Heritage Auction Baltimore....1st session..Friday Sept 8

[sacentaur]

psssttt.. Tim was KIDDING, his tone read to me to be facetious, and not at all an attack as you seem to have taken it. He just left off the telltale smiley...

 

That's not the impression I rec'd at all...are we reading the same thread aman619?

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies

[lou_fine]

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic a little bit.

 

Did anybody noticed the very agressive prices that some of the puls were able to generate? I had placed a few bids on some of the Saucys and ended up with the high closing Internet bid. Went on this morning only to see that some of the final prices were almost 10X my high bid. Must have been a lot of floor action on some of these pulps.

 

What's really interesting is that these prices were realized for only VG/F low grade copies. I can just imagine what some of the high grade copies from a couple of large collection found in the north west about 15 years ago would be worth in today's market. Should have picked some of them up when they were available then.

[skybolt]

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic a little bit.

 

Did anybody noticed the very agressive prices that some of the puls were able to generate? I had placed a few bids on some of the Saucys and ended up with the high closing Internet bid. Went on this morning only to see that some of the final prices were almost 10X my high bid. Must have been a lot of floor action on some of these pulps.

 

What's really interesting is that these prices were realized for only VG/F low grade copies. I can just imagine what some of the high grade copies from a couple of large collection found in the north west about 15 years ago would be worth in today's market. Should have picked some of them up when they were available then.

 

I noticed this as well. The funny thing is that initially I was laughing at Heritage's value predictions for these books, until of course the floor/phone bidding ended.

[tth2]

I was going to reply to your post, but then since I noticed you had joined recently and only had 21 posts, I decided to take a quick scan through your previous posts. Starting from your second post, you`ve been very critical of Heritage and I`d say roughly half of your posts thus far have been attacks on Heritage. Plus there was a post going out of your way to criticize some well known dealers.

 

Boy, it sure seems like deja vu all over again. Like the M.O. of a certain ex-board member who`s been booted off these boards repeatedly for "bugging" people. Too soon to say for certain if you`re our friend visiting yet again, but may I suggest that if you ARE a "real" board member, perhaps you should establish some credibility here before pigeon-holing yourself as a one-note wonder whose only interest is to perpetuate some sort of hostile agenda.

[tth2]

Also, Heritage isn't stupid- and juicing the spread all the time would be a stupid move.

So you think Heritage isn`t stupid, and yet you think they would shill up an auction by shill bidding through eBay, where it`s so much easier to spot a shill bidder?

 

Gee, two new posters coming on simultaneously to form a nice anti-Heritage tag team. What a coincidence!

[tth2]

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but all I have seen on this board so far are people posting facts that are KNOWN to be true about Heritage and allowing people to draw their own conclusions.

 

I have personally posted dozens of very lengthy posts on this subject. Can you point me to three examples of "all my wild allegations"? Please list a few examples of something about Heritage that I have presented as a fact that can not be proved to be true. All I have tried to do is post the facts that are known to be true on this subject, and allow people to make their own decisions. The whole point is to make sure everyone has the same information and the playing field is a little bit more level. What exactly is your problem with that? Its not like I've ever posted "well, I know Heritage does this, but I can't prove it so take my word for it." If ANY of my previous posts are inconsistent with this, please let me know immediately, because that would mean I made a mistake, and I would like to edit or remove those posts immediately.

You must be kidding me. Here`s your original post on the topic. Perhaps you don`t flat out say "I conclude...", but you`re doing a bit more than just "allowing people to draw their own conclusions." You have done the equivalent of drawing up a map with big red arrows that points very clearly to a location that says "GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!"

 

"The facts that we know to be true are that some Heritage employees/owners have the ability to see what peoples' "secret" maximum bids are. These same employees/owners, have admitted to participating in and bidding on these auctions on a regular basis. (Which by the way, for some reason is legal in Texas.)

 

The part that is currently just a guess is whether or not Heritage employees/owners use the information that we know they have access to when they bid against you in their auctions. (They are pretty much on the honor system I guess.)

 

Many of the people I have talked to who are very well connected in this hobby seem to have a very strong opinion regarding whether or not this type of shill bidding happens. I've heard stories about things that were supposedly said in confidence by people who work for or used to work for Heritage, and in pretty much every Heritage auction there wind up being at least one or two big items that have questionable-at-best bidding histories.

 

As far as I know though, whether or not Heritage actually does this has never been conclusively proven. Assuming they ever got caught though, I don't think anyone would go to jail. While I don't know many of the details, I do know it is legal for auction house employees/owners to participate in their own auctions in Texas. If they ever got caught doing anything wrong, they could probably just claim they were placing bids on items for their own personal collections. At worst, the owners of Heritage would probably have to pay back a large amount of money in fines to avoid prosecution, similar to what happened when Heritage galleries was investigated back in the '90s."

 

As far as your argument that since there are some books you have bought in the past from Heritage where no shill bids were placed... therefore you know Heritage does not shill bid on any of their auctions and any evidence to the contrary is nothing but "wild allegations"... I don't completely follow your logic. How long do you think Heritage would be in business if EVERY time a bid was placed, they shilled it up exactly to the person's maximum bid? Do you really think they would try to do this with every book in every auction and just hope no one notices?

I wasn`t trying to say that this was conclusive evidence that Heritage never shill bids. It was just supporting evidence. Anyways, I think you`re missing the point. Last time I checked, in the US people are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. The burden is not on me to prove that Heritage doesn`t shill bid, the burden is on you to prove that they DO before you come out with public accusations (or very strong innuendo) that something wrong has been done. Provide this clear evidence, and I`ll be the one asking you for the rope to hang Heritage with.

[tth2]

psssttt.. Tim was KIDDING, his tone read to me to be facetious, and not at all an attack as you seem to have taken it. He just left off the telltale smiley...

I wasn`t kidding. Although I did indeed start off by being facetious.

[adamstrange]

I was going to reply to your post, but then since I noticed you had joined recently and only had 21 posts, I decided to take a quick scan through your previous posts. Starting from your second post, you`ve been very critical of Heritage and I`d say roughly half of your posts thus far have been attacks on Heritage. Plus there was a post going out of your way to criticize some well known dealers.

 

Boy, it sure seems like deja vu all over again. Like the M.O. of a certain ex-board member who`s been booted off these boards repeatedly for "bugging" people. Too soon to say for certain if you`re our friend visiting yet again, but may I suggest that if you ARE a "real" board member, perhaps you should establish some credibility here before pigeon-holing yourself as a one-note wonder whose only interest is to perpetuate some sort of hostile agenda.

 

Tim,

 

Back off on shill speculation.

 

SAC's posted his real name and is a long-time, well-known collector.

[adamstrange]

Four Color #386 in 9.2 for $11,950! That`s 6X Guide for a 9.2 book! Even if the buyer thought there might be a crack and resub opportunity, is there any upside left at that price, even if the book gets a 9.4 on resub? Everytime I think Duck prices can`t get any higher, I am proven so-o-o wrong.

 

Well, good news for the underbidder is that a 9.4 copy will be up on Heritage in November!

 

This 9.2 copy looked particularly nice.

 

It did look like a very nice copy that was an easy 9.2, but the scan was brightened just a bit too much relative to what it looked like in person.

[tth2]

Tim,

 

Back off on shill speculation.

 

SAC's posted his real name and is a long-time, well-known collector.

I`d seen that, but of course I also could have posted that my name was anything I wanted to, which wouldn`t necessarily have meant it was true.

 

But, since you`re vouching for him, then I`ll accept him as being "for real". Perhaps, though, you might want to clue him in on proper etiquette for newbies on the boards. Coming in with guns blazing on some kind of negative agenda is not a good way to start or persuade people that you`re for real. Coming in with guns blazing to post great books, as you did, however, is a great way to start!

[sacentaur]

I was directed to the Board by other serious collectors whom I was discussing the Heritage issues (and the current auction) with offline. I didn't know I needed to contact you first for etiquette and proper protocols - some people just don't want to hear the truth.

 

On the other hand I don't know who you are, and not even your email address is listed. I find it odd that you're willing to assume I'm not "real" (thanx for the voucher Mr. Strange), yet you are also willing to assume Heritage is always on the level despite evidence to the contrary.

 

I've already been emailed by several members to post some scans, but I confess I'm at a loss how to do this. I also have an old, dial-up computer (if that matters) - any help in this area appreciated.

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies

 

 

[namisgr]

I didn't know I needed to contact you first for etiquette and proper protocols - some people just don't want to hear the truth.

 

Well, then, let's stick to the truth, shall we?

 

First off, the auction was held in Maryland, and so is subject to legalities regulating auctions in that state.

 

Secondly, it was well known among those at the convention that many, if not most, of the Church books were the target of a fury of two phone bidders.

 

These facts regarding the integrity of the lastest Heritage auction in no way negate the very real concerns over many of their other auctions, which may include the purchasing of the best candidates for pressing and dry cleaning by the auction house itself, followed by cracking, cleaning and pressing, re-encapsulating, and re-auctioning for a far greater profit than the juice extracted from buyer and seller.

[Silver Surfer]

Thanks to Bill Ponseti for letting me know about this board. Talk about late to the party...sheesh!

 

Well, now that I'm finally here, I just wanted to say hi to everyone and check out some of the recent posts. As usual, I am always interested in buying Gold and Silver Age books, so drop me a line anytime.

 

re: Batimore Heritage...what really blew me away was how much that Marvel Mystery annual went for.....something like $25k??!?!?!?! Good LORD. And to think I used to own one of those 10 years ago.....arghhhhhh! (although mine probably wasn't the "variant".

 

Oh...someone mentioned my Detective 10? Drop me a line....

 

vtcomics OUT

 

The word overvalued is often overused in our society, but in the case of the Cap America and MM annual, it fits. These are Candian reprints sold only in Canada.

 

Steve

 

Agree with you Steve but for serious Timely collectors what collection would be complete without these. Kind of must have if you are lucky enough to find one. $50,000 for a Suspense #3 to me is terribly overvalued.

[Filter81]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but all I have seen on this board so far are people posting facts that are KNOWN to be true about Heritage and allowing people to draw their own conclusions.

 

I have personally posted dozens of very lengthy posts on this subject. Can you point me to three examples of "all my wild allegations"? Please list a few examples of something about Heritage that I have presented as a fact that can not be proved to be true. All I have tried to do is post the facts that are known to be true on this subject, and allow people to make their own decisions. The whole point is to make sure everyone has the same information and the playing field is a little bit more level. What exactly is your problem with that? Its not like I've ever posted "well, I know Heritage does this, but I can't prove it so take my word for it." If ANY of my previous posts are inconsistent with this, please let me know immediately, because that would mean I made a mistake, and I would like to edit or remove those posts immediately.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

You must be kidding me. Here`s your original post on the topic. Perhaps you don`t flat out say "I conclude...", but you`re doing a bit more than just "allowing people to draw their own conclusions." You have done the equivalent of drawing up a map with big red arrows that points very clearly to a location that says "GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!"

 

 

I wasn`t trying to say that this was conclusive evidence that Heritage never shill bids. It was just supporting evidence. Anyways, I think you`re missing the point. Last time I checked, in the US people are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. The burden is not on me to prove that Heritage doesn`t shill bid, the burden is on you to prove that they DO before you come out with public accusations (or very strong innuendo) that something wrong has been done. Provide this clear evidence, and I`ll be the one asking you for the rope to hang Heritage with.

 

So did you miss the part in my post where I said that whether or not Heritage shill bids their auctions has never been proven? I thought I did a fair enough job of mentioning some things that I knew without saying anything that I didn't know for sure to be true.

 

As far as Heritage goes, I have no burden to prove anything. You're right, in America everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I'm not out here trying to say Heritage is evil. They do some things I don't agree with that I wish they would change. This is why I've decided not to place bids with them anymore. Beyond that, I have no interest in causing any trouble for Heritage or anyone else. I just don't want to see fellow collectors getting taken advantage of. I just wanted to share some information I had with other collectors. No "wild allegations".. just facts. If people, knowing this information, decide they still want to bid with Heritage.. great. Despite some of the things Heritage does, I don't think anyone, anywhere can argue that they don't have the best selection of comics for sale anywhere.

 

As far as Steve goes, I assure you he's no shill. Steve, if the test of whether or not someone is a shill is what types of books they post on the forums when they first sign up, maybe you should show tth the comic you showed me in San Diego this year

[drbanner]

Last time I checked, in the US people are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty.

 

This isn't the US, these are the CGC message boards!!

 

[podboy66]

Brian,

 

As a Timely collector, I would take MM 2 to 5 over the annuals everytime. The annuals are black and white reprints!! Yes, they are cool for completists but there is nothing new inside or out. You made the right choice hands down.

 

PS - pm me if you every want to sell them.

[Legion of Goom]

..but did you really expect the premiere lot (showcased on the cover) to NOT get floor bids? originally. I thought 35 was gonna be enough, too. Fraid not. Next time get on the phone and protect your bid when you're going after a high profile piece like that. But if 35K was your top, its smater NOT to get on the phone and risk ego, excitement and everything else force someone to pay more than they wanted.

 

Nah, honestly I figured I didn't have better than a 50% chance to get it at 35k, at best. I don't mind losing it now that I had a night to sleep off the initial disappointment of the delivery. Heck, even if I had bid by phone there would've been no way I could've gone to 60 on it....and that's assuming that whoever won it would've dropped out at 60 and not pushed the price up even higher (not exactly a safe assumption seeing as how that book had already gone so far above the pre-auction estimates).

 

I'm still surprised that the All-Story fetched more than the Frazetta painting (even if it was a minor one by Frank's standards)

[tb]

Four Color #386 in 9.2 for $11,950! That`s 6X Guide for a 9.2 book! Even if the buyer thought there might be a crack and resub opportunity, is there any upside left at that price, even if the book gets a 9.4 on resub? Everytime I think Duck prices can`t get any higher, I am proven so-o-o wrong.

 

It was a sweet copy...does every book have to be purchased considering whether or not there is any "upside left at that price"? I would hope not all high end collectors are really investors, but from what I've seen on the boards here over the years, I'm not so sure.

As I was explaining to Ronm3 at dinner the other night, my own buying habits in the past would certainly make me the last one to ever chide someone for overpaying for a book. Many of the books that I purchased in the past had absolutely no upside and probably only a lot of downside left in the price.

 

And yet, there is overpaying and then there is OVERPAYING. My crazy buys were always reserved for the very best copy that I was very doubtful would be topped, ever. Here, we've got 6X for a 9.2 copy when there are at least 2 better copies already in the census.

 

I think you've timed your sale perfectly though you probably would have done even better if you have spread it out over some time like execsec2. Right now, there appears to be 2 (or at most 3) collectors who will pay way more than everyone else.

 

You are surely going to do quite well with your collection financially, though I understand this never was a priority to you. I like how you only bought in areas where you knew the market very well and that your goals were so clearly defined. Overpaying (in lower case) is an essential part of the game if you want the best, but it's a dangerous balancing act and you really have to know what you are doing. There's a lot more to your good fortune than dumb luck.

 

And I agree completely with you about the OVERPAYING part. Many of the recent prices are not sustainable and I suspect we may see a serious correction sometime soon. This would be a real shame since the steady rise in prices over the last few years has been very healthy and lead to the best supply of books in decades. Right now, I think there is room in the market for one or two more FC 386s selling at $10K+. A 3rd or 4th copy would sell for sharply less than that. I see a risk that the inflated prices could give owners false expectations, which in term could stigmatize Duck books and thus reduce supply again.

 

Personally, I will be even more selective in my Disney purchases. While Four Colors etc. are cool, I'd rather spend my money on equally exciting stuff in a less overheated area.

[rjpb]

Anyways, to get this thread back on topic a little bit.

 

Did anybody noticed the very agressive prices that some of the puls were able to generate? I had placed a few bids on some of the Saucys and ended up with the high closing Internet bid. Went on this morning only to see that some of the final prices were almost 10X my high bid. Must have been a lot of floor action on some of these pulps.

 

What's really interesting is that these prices were realized for only VG/F low grade copies. I can just imagine what some of the high grade copies from a couple of large collection found in the north west about 15 years ago would be worth in today's market. Should have picked some of them up when they were available then.

 

I threw down a few low ball bids on some of the pulp lots - didn't expect to win any, but I've noticed pulp lots occaisonally selling in Heritage Auctions for less than they would on ebay, so thought maybe I'd get lucky on one of them - no chance! - I guess the selection really brought out the pulp fans for this auction.

[sacentaur]

As far as Steve goes, I assure you he's no shill. Steve, if the test of whether or not someone is a shill is what types of books they post on the forums when they first sign up, maybe you should show tth the comic you showed me in San Diego this year

 

Adam, but I don't think anything at this point would put aside the doubts of tth2. Perhaps we should compare our hobby credentials, eh? Besides, Mark Z. has already posted that particular book to this forum (if it's still out there...).

 

If I've come out "guns blazing" it's because this is a very serious topic. If the Baltimore Heritage auction went off well, I think that's just great. It does not, however, mitigate the plethora of other concerns that are on the table.

 

If not all the books went to the big name collectors/dealers, I'm really looking forward to comments from friends and forum members once they receive those books - only time will then tell who are "winners" and who are "losers".

 

STEVE

 

Always looking for Larson copies