Heritage Auction Baltimore....1st session..Friday Sept 8

[podboy66]

Its the best time of year to come to Banff. Not likely to have much luck finding a Marvel Mystery Annual, I've only found around 5 Timely's locally in over 15 years.

[esquirecomics]

Talk of the Con today was last night's auction. Word was that Geppi was bidding by phone as aggressively as necessary to acquire as many of the Church books as possible.

 

Also, word was that a second phone bidder dueled with Geppi on many of the books - Mr. Fischler, perhaps?

 

I didn't make it to Fri night's session though talked to some who were there. I was there for a short time tonight (maybe 100 lots, had to go to the CGC forum dinner which was very enjoyable).

 

According to Ed Jaster the underbidder on Peter's Reign of Superman (congrats on the pick-up Pete!! ) was an e-bay bidder. I don't know the identity of the person. Why someone bids on a Heritage auction through e-bay, especially with that kind of money involved, is beyond me.

 

Last night's big winner and probably tonight's in terms of volume was Steve Geppi. In fact, from my vantage point the majority of the bidding on every book I witnessed was pretty much between John Verzyl and Steve Geppi. The auctioneer even commented that the next time John would be in Dallas he was going to take him out to dinner, and then make Steve pay! Meaning, at least as to how I interpreted it, thanks guys for making us so much money!!!

 

Also, as far as I could tell, the New Adventure #26 had no floor or phone bids. It was won with the opening bid per the Internet.

 

Very interesting to watch a Heritage auction live. Never done that before.

[tth2]

Four Color #386 in 9.2 for $11,950! That`s 6X Guide for a 9.2 book! Even if the buyer thought there might be a crack and resub opportunity, is there any upside left at that price, even if the book gets a 9.4 on resub? Everytime I think Duck prices can`t get any higher, I am proven so-o-o wrong.

 

Well, good news for the underbidder is that a 9.4 copy will be up on Heritage in November!

 

This 9.2 copy looked particularly nice. If someone owns another CGC 9.2 copy and will sell it privately for ~$10K please PM me. Has to have the same eye appeal, though.

I might be able to help you out on this after the November auction.

 

Btw., I am sure that the buyer could not care less about "investment potential". Only someone who cares a lot more about Disney books than money would pay this price.

No doubt you're right. Nonetheless, the price was stunning, particularly considering that there are 2 9.4 copies in the census and it's fairly well known amongst HG duck collectors that one of those 9.4 copies will be coming up in November.

[tth2]

Four Color #386 in 9.2 for $11,950! That`s 6X Guide for a 9.2 book! Even if the buyer thought there might be a crack and resub opportunity, is there any upside left at that price, even if the book gets a 9.4 on resub? Everytime I think Duck prices can`t get any higher, I am proven so-o-o wrong.

 

It was a sweet copy...does every book have to be purchased considering whether or not there is any "upside left at that price"? I would hope not all high end collectors are really investors, but from what I've seen on the boards here over the years, I'm not so sure.

As I was explaining to Ronm3 at dinner the other night, my own buying habits in the past would certainly make me the last one to ever chide someone for overpaying for a book. Many of the books that I purchased in the past had absolutely no upside and probably only a lot of downside left in the price.

 

And yet, there is overpaying and then there is OVERPAYING. My crazy buys were always reserved for the very best copy that I was very doubtful would be topped, ever. Here, we've got 6X for a 9.2 copy when there are at least 2 better copies already in the census.

 

I definitely appreciate that the McLaughlin copy is a very sharp copy, which is why when it was floating around $6K in the bidding another collector and I were speculating that it might be targeted by arbitrageurs hoping to play the crack-and-resub game. All I was saying was that at $12K, it's unlikely that it was an arbitrage play because none of those players would've seen enough upside remaining to risk paying that much for it.

[Legion of Goom]

Hey everyone...I'm new on the boards but I figured this would be as good a time as any to chime in. I'm pretty bummed about this Heritage auction. I won the Internet bidding on the All-Story, and had my fingers crossed for today...long story short, Heritage wasn't the quickest to update their site once all the bids came in for it. I checked it out once the floor bidding was done (albeit in a hurry) and I thought I actually had it won because it said on the tracking page that the floor bidding was closed and I was still listed as the winning bidder. Alright! I knew I'd have to sell or trade alot of stuff to make it work, but I had figured out weeks ago it'd be worth it. At this point, I'm riding pretty high. So, I leave to take my girlfriend home out of necessity (word to the wise: taking the toll road out of South Bend after a Notre Dame home game isn't the best way for good times to be had by all). 3 hours later, I get home, and sign on to see the book that was the primary reason I didn't commit about 8 acts of road rage...only to find out not only did I not win, I absolutely got obliterated by the floor bid. Ok, ok..I can accept the losing by 24K part...but I'll be a monkey's uncle if the delivery weren't a swift kick to the testicles.

 

 

My CAF Gallery

[tth2]

Talk of the Con today was last night's auction. Word was that Geppi was bidding by phone as aggressively as necessary to acquire as many of the Church books as possible.

Good for Steve! This was not a surprise though, as quite a few people were predicting this might happen.

 

Also, word was that a second phone bidder dueled with Geppi on many of the books - Mr. Fischler, perhaps?

Haven't you been reading all the conspiracy theories on this thread? Surely it's obvious that Halperin & Co. have pulled a big con on Geppi.

[tth2]

In fact, from my vantage point the majority of the bidding on every book I witnessed was pretty much between John Verzyl and Steve Geppi.

Mark, please stop introducing actual facts based on evidence that you witnessed with your own two eyes and heard with your own two ears. There is simply no way that Sacentaur and Filter81 and all of their wild allegations could be so completely wrong!

[Legion of Goom]

There is a possibility that Im being pumped by the bidders that were behind me. Im not saying all of them. Just a thought. What the hell. I dont know.

 

Peter, it sure would be interesting to know who those supposed underbidders were, wouldn't it?

 

STEVE

 

 

Always looking for Larson copies

 

 

If you want to see something interesting, Check this out . This is the bidding history of a Boris Vallejo painting Heritage listed on eBay...where you can see the underbidders. Notice that the brand new, zero feedback name was created specifically to capture the EXACT $4500 spread between the runner up bidder and the winner near the close of the auction...something that would be almost impossible to guess without inside information. I let the winner know he might've been overpaying and pointed him to the page- I think he already knew something was fishy. Heritage wound up re-listing the exact same piece, with a dramatically different strike price and the winner wound up saving a cool $4900 as you can see here .

 

There's no way of knowing how often they "juice the spread", but at least on Ebay it's there for everyone to see. That's a red flag if I've ever seen one. Hopefully this helps out someone!

 

Earl Brown-Orth

 

[sacentaur]

In fact, from my vantage point the majority of the bidding on every book I witnessed was pretty much between John Verzyl and Steve Geppi.

Mark, please stop introducing actual facts based on evidence that you witnessed with your own two eyes and heard with your own two ears. There is simply no way that Sacentaur and Filter81 and all of their wild allegations could be so completely wrong!

 

Uh counselor (tth2), it's usually a good idea to weigh all the witnesses and all the evidence before rendering judgment, wouldn't you say?

 

What you call wild allegations, others would call facts:

 

1. Besides you the bidder, Heritage is the only other entity who has access to your "secret" bids.

 

2. Incredibly, Texas law actually allows the stakeholders of Heritage and their employees to bid on lots in their own auction.

 

3. The more that a lot sells for, the more money Heritage makes.

 

4. We generally have no idea who the underbidders are on the lots (unless we get some excellent investigative work like Mindfreak52 above - nice work, Earl).

 

Considering all of the above - and the four decades long flim-flam history of the co-owner of Heritage (re: Forbes) - are you really saying that you are willing to place your trust in them via blind faith?

 

Good Grief, talk about having a fool for a client...

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies

[tth2]

In fact, from my vantage point the majority of the bidding on every book I witnessed was pretty much between John Verzyl and Steve Geppi.

Mark, please stop introducing actual facts based on evidence that you witnessed with your own two eyes and heard with your own two ears. There is simply no way that Sacentaur and Filter81 and all of their wild allegations could be so completely wrong!

 

Uh counselor, it's usually a good idea to weigh all the witnesses and all the evidence before rendering judgment, wouldn't you say?

 

What you call wild allegations, others would call facts:

 

1. Besides you the bidder, Heritage is the only other entity who has access to your "secret" bids.

 

2. Incredibly, Texas law actually allows the stakeholders of Heritage and their employees to bid on lots in their own auction.

 

3. The more that a lot sells for, the more money Heritage makes.

 

4. We generally have no idea who the underbidders are on the lots.

 

Considering all of the above - and the four decades long flim-flam history of the co-owner of Heritage (re: Forbes) - are you really saying that you are willing to place your trust in them via blind faith?

 

Good Grief, talk about having a fool for a client...

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies

I have no problem with the facts that you lay out. I do have a problem with you making unfounded allegations based upon those facts, absent any hard evidence.

 

Considering the number of people who have left Heritage's employ over the past few years, surely at least one disgruntled ex-employee would have spilled the beans on Heritage by now, don't you think? This is what I mean by hard evidence.

 

So what we are left with is the following facts:

 

1. No actual evidence of shill bidding by Heritage

 

2. Eye witness account by Mark Zaid that many of the McLaughlin MH books were driven up by Verzyl and Geppi. I haven't seen you make a post withdrawing your accusations of bid rigging by Heritage with respect to those books yet...

 

3. My own personal experience of winning many books, including key books, at well below my max bid. Just from not shill bidding me up, Heritage has probably left somewhere in the neighborhood of $100K on the table. Now why in the world would they do that if they're the bunch of con men that you claim they are?

[sacentaur]

It's too early to draw a definitive conclusion (either way) on the Baltimore auction, isn't it tth2? Look at the totality of the case history, instead of just one snapshot (that isn't even developed yet).

 

It's nonsense to presume that every single lot is manipulated (Heritage isn't stupid) - I've won lots below my max too, but then I doubt too many folk care about my winning bid on a G+ copy of Marvel the Wonder Bunny # 8 (hey, at least it was unrestored!).

 

Again, you're making something up based your own assumptions... and you know what they say when you assume.

 

If the police catch a suspect who robbed someone at gunpoint, would you step forward and say he was innocent because he didn't rob you and then insinuate the victim is a liar? You are a real lawyer, right?

 

Finally, how do you reply to Earl's ebay expose (hey, that's kinda catchy) above? More wild accusations I suppose?

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies

[Legion of Goom]

 

So what we are left with is the following facts:

 

1. No actual evidence of shill bidding by Heritage

 

2. Eye witness account by Mark Zaid that many of the McLaughlin MH books were driven up by Verzyl and Geppi. I haven't seen you make a post withdrawing your accusations of bid rigging by Heritage with respect to those books yet...

 

3. My own personal experience of winning many books, including key books, at well below my max bid. Just from not shill bidding me up, Heritage has probably left somewhere in the neighborhood of $100K on the table. Now why in the world would they do that if they're the bunch of con men that you claim they are?

 

I wanted to post a simple warning, and while I posted my opinion, I'd like for everyone who checks out the links I posted to draw their own conclusion. What I do know is that the Boris links I posted also were the only ones I could still find- I had no luck finding the records for the Amazon Rider or Crystal Gryphon paintings he did that Heritage sold on Ebay.

 

Also, Heritage isn't stupid- and juicing the spread all the time would be a stupid move. Doing it once in awhile where thousands of dollars are concerned, however, could easily get chalked up to "regular ol' auction volatility". However, you also can't prove it's never happened just the same as I can't prove if, or when, it happens. I do know they were prepared to charge that winner the full $14k for his painting if he weren't sharp enough to question it, and even then when the shill was pointed out they relisted the entire auction instead of just giving the book out at the real winning bid. I can't prove anything; but if that doesn't at least make you question things a little bit, I give you credit because you're more trusting than I am.

 

At the end of the day, Heritage will never get investigated because the simple fact is they can only juice up to the maximum bid...which means the winner would've been fine paying that amount anyways. From their standpoint, it'd simply be taking all of what a collector/dealer was willing to offer in the first place as opposed to just enough to win.

 

Earl Brown-Orth

 

PS Thanks for the positive feedback Sacentaur- if I find anything else fishy, I'll be sure to post it for you and the rest of the board to check out.

[Aman619]

Im listening to this back and forth and will withhold judgement for now. Human nature dictates that peoole dont like to leave money on the table when its easy to scoop it up.

 

Im wondering at one aspect of this idea. Does Heritage pump up the prices UP TO their "values" so that nobody "steals" a win for way under FMV, in esense adding a reserve on a no-reserve auction (and protecting the seller, the market and making a few hunded more)?? Or, pump it up BEYOND that expected value, to a record price, and squeezing every dollar out of a collector's "win at all costs" super high would-be record price that the bidder does NOT expect to be necessary to pay. (Meaning if a bidder puts in for 20K on a 10K book simply to ensure he beats every other sane bidder while risking the posssibility that someone else is doing the same thing. Auctions of course are a risk that you will meet your maniac match on any lot if you're unlucky). I have less of a problem with the first scenario...even tho it might also be illegal.

 

One fault I find with the "proof" of shilling is that it was done on Ebay where records DO exist.. Does the theory of Heritage pumping extend to a network of secret comunication of the phone bid takers on the floor too? If not, the solution would be to wait until the floor bidding, even on little lots, to keep your intentions private until the last moments.

[Aman619]

Hey everyone...I'm new on the boards but I figured this would be as good a time as any to chime in. I'm pretty bummed about this Heritage auction. I won the Internet bidding on the All-Story, and had my fingers crossed for today...long story short, Heritage wasn't the quickest to update their site once all the bids came in for it. I checked it out once the floor bidding was done (albeit in a hurry) and I thought I actually had it won because it said on the tracking page that the floor bidding was closed and I was still listed as the winning bidder. Alright! I knew I'd have to sell or trade alot of stuff to make it work, but I had figured out weeks ago it'd be worth it. At this point, I'm riding pretty high. So, I leave to take my girlfriend home out of necessity (word to the wise: taking the toll road out of South Bend after a Notre Dame home game isn't the best way for good times to be had by all). 3 hours later, I get home, and sign on to see the book that was the primary reason I didn't commit about 8 acts of road rage...only to find out not only did I not win, I absolutely got obliterated by the floor bid. Ok, ok..I can accept the losing by 24K part...but I'll be a monkey's uncle if the delivery weren't a swift kick to the testicles.

 

 

My CAF Gallery

 

that sucks. I think many of us have been there too! I agere it would be great if their website were 100% up-to-date with immediate results posted. But, now you see it isnt and will not jump to conclusions, so chalk it up to a learning experience as to the sepcifics of how Heritage's website functions....

 

..but did you really expect the premiere lot (showcased on the cover) to NOT get floor bids? originally. I thought 35 was gonna be enough, too. Fraid not. Next time get on the phone and protect your bid when you're going after a high profile piece like that. But if 35K was your top, its smater NOT to get on the phone and risk ego, excitement and everything else force someone to pay more than they wanted.

[action1kid]

Thank you Mark.

Once again thank you for this bit of information.

 

Peter

[esquirecomics]

Thanks to Bill Ponseti for letting me know about this board. Talk about late to the party...sheesh!

 

Well, now that I'm finally here, I just wanted to say hi to everyone and check out some of the recent posts. As usual, I am always interested in buying Gold and Silver Age books, so drop me a line anytime.

 

re: Batimore Heritage...what really blew me away was how much that Marvel Mystery annual went for.....something like $25k??!?!?!?! Good LORD. And to think I used to own one of those 10 years ago.....arghhhhhh! (although mine probably wasn't the "variant".

 

Oh...someone mentioned my Detective 10? Drop me a line....

 

vtcomics OUT

 

Phil, its been quite awhile. You were one of only a small handful of comic people I was in touch (via e-bay) with during my no comic book decade of the 1990s. Good to see you now on the boards!

[Vtcomics]

thanks and glad to be here. Now that I am unemployed, I have time to hang out and chat with you guys (and gals!) Nice web site and listing of books, kudos!

 

http://vtcomics.itgo.com/index.html

[Filter81]

Mark, please stop introducing actual facts based on evidence that you witnessed with your own two eyes and heard with your own two ears. There is simply no way that Sacentaur and Filter81 and all of their wild allegations could be so completely wrong!

 

Wow. Very, very uncool tth

 

This post is extremely dishonest on your part. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but all I have seen on this board so far are people posting facts that are KNOWN to be true about Heritage and allowing people to draw their own conclusions.

 

I have personally posted dozens of very lengthy posts on this subject. Can you point me to three examples of "all my wild allegations"? Please list a few examples of something about Heritage that I have presented as a fact that can not be proved to be true. All I have tried to do is post the facts that are known to be true on this subject, and allow people to make their own decisions. The whole point is to make sure everyone has the same information and the playing field is a little bit more level. What exactly is your problem with that? Its not like I've ever posted "well, I know Heritage does this, but I can't prove it so take my word for it." If ANY of my previous posts are inconsistent with this, please let me know immediately, because that would mean I made a mistake, and I would like to edit or remove those posts immediately.

 

As far as the Mile Highs in this auction, where was it posted that Heritage was definitely shill bidding on them all? (Did I miss a post?) I actually happen to know for sure who the high bidder and who the underbidder were on a number of those books. (In addition to the information that Mark provided.) I would be very surprised if I ever found out that Heritage had placed any shill bids on those particular books. In fact I have said before that it would be very difficult for Heritage to shill bid against phone bidders. Assuming for one second that Heritage DID shill bid their auctions (while it is known that Heritage employees and owners do bid on their own auctions its never been proven that they ever do so to bump the prices up), but assuming that they do, the best way to avoid this would be to bid over the phone. If you bid over the phone, Heritage can't know your max bid. As a result, shill bidding on these lots is highly unlikely.

 

As far as your argument that since there are some books you have bought in the past from Heritage where no shill bids were placed... therefore you know Heritage does not shill bid on any of their auctions and any evidence to the contrary is nothing but "wild allegations"... I don't completely follow your logic. How long do you think Heritage would be in business if EVERY time a bid was placed, they shilled it up exactly to the person's maximum bid? Do you really think they would try to do this with every book in every auction and just hope no one notices?

 

You know that Comic-Keys sometimes sells unrestored books right? And that not all of Ewert's books were trimmed? Based on your logic, does this mean there is no way they could have done anything wrong with any of the books they have sold? Why not start buying more from them? I bet you could get some pretty good deals..

[Aman619]

psssttt.. Tim was KIDDING, his tone read to me to be facetious, and not at all an attack as you seem to have taken it. He just left off the telltale smiley...

[Filter81]

psssttt.. Tim was KIDDING, his tone read to me to be facetious, and not at all an attack as you seem to have taken it. He just left off the telltale smiley...

 

I don't get it