Heritage Auction Baltimore....1st session..Friday Sept 8

[FFB]

I remember our last friendly debate about this a few months ago.

I think it went off on a tangent where I forgot what the original issue was.

I think thats whats happening here again.

What im saying[trying to say] is that the spread between restored books and unrestored books[price wise] is still increasing in favor of the unrestored books.

For example ,there is an enormous difference in price between a mod restored [6.0]Superman # 1 and a unrestored Superman #1[6.0] and that spread is increasing every year.

 

I understand your talking about comparing apples to apples[restored books to restored books.

 

Well, for high grade ultra-keys like Detective #27, it's probably true, but since high grade copies of Action 1/Tec 27/Superman 1 don't sell often enough to draw comparisons, it's pure conjecture. However, I agree that you're probably right about that. I wouldn't recommend that anyone restore any golden age ultra key if the book is currently unrestored, unless it is in such bad shape (i.e., PR condition) that the restoration is helping keep the book complete or intact. But for GA ultra key books that are already restored, they seem to be a pretty good investment over time.

[FFB]

Were you interested in anything in the Auction?

Its still going on so I understand you may want to keep it to yourself now.

 

Yes, I bid on the Crime Does Not Pay #22 (Church) and the Amazing Stories (August 1928) but (as expected) both went for well above what I was willing to pay.

[sacentaur]

As far as "ridiculous" prices being realized in this (and others) auction, I wonder who the underbidders are on some of these big ticket items. Is it perhaps a representative from Heritage?

 

Indeed, does anyone else besides me see a conflict of "secret" maximum bids being known to the auctioneer (i.e., Heritage), and yet they are allowed to bid on their own lots?

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies

[lou_fine]

I was 800.00 dollars off my prediction that the Detective 27 would go for 35k.

It sold for 35.8 k.

Like I said, REstored is not making a comback[yet anyway]

 

I know you will always find people who will find evidence to the contrary but the point is you cant measure all the people who NEVER bid because it was restored. That is the evidence you cant find on paper that is controlling the pricing... That is the hidden card

 

First of all Peter, nice call on the prediction of final hammer price.

 

BUT....

 

Your prediction may have been right on, but that doesn't support your conclusion that "restored is not making a comeback."

 

This book, which is probably a Moderate (P) 4.0 (with trimming), sold for $1,300 more than a Moderate (P) 7.0 sold for in 2003. And if you look at the Heritage archived scans of the Moderate (P) 7.0 that sold in November 2003, you can see that the Moderate (P) 7.0: (a) is a MUCH nicer looking book, (b) isn't trimmed, and © has much higher quality restoration than the Moderate (P) 4.0 (trimmed) does. Yet the Moderate (P) 4.0 (trimmed) sold for $1,300 more than the Moderate (P) 7.0 did almost three years ago. I think this Moderate (P) 4.0 (trimmed) sale actually proves that restored book values are on the rise compared to years past.

 

I will grant you that unrestored VG would have sold for a lot more, but so what? You need to compare apples to apples (restored sales now vs. restored sales of prior years) if you want to talk about whether restored book values are on the rise or on the decline.

 

Peter;

 

I am in complete agreement with Scott's analysis above.

 

It should also be pointed out that the final price realized was still at over 55% to the VG guide price. Not a bad price considering that the book was also trimmed and had a tiny hole throughout the entire book. On top of that, it was also uncertified meaning that the buyer would also have to factor in the risk of additional undetected resto work along with possible overgrading.

 

While checking the 'Tec book, I also noticed a restored F/VF copy of Complete Book of Comics & Funnies #1 (Lot #50182) in the catalogue. Noticed it since I happen to have one of these in my collection. To my surprise, this non-key no-demand raw book with bug chews and amateur resto was still able to go for over 2X guide.

 

A few years ago, weren't slabbed books with even slight resto only able to sell in the marketplace at much deeper discounts than the 55% to guide that the 'Tec 27 managed to achieved in this go-round.

[action1kid]

I understand. Compare Apples to Apples.

[action1kid]

That would be a terrible blow to there reputation if that were true.

But are your saying that it is a possibility, a probability or a FACT that they do this? [Run up there Auctions]

[FFB]

That would be a terrible blow to there reputation if that were true.

But are your saying that it is a possibility, a probability or a FACT that they do this? [Run up there Auctions]

 

It looks like he is questioning whether it might be true, not that he has any information that it is going on.

 

I'd be surprised if they did this, because it would be illegal and someone would go to jail. And it would just be a matter of time until a disgruntled ex-employee (or even disgruntled current employee who didn't get a raise or got mad at someone else or just wanted the attention) blew the whistle on them. So I think it's unlikely. What seems more likely to me is that a lot of people knew that a famous collector's collection was on the block and that there was a ton of great stuff in this auction, and, as a result, it drew in a lot of bidders.

[action1kid]

A few people have told me that they thought I was run up.True? I dont know. How do I know it is not the people who were the bidders that were behind me and lost telling me that? So you see it can be either or.

I figured that piece on a low end going for 22k and a high end of 48k

[bluechip]

On the rise of restored books:

 

A trimmed copy of Detrective 27 virtually identical to this one in restroration and trimming sold four years ago for 20,000. And it sold to a dealer who undoubtedly resold it for much more.

 

The heritage copy sold for more than 75% more, and it, too, will likely resell to someone else for much more.

 

All of which is not to say an unrestored 27 shouldn't go for much more. It should. And DOES. But when the argument seems to indicate that a restored first appearance of Batman just simply can't be worth as much as a tiny stack of high grade books nobody outside the hobby has ever even heard of, then I have to say the mania 'gainst restoration may be losing a bit of rational perspective.

 

Look at what restored copies of silver age marvels are going for on ebay and you'll see that civilian collectors People who become interested in old comics don't usually do so because they're intrigued at how much gloss the cover has or how sharp the corners are, or whether it came from a particular collector, or even whether it's unrestored. Usually, they become interested because they're imprressed that it's the first appearance of an iconic character. The other factors may affect how much they think it's worth. But not to point of thinking it's foolish to buy a restored first appearance of Batman, yet savvy to pay many times guide for high grade copies of Ccco the Magic Monkey,

 

This book was somewhat hammered by appearing in an auction that catered mostly to high grade collectors, many of whom either have the book already and some of whom don't have it but will only buy things that are high grade and unrestored.

 

It was also hammered because it was not just restored but TRIMMED, and common sense would give some pause to people even if they don't mind restoration because it's not simply that it's restored, but ithat a piece of the cover and every single page is missing.

[action1kid]

I agree with your opinion on this scott. They would be done in exactly in that fashion.[as in many business as we have seen on the Big Board]...

There is a possibility that Im being pumped by the bidders that were behind me.

Im not saying all of them. Just a thought. What the hell. I dont know.

[sacentaur]

There is a possibility that Im being pumped by the bidders that were behind me. Im not saying all of them. Just a thought. What the hell. I dont know.

 

Peter, it sure would be interesting to know who those supposed underbidders were, wouldn't it?

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies

[lou_fine]

The prices for most Mile High's got premiums like they were accurately grade plus a huge Mile High premium. Seems like they would have done worse if they had them CGC'd.

 

I completely agree. CGC graded Mile Highs seem to go for less.

 

I've actually found out the answer as to why this auction has done so super well with all of their raw books as opposed to the regualr auctions with the CGC certified books.

 

This is based upon a quote by tth2 from the September Heritage Auction thread from a few weeks ago:

 

I said this kind of jokingly before, but for all the board members out there that have railed against the manipulation of old Edgar's books and the evils of pressing in general, it's time to put your money where your mouth is and buy up a few raw MHs to keep them away from the pressing mafia.

 

Maybe the McLaughlin heirs were onto something when they decided not to slab their books unless Heritage was willing to pick up the tab. May be the start of a new trend as Heritage must have also figured that their own grading (or overgrading) would more than offset any benefits to be gained from CGC slabbing.

 

If I was Tim, I would immediately pick up the phone and demand that Heritage ripped the CGC slabs off those Duck and SA DC books prior to selling them off in the November Heritage auction. May as well go for the big dollars now with the Heritage grading as opposed to the small dollars with the CGC graded slabs.

[action1kid]

Yes indeed.

[action1kid]

There is no question I paid in the high end range, but it was not out of my calculated range. It was the upper end of its anticipated value for me.

[Filter81]

It looks like he is questioning whether it might be true, not that he has any information that it is going on.

 

I'd be surprised if they did this, because it would be illegal and someone would go to jail. And it would just be a matter of time until a disgruntled ex-employee (or even disgruntled current employee who didn't get a raise or got mad at someone else or just wanted the attention) blew the whistle on them. So I think it's unlikely. What seems more likely to me is that a lot of people knew that a famous collector's collection was on the block and that there was a ton of great stuff in this auction, and, as a result, it drew in a lot of bidders.

 

The facts that we know to be true are that some Heritage employees/owners have the ability to see what peoples' "secret" maximum bids are. These same employees/owners, have admitted to participating in and bidding on these auctions on a regular basis. (Which by the way, for some reason is legal in Texas.)

 

The part that is currently just a guess is whether or not Heritage employees/owners use the information that we know they have access to when they bid against you in their auctions. (They are pretty much on the honor system I guess.)

 

Many of the people I have talked to who are very well connected in this hobby seem to have a very strong opinion regarding whether or not this type of shill bidding happens. I've heard stories about things that were supposedly said in confidence by people who work for or used to work for Heritage, and in pretty much every Heritage auction there wind up being at least one or two big items that have questionable-at-best bidding histories.

 

As far as I know though, whether or not Heritage actually does this has never been conclusively proven. Assuming they ever got caught though, I don't think anyone would go to jail. While I don't know many of the details, I do know it is legal for auction house employees/owners to participate in their own auctions in Texas. If they ever got caught doing anything wrong, they could probably just claim they were placing bids on items for their own personal collections. At worst, the owners of Heritage would probably have to pay back a large amount of money in fines to avoid prosecution, similar to what happened when Heritage galleries was investigated back in the '90s.

[lou_fine]

The facts that we know to be true are that some Heritage employees/owners have the ability to see what peoples' "secret" maximum bids are. These same employees/owners, have admitted to participating in and bidding on these auctions on a regular basis. (Which by the way, for some reason is legal in Texas.)

 

While I don't know many of the details, I do know it is legal for auction house employees/owners to participate in their own auctions in Texas.

 

Filter;

 

I have also heard that the auction laws are a lot more flexible in the state of Texas. Isn't this one of the reasons why Comic Heaven (John Veryzl) relocated to Texas, after apparently getting into some possible regulatory problems in California with his totally closed auctions.

 

Certainly something to think about when a auction house just so happens to reside in a state with standards and regulations that strongly favor the house as opposed to the individual bidders.

[skybolt]

Well I lost out on all my Mile High bids, but at least I got the book I really wanted from this auction. My favorite Rangers Comics cover and my first Gerber 8.

 

[batman_fan]

Well I lost out on all my Mile High bids, but at least I got the book I really wanted from this auction. My favorite Rangers Comics cover and my first Gerber 8.

 

<img src="http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7485/rangersoq7.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

 

Very cool! I love the cover and you can't beat the grade. How was the price?

[skybolt]

Well I lost out on all my Mile High bids, but at least I got the book I really wanted from this auction. My favorite Rangers Comics cover and my first Gerber 8.

 

<img src="http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7485/rangersoq7.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

 

Very cool! I love the cover and you can't beat the grade. How was the price?

 

$1434 with BP (about 3x guide). The same book sold for around $2,300 in a 2002 Heritage auction.

[action1kid]

Congradulations !

SUPERMAN # 1 crippin went for 35.8 k. I thought it would get a little more. [blue label 3.0