Web of Spiderman 18 & 24

[joe_collector]

Perhaps he didn't want to kill him yet. Maybe Venom just wanted to screw with Spidey...make him paranoid.

 

You know, you can make up an excuse for anything, but it always comes down to what explanation is more logical.

 

For me, it's clearly obvious, that while this "mystery man" from 1986 was a probably a "rejected concept" that had something to do with the alien symbiote, it was NOT the Venom that debuted in 1988.

 

I think that much is very clear, and is the main reason why that issue gets no respect.

[BradleyX2]

The only reason you'd push Peter Parker off a building, is because you wanted to kill a normal guy, and had no idea he was Spider-man. Hardly the case with Venom and therefore, it makes absolutely no sense given than context.

 

 

It wasn't really pushing him off a building, though. In WEB #24, Pete, in his civies, is crawling up the side of a building when an arm reaches out a window, pulls him off the wall, and sends him plumeting.

[Stronguy]

But almost anyone else would trigger his Spidey sense!

 

Here's the real question: If you are actually trying to kill off Spider-man (rather than Peter Parker as is obviously intended in the stories) then why push him into a subway tunnel and off a building, both of which are a piece of cake for a Spider-powered superhero. Basically, as Spider-man, he's in absolutely no danger.

 

The only reason you'd push Peter Parker off a building, is because you wanted to kill a normal guy, and had no idea he was Spider-man. Hardly the case with Venom and therefore, it makes absolutely no sense given than context.

 

I can't believe the writers would be this stupid, so therefore I think the connection is some half-baked method of covering your hass and making sure all the fanboys believe in the Marvel Universe.

 

Perhaps he didn't want to kill him yet. Maybe Venom just wanted to screw with Spidey...make him paranoid.

 

That actually fits the early Venom MO.

 

C'mon JC, you've never decided to test drive your evil super powers? We've all done it from time to time... oops, perhaps I've said too much.

[Anfield Fox]

Known about the Web 18 for a long time but never seen the Web 24. Anyone got a scan?

 

BTW these are the first cameo's of Eddie Brock - Not Venom. First appearance of Eddie Brock is in ASM 298. First cameo of Venom in 299 and first full appearance in 300. If these were counted as Venom issues then we would be saying the first appearance of Hobgoblin was when Ned Leeds first appeared in the 60's (and yes i know they changed the story but to me Leeds is the Goblin).

[ashrael]

Known about the Web 18 for a long time but never seen the Web 24. Anyone got a scan?

 

BTW these are the first cameo's of Eddie Brock - Not Venom. First appearance of Eddie Brock is in ASM 298. First cameo of Venom in 299 and first full appearance in 300. If these were counted as Venom issues then we would be saying the first appearance of Hobgoblin was when Ned Leeds first appeared in the 60's (and yes i know they changed the story but to me Leeds is the Goblin).

 

Eddie Brock would have set off Parker's Spidey sense, but the Brock-black costume combination would not have

[joe_collector]

BTW these are the first cameo's of Eddie Brock - Not Venom. First appearance of Eddie Brock is in ASM 298.

 

Good point, and I'm not seeing anything but a human arm showing, obviously.

 

I bet the dorks at Marvel will say that the colorist got it wrong.

[joe_collector]

It just hit me what's going on here.

 

I remember when Venom was first introduced, Todd Mcfarlane took the lion's share of the credit, while Michelinie was pushed to the background. Basically, it was a co-creator kind of deal, with both contributing to the character, but you know the Toddster.

 

I can only assume that attempting to tie in this "mystery man" from Web of Spider-man 18/24 was Michelinie's way of creating a retroactive fake-history, and thus laying claim to 100% of Venom's creation.

[Sal]

It just hit me what's going on here.

 

I remember when Venom was first introduced, Todd Mcfarlane took the lion's share of the credit, while Michelinie was pushed to the background. Basically, it was a co-creator kind of deal, with both contributing to the character, but you know the Toddster.

 

I can only assume that attempting to tie in this "mystery man" from Web of Spider-man 18/24 was Michelinie's way of creating a retroactive fake-history, and thus laying claim to 100% of Venom's creation.

 

seems more interesting to the reader than the guy Michelinie was prepping for... "The Pusher." mutant powers : always in the right place at the right time, superhuman-level pushing ability. once fought the Blob to a standstill...literally

[spidrvacc]

It just hit me what's going on here.

 

I remember when Venom was first introduced, Todd Mcfarlane took the lion's share of the credit, while Michelinie was pushed to the background. Basically, it was a co-creator kind of deal, with both contributing to the character, but you know the Toddster.

 

I can only assume that attempting to tie in this "mystery man" from Web of Spider-man 18/24 was Michelinie's way of creating a retroactive fake-history, and thus laying claim to 100% of Venom's creation.

 

seems more interesting to the reader than the guy Michelinie was prepping for... "The Pusher." mutant powers : always in the right place at the right time, superhuman-level pushing ability. once fought the Blob to a standstill...literally

 

 

[spidrvacc]

Interesting article

 

 

Writer David Michelinie and artist Todd McFarlane are generally credited with the character's creation, based on a number of plot ideas and concepts from various other creators, though the degree to which McFarlane should be credited with co-creating the character has been a source of dispute in the comic book industry. Venom's existence was first indicated in Web of Spider-Man #18 (September 1986), when he shoved Peter Parker in front of a subway train without his spider-sense warning him, disturbing Peter a great deal, though only Eddie's hand was on-panel. Another hint was given in Web of Spider-Man #24 (March 1987), when Peter Parker had climbed out of a high story window to change and go into action but found a black arm coming through the window and grabbing him, despite his spider-sense not warning him. He then made a partial appearance on the final page of The Amazing Spider-Man #298, in which he was obscured by shadow, before making his first full appearance on the final page of #299 (May 1988).

 

The question of who created the character of Venom became an issue of contention in 1993 when writer David Michelinie wrote in to the comic book industry magazine Wizard, which had referred to Michelinie in issue #17 (January 1993) as the "co-creator" of Venom. In his letter, which was printed in issue #21 (May 1993), Michelinie contended, despite his praise of McFarlane, without whom he conceded the character would not have attained the popularity that it did, that he was the sole creator of the character. Michelinie pointed out that Venom's earliest appearances were in Web of Spider-Man #18 (Sept. 1986), written by Michelinie and drawn by Marc Silvestri; and Web of Spider-Man #24, plotted by Michelinie, scripted by Len Kaminski, and drawn by Del Barras.

 

The character would remain unseen and inactive until Amazing Spider-Man editor Jim Salicrup required a villain for that book’s 300th issue, and after Michelinie suggested the female-symbiote character, Salicrup changed the character to a male. Michelinie then devised the Eddie Brock identity. Michelinie contends that the plots for issues #298-299, as well as the visual descriptions of the character, were written and brought by Salicrup before McFarlane was ever assigned to the book.

 

Writer Peter David corroborated Michelinie’s view in his But I Digress column in the June 4th, 1993 Comics Buyer's Guide, in which he related that Michelinie discussed the ideas behind the character with David at the time of its creation. At the time, David was the writer on The Spectacular Spider-Man who wrote the Sin Eater story from which Eddie Brock’s back story would be derived, long before McFarlane was assigned to the art duties on Amazing. Because artists who design the costumes or appearances of major characters and/or illustrate their first appearances are generally credited as the co-creators of them, Venom represents a complex situation, because the costume from which Venom's appearance is derived was not designed by McFarlane, and the only aspect of Venom’s appearance to which McFarlane contributed was giving the character an evil looking mouth.

 

Erik Larsen, who followed McFarlane as artist on Amazing, and who added the pointy teeth and tongue as well as the green drool to Venom's appearance (and who would go on to found Image Comics with McFarlane), responded to Michelinie's letter with one of his own that was printed in Wizard #23 (July 1993), in which he dismissed Michelinie's contributions to the character, arguing that Michelinie merely "swiped" the pre-existing symbiote and its powers to place it on a character whose motivations were poorly conceived, one-dimensional, unbelievable, and clichéd. Larsen also argued that it was McFarlane’s rendition of the character that made it sellable.

 

The pre-existing elements that dealt with the symbiote alien costume itself - to which Michelinie did not contribute - have also been noted. For example, editor Jim Shooter came up with the idea of switching Spider-Man to a black-and-white costume, possibly influenced by the intended costume design for the new Spider-Woman. Artists Mike Zeck and Rick Leonardi, as well as others, designed the black-and-white costume. Writer/artist John Byrne asserts on his website that the idea for a costume made of self-healing biological material was one he originated when he was the artist on Iron Fist to explain how that character’s costume was constantly being torn and then apparently repaired by the next issue, explaining that he ended up not using the idea on that title, but that Roger Stern later asked him if he could use the idea for Spider-Man's alien costume. Stern in turn plotted the issue in which the costume first appeared but then moved on and it was writer Tom DeFalco and artist Ron Frenz who had established that the costume was a sentient alien being and also that it was vulnerable to high sonic energy during their run on The Amazing Spider-Man that preceded Michelinie's. Regardless, Peter David's position is that Michelinie is the sole creator, since the idea of creating a separate character using the alien symbiote was Michelinie’s, as was Eddie Brock's backstory, and that without the idea to create such a character, the character would not have existed.

 

It is perhaps not coincidental that this dispute arose at a time when artists such as McFarlane and Larsen were enjoying a great deal of popularity and clout with readers, and exploiting their popularity by publishing creator-owned books with their new company Image Comics, and it is possible that this issue was a subtext of the greater debate over the importance of writers versus artists that was being waged in the industry at the time. It should be noted that during the time which Todd McFarlane was producing artwork for Marvel, the comics giant advertised the character as a creation of McFarlane's, and Michelinie had no opposition to sharing credit as co-creator. It was not until McFarlane's departure from Marvel that any controversy began arise from the Amazing Spider-Man creative team. Furthermore, most point to the decline of Venom's character in the early 90s, after McFarlane had left Marvel, as indication that he had some creative input into the character. Whereas the Spawn character walked a similar line of psychopathology and heroism successfully for the first few years of release, Venom's character only grew more convoluted with each subsequent story that he was featured in.

 

In any case, Venom was created under a work-for-hire contract, and Marvel owns all rights to the character.

[spidrvacc]

 

 

The article did mention it was a black arm in Web 24

[kidcolt]

Geez someone must have a scan of the arm in #24

[spidrvacc]

 

Here is the page from Web 24

 

[spidrvacc]

 

Closeup

 

[kidcolt]

And what happens next??? Do Peter go in looking for who did it etc...

[joe_collector]

I think that one is obviously supposed to be a "character in shadow", plus it's not Venom or even the Symbiote, as there are no white marks on the hand.

 

Next.

[spidrvacc]

 

 

Not to change the subject, anyone ever catch the thor issue where they snuck Clark Kent into a few panels. Here is the page from Thor 341. Just thought it was cool.

 

 

 

[spidrvacc]

 

Here is the next page of WEB 24

 

[joe_collector]

I'm betting it was "that punk Ace", or maybe Carrion, or maybe Gwen Stacy's clone or maybe Aunt May, or Professor Warren, or.....

[spidrvacc]

 

Hey Joe , I forgot to scan the Variant Issue. Think this is a little more conclusive