So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[BLBcomics-migration]

Kane has his own version, Finger has his, Robinson has his, Shelly has his, they all can't be completely right or completely wrong. None of us were there (including Bob Beerbohm), so we can only have opinions.

 

Here is Kane's'...

 

Kane's Letter to Biljo

 

Yes, i have my opines, and ALL persons point at Bob Kane as a true SOB,

 

Irwin Donenfeld and I discussed Bill Finger. Irwin said he never knew Bob Kane had all these ghost artists, learning about that in the 1960s - they always just dealt with Kane when he came in, delivered story packages, picked up his checks and split

[ciorac]

Kane has his own version, Finger has his, Robinson has his, Shelly has his, they all can't be completely right or completely wrong. None of us were there (including Bob Beerbohm), so we can only have opinions.

 

Here is Kane's'...

 

Kane's Letter to Biljo

 

Yes, i have my opines, and ALL persons point at Bob Kane as a true SOB,

 

Irwin Donenfeld and I discussed Bill Finger. Irwin said he never knew Bob Kane had all these ghost artists, learning about that in the 1960s - they always just dealt with Kane when he came in, delivered story packages, picked up his checks and split

 

Whatever Bob. I forgot you are always right and know every infinite detail of every deal, discussion or transaction that has happened since the dawn of comics. My apologies for thinking that maybe, just maybe, you might not know it all.

 

Maybe he was an SOB, fine. He at least on some level, gave us Batman. And for that I am forever thankful.

[BLBcomics-migration]

]

 

Whatever Bob. I forgot you are always right and know every infinite detail of every deal, discussion or transaction that has happened since the dawn of comics. My apologies for thinking that maybe, just maybe, you might not know it all.

 

Maybe he was an SOB, fine. He at least on some level, gave us Batman. And for that I am forever thankful.

 

There is plenty i do not know, i surely hope you realize i was kidding re the KKK pic Theagnes posted on the OO vs Supes thread

 

I just wonder out loud here why EVERY ONE who ever worked with Bob Kane thought pretty much the same thing - and said so in comicon talks as well as in print, and have since fandom took notice of Bill Finger since the mid 1960s with Biljo's Batmania and the Jerry Bails article to which Bob Kane responded.

 

I was just talking with Jerry Robinson at the Harvey Awards dinner last week end in Baltimore - he wants my help on the new revised version of his 1974 comics history book THE COMICS coming out soon - and we discussed a bit more once again re Bill Finger, Joker, Robin, etc

 

So, this discussion here became more timely, as it were, to me, tis all

[Kakapo]

Kane's grumpy letter of 1965 came at a time when he was still claiming to draw "90% of all Batman stories". That claim alone can't be correct since he says immediately afterwards that he draws every story in Batman bimonthly and does every second issue of Tec. That would be about 25 story pages for Batman and 15 every second month for Detective. So every couple of months, Kane's studio was churning out 40 pages to Infantino's 15. He was hardly likely to say, "You know what, you got me. I just deliver the work and throw the real artists a few crumbs from the table". The fact that he was more willing to acknowledge Bill Finger's contribution (albeit merely saying "he never got the credit he deserved" rather than explicitly saying "Bill did X, Y and Z") in his autobiography near the end of his life (and 15 years after Bill Finger's death) sounds more likely to be true.

 

And as Mr Beerbohm points out, everyone else's stories match up. Moldoff was told by Kane to keep quiet about his ghosting, DCs editors assumed it was Kane's work because he came to give them the pages each month, and they paid him. Kane also says "I ought to sue you", but he didn't. There's an inference to be drawn there.

 

However, as Ciorac rightly says, Bob Kane said to himself "What about a superhero called Batman?" and for that he can have a

 

...Although wikipedia's entry for Bill Finger states that, according to Finger, Kane's original choice of name was "Bird-Man". I think I prefer what they went with.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Finger

Interestingly, it says that Bill Finger did get a byline for the first Green Lantern and Wildcat stories.

 

And in this interview: http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=984&si=124 Jerry Robinson says that he started drawing Batman at the age of 17, in 1939, probably with Detective 29. He also says a couple of nice things about Bob Kane!

[Jamie Coville]

I did a face to face interview with Jerry Robinson April of 2005. On starting with Batman/Bob Kane he told me:

 

I came to New York at 17 and was going to college. I started with Bob in that same year in 1939. I just did it to earn my way through college. Little did I know I'd still be talking about it 60 some years later (laughter).

 

Interview can be read here:

http://www.collectortimes.com/2005_06/Clubhouse.html

 

And forgive me for it. It was my first face to face interview with anybody. I've been doing interviews for 8 years, but until then it was usually e-mail or over the phone.

[ciorac]

]

 

Whatever Bob. I forgot you are always right and know every infinite detail of every deal, discussion or transaction that has happened since the dawn of comics. My apologies for thinking that maybe, just maybe, you might not know it all.

 

Maybe he was an SOB, fine. He at least on some level, gave us Batman. And for that I am forever thankful.

 

There is plenty i do not know, i surely hope you realize i was kidding re the KKK pic Theagnes posted on the OO vs Supes thread

 

I just wonder out loud here why EVERY ONE who ever worked with Bob Kane thought pretty much the same thing - and said so in comicon talks as well as in print, and have since fandom took notice of Bill Finger since the mid 1960s with Biljo's Batmania and the Jerry Bails article to which Bob Kane responded.

 

I was just talking with Jerry Robinson at the Harvey Awards dinner last week end in Baltimore - he wants my help on the new revised version of his 1974 comics history book THE COMICS coming out soon - and we discussed a bit more once again re Bill Finger, Joker, Robin, etc

 

So, this discussion here became more timely, as it were, to me, tis all

 

I know you were kidding Bob, and Kane probably was a jerk, and a crook. But all that matters to me is he gave us all the Batman!! As you know, Bats is my "be all end all", so I have to have a soft spot in my heart for old Mr. Kane.

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

I know you were kidding Bob, and Kane probably was a jerk, and a crook. But all that matters to me is he gave us all the Batman!! As you know, Bats is my "be all end all", so I have to have a soft spot in my heart for old Mr. Kane.

 

The testimony from a lot of people is what i intertwined to come up with my view, honed over decades of doing something like over a thousand comicons now, with all those pros coming thru the shows - knowing from multiple shows creators like CC Beck, LB Cole, Alex Schomburg, and so many others who have now passed on.

 

I also think Ditko created Spiderman, and i think Stan's involvement in the creation was minimal as he was fronting for his uncle-in-law Martin Goodman - but i digress.

 

Kane gets too much credit for the invention of Batman - but without doubt he was co-owner with Donenfeld

 

Like Westinghouse gets the credit by virtue of owning the patents Nickolous Tezla invented. Hugo Gernsback's God was Tezla - multiple interviews and articles on Tezla in Gernsback's Science & Invention.

 

Siegel and Shuster lived for Gernsback publications like S&I as well as flag ship AMAZNG STORIES from whence Buck Rogers is created in 1928, with Siegel having a Letter of comment in the August 1929 Amazing.

 

Tezla's appearance was utilized by Shuster in that first Superman story in Science Fiction #3 Jan 1933 - Superman was Tezla, and i continue to want to work on my history book, this thread simply whetting my appetite on the concept.

 

or Messmer inventing Feix the Cat, but Pat Sullivant owning it

 

That is how i view Bob Kane and his relationship with Bill Finger

[ciorac]

That is how i view Bob Kane and his relationship with Bill Finger

 

Did you ever talk to Bob? So Bob Kane had NOTHING to do with the creation of Batman? Nothing at all???

 

He went to Finger and said "Come up with a character for me", and Finger created Batman all by his lonesome?

 

I struggle to believe that is true. I have been close friends with Shelly Moldoff for 13 years, got to know Julie Schwartz quite well too during the nineties. Spoke to them many, many times about the origins of DC characters. Both differed greatly about what they knew, or came to know about the true origins of Batman and his cast of characters. But NEITHER of them had the audacity to say that Kane was devoid of input into the creation of Batman. I think they would know something about it. Just as much, if not more than Irwin, considering their ages at the time of the characters creation.

 

And since you went there, Stan Lee did not create Spiderman? Wow! That is a revelation! I tire of the Marvelite sour grapes about Stan's success, and their lack of it.

 

Ditko was one of my favorite silver age artists, just brilliant. He undoubedtly had major input on Spidey and Doc Strange's creation, but clearly was not the sole creator of either.

 

Same is true for Kirby's laughable claim to creating everything in Marvel's history. He also claimed to wrtie all the stories, Stan was just a stooge who wrote snappy dialog. Preposterous. Kirby defined the Marvel style to be sure and should be honored for all-time, and clearly played a major role in the creation of many Marvel heroes. But again, he simply spoke untruthfully when he said those things about Stan. Even without intimate knowledge of the events, that you and I are privvy to, one need only read what Kirby wrote for DC after leaving Stan to clearly see that FF, Avengers, et al came from a pen other than the King's.

[tth2]

And since you went there, Stan Lee did not create Spiderman? Wow! That is a revelation! I tire of the Marvelite sour grapes about Stan's success, and their lack of it.

 

Ditko was one of my favorite silver age artists, just brilliant. He undoubedtly had major input on Spidey and Doc Strange's creation, but clearly was not the sole creator of either.

 

Same is true for Kirby's laughable claim to creating everything in Marvel's history. He also claimed to wrtie all the stories, Stan was just a stooge who wrote snappy dialog. Preposterous. Kirby defined the Marvel style to be sure and should be honored for all-time, and clearly played a major role in the creation of many Marvel heroes. But again, he simply spoke untruthfully when he said those things about Stan. Even without intimate knowledge of the events, that you and I are privvy to, one need only read what Kirby wrote for DC after leaving Stan to clearly see that FF, Avengers, et al came from a pen other than the King's.

Not to sidetrack a GA thread on a SA issue, but...

[ciorac]

And since you went there, Stan Lee did not create Spiderman? Wow! That is a revelation! I tire of the Marvelite sour grapes about Stan's success, and their lack of it.

 

Ditko was one of my favorite silver age artists, just brilliant. He undoubedtly had major input on Spidey and Doc Strange's creation, but clearly was not the sole creator of either.

 

Same is true for Kirby's laughable claim to creating everything in Marvel's history. He also claimed to wrtie all the stories, Stan was just a stooge who wrote snappy dialog. Preposterous. Kirby defined the Marvel style to be sure and should be honored for all-time, and clearly played a major role in the creation of many Marvel heroes. But again, he simply spoke untruthfully when he said those things about Stan. Even without intimate knowledge of the events, that you and I are privvy to, one need only read what Kirby wrote for DC after leaving Stan to clearly see that FF, Avengers, et al came from a pen other than the King's.

Not to sidetrack a GA thread on a SA issue, but...

 

Thanks TTH, he went there first, so I've been aching to get that off my chest for a LONG time!!!

 

Whew, that felt good.

[BLBcomics-migration]

hi Bill

 

Moldoff began working for Kane in 1939, i know him also and talked with him a lot as well

 

Irwin Donenfeld read the original art in the DC offices before it was printed in 1939 and went to work for his dad following college

 

Julie Schwartz came along to AA i believe in 1944, way after creation, and then did not coem into DC proper until after Gaines sold out, and Julie followed with his boss Mayer into DC

 

I would tend to follow Moldoff and Irwin before following Julie in this instance - they were "there" as were Jerry Robinson as well as Finger's words along with Jerry Bail's research

 

Finger's creative juices were much more in play than Bob Kane's - Spock Logic Fact

 

Did Kane have input, of course he did, but not as much as HE said so no matter what how much he protested any body else's involvement - he was alsways saying he did the art when it is so obvious he did not - so, one takes that BIG lie and work your way backwards to 1939

 

One needs to go back to the 1960s when the Jerry & Joe Show was trying to win back the copy right renewal on Superman then after 28 years were up

 

I repeat: Stan was fronting for his Unca Martin Goodman, in effect lying that he did all the creating, in effect dissing any of the creative artists - this is so obvious i wonder why and how you can question that - they did not want ownership issues coming up when it came time to sell marvel which happened in 1968 and/or copy right renewal fights

 

Go back and READ what Stan was saying in the 1960s and then how his "origin" stories changed as years went by - his famous "memory lapses" are due to he could not keep all those lies straight any more

 

Face Front, Fearless One, and smell the coffee

[tth2]

I repeat: Stan was fronting for his Unca Martin Goodman, in effect lying that he did all the creating, in effect dissing any of the creative artists - this is so obvious i wonder why and how you can question that - they did not want ownership issues coming up when it came time to sell marvel which happened in 1968 and/or copy right renewal fights

 

Go back and READ what Stan was saying in the 160s and then how his "origin" stories changed as years went by - his famous "memory lapses" are due to he could not keep all those lies straight any more

Bob, have you ever actually READ any of Kirby's 4th World work for DC? It is simply IMPOSSIBLE that whoever wrote the dialogue and plots of those books was the same person who wrote the dialogue and plots of Marvel's SA titles.

 

On the other hand, you can read the pre-hero Atlas and Marvel books and it's very clear that it was the same guy writing the Marvel hero books.

[adamstrange]

I repeat: Stan was fronting for his Unca Martin Goodman, in effect lying that he did all the creating, in effect dissing any of the creative artists - this is so obvious i wonder why and how you can question that - they did not want ownership issues coming up when it came time to sell marvel which happened in 1968 and/or copy right renewal fights

 

Go back and READ what Stan was saying in the 160s and then how his "origin" stories changed as years went by - his famous "memory lapses" are due to he could not keep all those lies straight any more

Bob, have you ever actually READ any of Kirby's 4th World work for DC? It is simply IMPOSSIBLE that whoever wrote the dialogue and plots of those books was the same person who wrote the dialogue and plots of Marvel's SA titles.

 

On the other hand, you can read the pre-hero Atlas and Marvel books and it's very clear that it was the same guy writing the Marvel hero books.

 

You've read pre-hero Marvel comics?

[tth2]

I repeat: Stan was fronting for his Unca Martin Goodman, in effect lying that he did all the creating, in effect dissing any of the creative artists - this is so obvious i wonder why and how you can question that - they did not want ownership issues coming up when it came time to sell marvel which happened in 1968 and/or copy right renewal fights

 

Go back and READ what Stan was saying in the 160s and then how his "origin" stories changed as years went by - his famous "memory lapses" are due to he could not keep all those lies straight any more

Bob, have you ever actually READ any of Kirby's 4th World work for DC? It is simply IMPOSSIBLE that whoever wrote the dialogue and plots of those books was the same person who wrote the dialogue and plots of Marvel's SA titles.

 

On the other hand, you can read the pre-hero Atlas and Marvel books and it's very clear that it was the same guy writing the Marvel hero books.

 

You've read pre-hero Marvel comics?

I used to read all the reprint titles in the 70s like Where Monsters Dwell, etc.

[Forbush-Man]

Kirby & Ditko were a lot more responsible for The Marvel Age of Comics than they were originally given credit (by Stan). I would say that there was a good 15 year period where Stan was running the shop and little out of the ordinary occured during that time (1945-1960), but things did start to churn starting around 58-59 and thereafter.

 

If you read Joe Simon's "The Comic Book Makers" there is the story of the Silver Spider. This character was similar to The Fly. Simon told Kirby about the concept, Kirby (when he left DC and joined Stan at Marvel) told Stan. Stan gave the work to Ditko who scrapped 90% of the original idea and did it his own way.

 

The Marvel way of making comics was for the artist to first draw the story & then dialogue was added (therefore most of the creative effort for story & characters would be on the shoulders of the artist). Basically all Stan had to do was write dialogue for pictures, easy enough to do.

 

There are, in my mind, a lot of similarities between Challengers of the Unknown & early Fantsatic Four. This leads me to believe the original concept for the FF was Kirby's.

 

Kirby was not a great writer, but he came up with characters like no one else. Stan was a good writer, P.R. man & had his finger on the pulse of the fans. He was not a creative genius though and, if not for Kirby & Ditko, would have continued to edit mediocure comics. Just MHO.

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

I repeat: Stan was fronting for his Unca Martin Goodman, in effect lying that he did all the creating, in effect dissing any of the creative artists - this is so obvious i wonder why and how you can question that - they did not want ownership issues coming up when it came time to sell marvel which happened in 1968 and/or copy right renewal fights

 

Go back and READ what Stan was saying in the 160s and then how his "origin" stories changed as years went by - his famous "memory lapses" are due to he could not keep all those lies straight any more

Bob, have you ever actually READ any of Kirby's 4th World work for DC? It is simply IMPOSSIBLE that whoever wrote the dialogue and plots of those books was the same person who wrote the dialogue and plots of Marvel's SA titles.

 

On the other hand, you can read the pre-hero Atlas and Marvel books and it's very clear that it was the same guy writing the Marvel hero books.

 

Have i read the 4th world?

 

funny

 

straight answer - yes

 

Me, i am not discussing word smith concepts, but, rather, creation

 

a whole lot of people have done FF or Spiderman in the last 40 some odd years

 

Or Superman or Batman for that matter

 

but we ain't talking about this or that story

 

you guys can all you want to

 

me, i am discussing CREATING any given super hero

 

anyhoot, after doing comic books for over 30 years, by the 1970s i would say Kirby was pretty much burned out, as he went off into animation - all his good ideas long used up, but that is just my opine

 

Kirby's DC stuff was still brand new new books on the stands when i co-opened my first comic books store in 1972

 

- and i read virtually everything coming thru the door for

1) entertainment, but more importantly for

2) market research

 

i felt it a necessity to keep up with my customers, to be able to recommend with a straight face that which i felt were "good reads" not based on simply having a pile of issues to sell

 

I have owned virtually every modern comic book from the 1930s up except for having an action #1 original to call my own

 

- and i have read most every comic book ever printed except there are some westerns and Charlton romance i have not gotten thru, but especially "good stuff" and many of them quite a few re-reads as well

 

But i digress

 

One has to examine the "Marvel Way" of doing the comics back then

 

the art was all drawn up and finished, THEN

 

dialogue was added post facto

 

But that too has little to do with CREATION, either

 

and then there is the fellow i met named Melvin Shestuck who claims to have been a ghost writer for Mr Lieber. Melvin worked in the Goodman men's sweat mags division on another floor

 

That is an interesting story, especially how i met him outside a comic book universe and it came up in passing

 

and i like the pre hero stuff also

[Bronty]

I hear you, but I don't think you can dismiss 'wordsmithing' on early issues. The dialogue/story concepts of the early issues shape the character forever

[tth2]

I hear you, but I don't think you can dismiss 'wordsmithing' on early issues. The dialogue/story concepts of the early issues shape the character forever

Exactly. I think a character is much more than a nifty costume and some general initial concept (guy with spider powers, Norse thunder god, etc.).

 

I don't know why it needs to be a 100% or nothing issue. Why can't we just agree that Stan Lee and Kirby, or Lee and Ditko, were the co-creators? Each contributed critical elements to making the characters what they were, and most importantly of all, to making them successful. After the first couple of albums, everything Lennon & McCartney wrote was 98-100% Lennon or 98-100% McCartney, but everything they wrote was credited to Lennon-McCartney because there was a creative dynamic that existed with the two of them, even when one wasn't involved in any way with a song that the other wrote.

 

And Bob, my question about you reading the 4th World books was rhetorical. I was pretty sure that you had. And why not, they were cool characters with a great concept, just not written very well.

[Zonker]

I hear you, but I don't think you can dismiss 'wordsmithing' on early issues. The dialogue/story concepts of the early issues shape the character forever

Exactly. I think a character is much more than a nifty costume and some general initial concept (guy with spider powers, Norse thunder god, etc.).

 

 

I think that's the heart of the matter. When later in life Kirby claimed to have "written" the stuff attributed to Stan Lee, I think he had in mind what most of us today consider "plotting." Figuring out what the story is, breaking it down into panels, that kind of thing. Nothing to sneeze at. But most of the folks here today interpret "writing" as deciding what exact words to put in the captions and speech balloons. And here, I think the compare/contrast between late Fantastic Four and early Fourth World stuff clearly shows Kirby wasn't providing the exact voices to Reed Richards & co. Stan Lee's dialogue captured the 1960s faux hip style perfectly-- or at least close enough for his target audience of 10-15 year old wannabees. DCs of the time were written by middle age guys (Haney, Kanigher, Fox) that, when they tried to go for groovy, came off as embarrassingly phoney.

 

But a question for another time is how well has Stan Lee's Marvel Age dialogue aged over the last 40 years? I wonder if the average non-comics fan in 2006 would find 1960s Fantastic Four any more readable than 1970s New Gods?

[Timulty]

You know, it seems like this was a Golden Age thread. once, long ago.