – who was American BTW) site ‘Ally Sloper: A Moral Lesson’ as the first British Comic Book (dated 1873). As the US Obadiah was a reprint of the bootleg British Edition, I suppose that might make Obadiah the first UK comic as well?

[Crowzilla]

let me prove my point: let's say a VG Action #1 is worth $75,000. If a British printed restored Action #1 came on the matket, I'll bet you my entire collection you wouldn't pay more than 5% of the price of an American unresotred copy...$3,750.

 

This is a poor analogy Steve since an American Action #1 is the original edition compared to one foreign reprint. A better example would be that if a US Action #1 is the original edition, and it was reprinted in the UK and in let's say France where it was the first comic book published there would the France reprint edition be worth more not only than the UK edition, but more than the US original it is taken from simply because it was the first comic published there?

I think most on this board would answer NO.

(but of course, since OO is so rare, you can still make money if most answer no, you only need one more deeper pockets to believe like you do).