??? -- Comiclink auction?

[RickHigh]

I have a question about the upcoming CL auction. I'm looking at bidding on a certain book for my Hawkman collection and would like to put a Maximum Bid on it. The question I have, from you who have dealt with these auctions is...With no bidder ID's on these auctions, how can I be sure that someone is not just shill bidding just to run up the bid to it's Maximum. For instance, if the book is sitting at $10 and I put a MB of $100, do you find that more times than not the maximum bid is always reached? Not sure if I'm making sense here, but I want a book and am willing to pay for it, but I just don't want to be shilled by...well, you know what I mean. I'm sure that the guys at CL are honest and all, but I've never dealt with one of these auctions before and would appreciate some insight from the veterans out there.

 

Thanks,

Rick

[sterlingcomics]

That's a good question. I would call them up and ask if the seller has the ability to bid on books he is providing in the auction. If the answer is yes, then I'd assume the worst. I'd assume that they would have technical safeguards for this....and because it's more difficult to create shill accounts on ComicLink (each one is approved on a case by case basis), I would hope this is not a possibility. Then again, I wouldn't think my e-mail would fall victim to a configuration/security issue from them either, and it happened.

[Filter81]

In the last Comiclink auction, I noticed quite a few books that supposedly sold successfully at auction, that reappeared on comiclink for sale just hours later.

 

My feeling after seeing some of the books reappear on the site so quickly, is that its very possible that either the books' consignor or a comiclink employee bought the books to relist them on the site when they weren't happy with the prices some of the books were going to reach.

 

This is just something I noticed. Not something I know about first hand or anything. But still, if it were me, and I was planning on bidding on a comiclink auction, I would not place my maximum bid until the very end.

[mica]

That's a good question. I would call them up and ask if the seller has the ability to bid on books he is providing in the auction.

I may be missing something here, but if I have to do THAT, then something is wrong in the first place.

[nazmuth]

In the last Comiclink auction, I noticed quite a few books that supposedly sold successfully at auction, that reappeared on comiclink for sale just hours later.

 

My feeling after seeing some of the books reappear on the site so quickly, is that its very possible that either the books' consignor or a comiclink employee bought the books to relist them on the site when they weren't happy with the prices some of the books were going to reach.

 

This is just something I noticed. Not something I know about first hand or anything. But still, if it were me, and I was planning on bidding on a comiclink auction, I would not place my maximum bid until the very end.

 

The book I was looking at showed up back on the site, but is listed as 'Sale Pending' with an option to waitlist. Is this what you are talking about?

[Filter81]

The book I was looking at showed up back on the site, but is listed as 'Sale Pending' with an option to waitlist. Is this what you are talking about?

 

Actually it happened with a number of books in the auction. The one I paid the most attention to was the Action 2 CGC 4.5 that sold at auction and went back up for sale on the site that night I believe or maybe early the next morning. I was watching that one extra closely because I used to own it, and was curious what it would sell for.

[sterlingcomics]

That's a good question. I would call them up and ask if the seller has the ability to bid on books he is providing in the auction.

I may be missing something here, but if I have to do THAT, then something is wrong in the first place.

 

That's true as well, but in the name of getting the truth, ya gotta go to the source.

[nazmuth]

The book I was looking at showed up back on the site, but is listed as 'Sale Pending' with an option to waitlist. Is this what you are talking about?

 

Actually it happened with a number of books in the auction. The one I paid the most attention to was the Action 2 CGC 4.5 that sold at auction and went back up for sale on the site that night I believe or maybe early the next morning. I was watching that one extra closely because I used to own it, and was curious what it would sell for.

 

But if they are listed with sale pending and an option to waitlist it does not seem very nefarious. If the book immediately went back to inventory with a buy price then that is a different story...

[ronm3-migration]

I think books now have a no reserve placed on them. As far as a book you want to buy I always just figure out what i am willing to pay and just bid that high. If I win I win if not maybe next time. Just use GP Analysis and go from there. Good luck on the book.

[Nostalgic Attic]

It certainly appears that the auctions are subject to shilling by the owners of the books or employees, much the same that Heritage auctions are. As always be prepared to pay what your maximum bid is. My personal experience is that I have not gotten any great bargains from CLink auctions, although I have gotten some great books. Were the auctions shilled? I dunno

[jkrk]

I think books now have a no reserve placed on them. As far as a book you want to buy I always just figure out what i am willing to pay and just bid that high.

 

I agree. Simply decide on your limit and be discilplined enough to stay with that price. I view the NO RESERVE auction to mean that either a customer will buy the book or the auctioneer/friends of the family/consignor will be the high bidder.

 

Doesn't Heitage offer books that they own? How about CL? Hakes? Are auctions really auctions? Does it matter?

[Filter81]

I agree. Simply decide on your limit and be discilplined enough to stay with that price. I view the NO RESERVE auction to mean that either a customer will buy the book or the auctioneer/friends of the family/consignor will be the high bidder.

 

Doesn't Heitage offer books that they own? How about CL? Hakes? Are auctions really auctions? Does it matter?

 

I've never completely understood why most people seem to be ok with this. If someone shill bids on eBay its a big deal. People are outraged, and thats grounds for having your eBay account removed. But if Clink, Heritage, etc does it.. its just something that is to be expected.. and for the most part its just accepted.

 

To me, the whole point of a "No Reserve" auction, is you are able to purchase a comic for whatever the market dictates. Any time you participate in a no reserve auction you have an opportunity to get a good deal. And every time you participate in a no reserve auction you have the peace of mind of knowing that whatever you won the book for, there was somebody willing to buy the book at one bid underneath you. (And therefore are much less likely to have overpaid for a comic.)

 

If company employees can bid on books.. or worse yet, the books' owners can bid up the prices on their own books.. then its really not a no reserve auction... the reserve is whatever the company or owner decides they want to sell the book for... its just much less transparent than if the auction house had just put the seller's reserve on the book in the first place.

 

If I place a max bid of $1000 on an item, with the understanding that its a no reserve auction.. and I'm going to win it for $700 until the auction house or seller of the comic decides to bump up my bid an extra $300... in my opinion $300 was just basically stolen from me... regardless of whether or not I was willing to pay $1000 in the first place.

 

Imagine if you went to buy a car with $15,000 to spend... and the salesman tells you you can have the car for $10k.. You say ok. So the salesman says "well.. ok.. you want it at $10k? you can have it for $11k now." "What? $11k is ok? Make that $12k?"

 

How long before you walk away? In my opinion, what is happening here is worse. because at least in this example, the guy is doing it to your face rather than in secret behind your back....

 

When bidding through Heritage... I can't even tell you how many times I was winning a comic going into the live auction at hundreds, or even thousands of dollars below my max bid, only to wind up winning the comic at 100% of my max bid down to the last dollar. (Probably 90% of the auctions I won. Enough to make me wonder if there wasn't someone on the other end intentionally bumping up my bid to get every last dollar.)

 

I know in one instance, last year, I was bidding on a $100,000+ comic at Heritage. I was winning going into the live auction but participating via live phone bidding anyway. The bid increment was $10,000. Suddenly Someone outbids me by something like $100 or $1000 or something way below the bid increment. Then the lady gets on the phone to me and tells me I have to raise my bid by $20k if I want the comic. A few months later the book winds up on eBay.. for sale by some auction house I'd never heard of that just happened to be located in Dallas, Tx. (The contact information for which is the exact same address as Heritage Galleries) To me thats not right. Especially when you consider that Heritage still probably took their seller fees and buyers premium for the book. To me it reeks of dishonesty.

 

The worst part is... these companies get in such nice material on a consistant basis.. this dishonesty is not necessary. They could be as honest & ethical as they want and still be successful. They just choose not to, figuring people have to buy from them anyway if they want to get the nicest books.

 

In my humble opinion... the way some of these companies do business.. sucks.. and should be changed.

[Calamerica]

Easy one to fix. Start a company that guarantees No Shilling!

 

CAL

[Davenport]

 

In my humble opinion... the way some of these companies do business.. sucks.. and should be changed.

Zipper's collecting blog has an NY Daily News article posted More Auction House Hi-Jinx

 

"Now the scandal has even spread to the world of sports memorabilia: Ohio investigators say Mastro Auctions, the world's largest sports auction house, may have played a role in what is being called "Coingate."

 

It's like a scandal within a scandal, with investigators taking notice of apparent auction house shill bidding.

[Filter81]

Zipper's collecting blog has an NY Daily News article posted More Auction House Hi-Jinx

 

"Now the scandal has even spread to the world of sports memorabilia: Ohio investigators say Mastro Auctions, the world's largest sports auction house, may have played a role in what is being called "Coingate."

 

It's like a scandal within a scandal, with investigators taking notice of apparent auction house shill bidding.

 

great. Last year I remember hearing somewhere that Mastronet was planning on getting involved in comics in a big way by the Summer of '06. I kept hoping they'd make good on their promise so there'd be at least one honest consignment site out there that was able to get their hands on real nice comics. So much for that idea....

[Calamerica]

Don't worry - someone will come along and fix all of this.

 

CAL

[tth2]

I've never completely understood why most people seem to be ok with this. If someone shill bids on eBay its a big deal. People are outraged, and thats grounds for having your eBay account removed. But if Clink, Heritage, etc does it.. its just something that is to be expected.. and for the most part its just accepted.

If the auction house is doing it, it's not just wrong, it's illegal, as evidenced by the article that Davenport posted on Mastro. If you feel that you've been the victim of shill bidding, complain to the attorney general or file a civil lawsuit. If nothing else, you'll be able to uncover records of the transactions and confirm whether any shill bidding is going on.

 

My own experience with Heritage, at least, is I doubt there's shill bidding by Heritage (whether it might be done by sellers is another question). If there is shill bidding by Heritage, it's done so completely randomly that I can't figure out what benefit they derive from it. I've won books at or near my maximums, and I've also won books well below my maximums, some at absolute steal prices. I've sold books on Heritage, and some prices were way beyond my wildest dream and others were very disappointing. On some books that I won, I knew the history of the books because they'd been previously sold on Heritage, and my max bid was above the previous Heritage sale price but my actual winning price was below. You'd think that if Heritage were going to shill any books, it would be those because they'd want to show books continuing to appreciate over multiple Heritage transactions.

 

If company employees can bid on books.. or worse yet, the books' owners can bid up the prices on their own books.. then its really not a no reserve auction...

As I said above, if this really happens, it's not just wrong or irritating, it's flat out illegal. If you really believe something's going on, you should do the hobby a favor and report it.

 

I know in one instance, last year, I was bidding on a $100,000+ comic at Heritage. I was winning going into the live auction but participating via live phone bidding anyway. The bid increment was $10,000. Suddenly Someone outbids me by something like $100 or $1000 or something way below the bid increment. Then the lady gets on the phone to me and tells me I have to raise my bid by $20k if I want the comic. A few months later the book winds up on eBay.. for sale by some auction house I'd never heard of that just happened to be located in Dallas, Tx. (The contact information for which is the exact same address as Heritage Galleries) To me thats not right. Especially when you consider that Heritage still probably took their seller fees and buyers premium for the book. To me it reeks of dishonesty.

I'm not sure what your point is here. If you think Heritage shilled you up and then won the book themselves when you wouldn't raise your bid, I'm trying to figure out how Heritage benefited from being stuck with a book which you were willing to buy for just a $100 or $1000 less. Haven't they just out-foxed themselves?

[Filter81]

Quote:

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I know in one instance, last year, I was bidding on a $100,000+ comic at Heritage. I was winning going into the live auction but participating via live phone bidding anyway. The bid increment was $10,000. Suddenly Someone outbids me by something like $100 or $1000 or something way below the bid increment. Then the lady gets on the phone to me and tells me I have to raise my bid by $20k if I want the comic. A few months later the book winds up on eBay.. for sale by some auction house I'd never heard of that just happened to be located in Dallas, Tx. (The contact information for which is the exact same address as Heritage Galleries) To me thats not right. Especially when you consider that Heritage still probably took their seller fees and buyers premium for the book. To me it reeks of dishonesty.

 

 

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I'm not sure what your point is here. If you think Heritage shilled you up and then won the book themselves when you wouldn't raise your bid, I'm trying to figure out how Heritage benefited from being stuck with a book which you were willing to buy for just a $100 or $1000 less. Haven't they just out-foxed themselves?

 

 

I honestly have no idea if Heritage shill bids their own auctions. (its entirely possible they dont.) But by keeping the bid history private, allowing employees to bid, and as far as I know not doing anything to prevent sellers from bidding... you really don't know how you reach the final bid price for each auction when everything is said and done.

 

In this particular case on the $100,000+ auction I didn't mean to imply Heritage was shill bidding. I don't believe they were in this case. I was upset because the bid increment was $10k. I got outbid by like $1k, and then had to raise my bid $20k if I wanted to get it. (And I wasn't prepared to go that high.) Then the book reappears for sale through another auction house that apparently, at the very least, has some ties to Heritage. To me, it looks like someone at Heritage saw a book that was sitting at $20,000+ below guide.. put in the cheapest price they could to keep the book... and considering they save 10% on the sellers fees anyway.. and don't have to pay the 15% buyers' fee.. wind up buying the book awefully cheap. It just seemed kind of wrong to me. Maybe because I was the one losing my chance to get a book I really wanted. To someone else maybe it doesn't sound as wrong as I thought it was when I figured out what had happened.

[RickHigh]

Does the Seller of the book on Comiclink or, even Heritage, know what your maximum bid is?

[benz]

Quote:

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I know in one instance, last year, I was bidding on a $100,000+ comic at Heritage. I was winning going into the live auction but participating via live phone bidding anyway. The bid increment was $10,000. Suddenly Someone outbids me by something like $100 or $1000 or something way below the bid increment. Then the lady gets on the phone to me and tells me I have to raise my bid by $20k if I want the comic. A few months later the book winds up on eBay.. for sale by some auction house I'd never heard of that just happened to be located in Dallas, Tx. (The contact information for which is the exact same address as Heritage Galleries) To me thats not right. Especially when you consider that Heritage still probably took their seller fees and buyers premium for the book. To me it reeks of dishonesty.

 

 

I agree with you on this...

did you by any chance question Heritage about this?

 

Benz