action1kid Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Batman # 1 is "arguably" more important than More Fun 52 ? Where is that argument? I dont see where its historically even close..... Batman # 1 ISNT COMMON AT ALL IN 8.5....It is very scarce. Very ! For me it isnt a matter of hands down as much as its thumbs down in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamstrange Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Batman # 1 is "arguably" more important than More Fun 52 ? Where is that argument? I dont see where its historically even close..... Batman # 1 ISNT COMMON AT ALL IN 8.5....It is very scarce. Very ! For me it isnt a matter of hands down as much as its thumbs down in this case. I vote with A1Kid for the Batman 1. There's a first time for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socratic Wonder Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 (edited) Batman # 1 is "arguably" more important than More Fun 52 ? Where is that argument? I dont see where its historically even close..... Batman # 1 ISNT COMMON AT ALL IN 8.5....It is very scarce. Very ! For me it isnt a matter of hands down as much as its thumbs down in this case. I know that this post will likely get pushed aside on account of the huge argument that is a brewing....but I will give it a shot. I agree that as historical importance goes Bat #1 is in a diffent leaugue than MF 52! Is bat #1 a better long term investment that MF #52? Of course! Is bat #1 demand going to go up while MF #52 demand will stay stagnent? You bet your ! My argument is that I personally would rather have the MF #52 mostly because it is a better looking book in high grade! Bat #1 is a good looking book but from mid grade up it doesn't present TOO much different. I would be just as happy with a 5.0 as I would a 8.5. Now with the MF #52 the difference, at least in how it presents, between a 9.2 and 5.0 is huge. I feel the same way about a lot of simple one color covers. Tec #1 is another good example. In general though Bat #1 is a far more superior book! No argument there. Edited August 25, 2007 by Socratic Wonder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action1kid Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I think you said that very well. I understand your point from that perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Beerbohm Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 i would much rather have a MF 54 for the visuals than MF 52 and/or 53 - have always liked the cover better - and got my first copy of MF 54 from Howard Rogofsky for something like $20 back circa 1968 - my second More Fun was a fantastic Doctor Fate cover on 61. I had ordered a #63 from HR, but he substituted a 61 instead. At first i was angry, but i later thanked him because that Fate cover on 61 is sooooo beautiful in bright cover white paper high grade - the colors shimmer in the light, well, they did back in 1968 when i was 16 To toss in my 2¢ into the previous debate, Batman Superman Capt Amerca Spiderman - years from now, those are the characters with longevity staying power, mehthinks hence, Batman 1 could prove better for % growth per dollar invested - wider popularity the trip is called supply - and demand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action1kid Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Cap ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socratic Wonder Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I think you said that very well. I understand your point from that perspective. Thanks! Truth be told I feel your point is more valid overall and I totally understand where you are coming from. Bat #1 is the mess!!!!! I mean just look at the significance. The first issue of Batman's very own title as well as the the first appearance of the most important villain in comic history! Who wouldn't want a copy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showcase4 Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 I could not spend real cash on this book ( virtually any book ) due to graders notes of "very minor amount of glue on spine of cover". Steve Steve, To be fair, it doesn't appear that your first choice would be to buy any slabbed book. You have stated that your preference is to buy raw, get it slabbed, and then possibly sell it. That being said, you would really pass on a high grade golden age comic simply because it had a notation "minor amount of glue on cover"? YESIs there a price point where that notation would be acceptable? YES Do you feel that it should be priced exactly the same as a book in a purple label with a different kind of minor restoration? NO Do you think that the person who wasn't bothered by the notation and spent the big money overpaid? NO Richard Steve, Thanks for elaborating. Richard Richard, I'm on a family vacation, and promised my wife I wouldn't play on the Boards while we are away, so I had to squeeze in a quick answer.....but she's sleeping now I am a big supporter of CGC, and use their grading service constantly. I do however, disagree with their decision to have some books with very minor work done to them receive a blue/universal label. This to me is a smoke and mirrors attempt to create a 3rd category of books when in reality there are only 2.....a book is either restored/altered/enhanced or its not.........restored = purple, unrestored = blue......makes perfect sense to me, and apparently the hobby as well. A "gray" area is created with the practice of extremely minor restoration getting a blue label with graders notes....why? Because this means a duck not a duck...now all of a sudden it's a chicken. Since I feel this way, I presonally view a blue label book with notes of very minor restoration as improperly labeled / should have a purple label but doesn't. Following that line of thought, since I do not buy restored books, I do not buy blue label / resto graders notes books. I don't fault anyone who thinks differently, and do not expect others to feel as I do. In the case of this MF52, I would not spend $110,000 on it due to that tiny dot of glue, for amongst other reasons, I believe it's mention on the label could hurt its appreciation / marketability down the road, as views on resto - whether minor, moderate or extensive, are unstable and constantly changing. If I knew the glue dot was there, but there were no graders notes mentioned....wouldn't bother me quite as much. With that said, for $110,000 of real cash to leave my bank account and be invested into a single book....it can't have any 'stigma', 'issues', or "its NM- BUT..." associated with it....it has to be universal / no graders notes......just like the Batman #1. On a $110 book that I wanted.......blue with graders notes would not be nearly as big a deal, although I still may be pass due to my ' you can't be a little pregnant' stance on resto. On a $110,000 book, I would definately have to pass due to my beliefs and concerns for future desirability.....what if my attitude spreads, and in 15 years all universal books with graders notes due to minor resto are treated as purple label books with a different CGC wrapper?.....this would not be the case with a universal / no notes label/book. Since CGC opened their doors, it has proven to be the ultimate in desirability / demand for collectors and dealers, and the safest place to spend 1/10th of $1 million with the least amount of worry. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hand ® Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I'm wondering who would be more apt to buy that third level of blue label, slightly restored book for full price. Most likely the less experienced collector. I would hardly call myself pro cgc , although I understand the need for them now with high grade large dollar amount books. ( although a Susan Ciccone or any other good restorer could issue a certificate) Anyhoo, the whole crack, enhance and resubmit scams that have flourished along with the dumbing down of mid to high grade grading standards turned me even further away from third party grading legitimacy. ( that and the monopoly factor) I understand that the genie is out of the bottle and that money talks, but with so few controlling the direction of the hobby it's difficult not to feel helpless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hand ® Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Oh yeah, Batman 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forbush-Man Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I'd go with the More Fun #52. It's a book that, if you have the cash & opportunity, you should grab , high-grade & pedigree'd too. Batman #1's come around quite often......there'll be another one along soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theagenes Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Batman # 1 is "arguably" more important than More Fun 52 ? Where is that argument? I dont see where its historically even close..... Batman # 1 ISNT COMMON AT ALL IN 8.5....It is very scarce. Very ! For me it isnt a matter of hands down as much as its thumbs down in this case. I know that this post will likely get pushed aside on account of the huge argument that is a brewing....but I will give it a shot. I agree that as historical importance goes Bat #1 is in a diffent leaugue than MF 52! Is bat #1 a better long term investment that MF #52? Of course! Is bat #1 demand going to go up while MF #52 demand will stay stagnent? You bet your ! My argument is that I personally would rather have the MF #52 mostly because it is a better looking book in high grade! Bat #1 is a good looking book but from mid grade up it doesn't present TOO much different. I would be just as happy with a 5.0 as I would a 8.5. Now with the MF #52 the difference, at least in how it presents, between a 9.2 and 5.0 is huge. I feel the same way about a lot of simple one color covers. Tec #1 is another good example. In general though Bat #1 is a far more superior book! No argument there. I pretty much agree with everything Socratic Wonder has said here. Bat 1 is the better investment but MF 52 is cooler, etc. But for that kind of money I'd have to choose the better investment and go with Bat 1. I agree though that most midgrade copies present just as well -- I'd rather spend my $110K on a 6.0 copy of each. (thumbs u Also, I would not be bothered really by the glue that much, but I understand how others might be. What I don't understand is how people can pay a different price for the same book with the same amount of glue depending on whether it's in purple label, blue label w/notation, or blue label w/o notation. Well, actually I guess I do understand - those people are label chasers - but I just think it's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou_fine Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 What I don't understand is how people can pay a different price for the same book with the same amount of glue depending on whether it's in purple label, blue label w/notation, or blue label w/o notation. Well, actually I guess I do understand - those people are label chasers - but I just think it's ridiculous. Actually, according to CGC it's probably not the same amount of glue. Of course, the classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun #52 and Adventure Comics #40. It has been stated that both of these books have the same type of restoration work done on them. It's just that the MF #52 has such a minor amount that it still "qualifies" for the blue label. The Adventure #40, on the other hand has slightly more of the same, but enough to push it over into the purple category. Not saying that I agree with the above, but I do sort of understand it. From my point of view, the ideal way to resolve this is to have an one-colour label system with a formal restoration rating system in place to take into account both the type and extent of the resto work. But that's already been talked about in the past. BTW: MF 52 for the purist collector in all of us and Bats #1 for the investor in all of us going forward. (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 [what if my attitude spreads, and in 15 years all universal books with graders notes due to minor resto are treated as purple label books with a different CGC wrapper? That would mean that folks have gotten into the hobby who feel that a spot of glue is more important in determining a books value than the overall beauty and condition of the book. That would be very sad to me. The reason books are graded as they are now is because a majority (not all, I know) swayed CGC's decision to do so. For that attitude to change the minority must convince a majority of newcomers to hobby. It will be interesting to see if that happens. Thanks again for elaborating, Steve. Good stuff to ponder. I do think it is interesting that the notes about glue printed on the label bothers you. But if it wasn't printed on the label (even if the glue were still there) that wouldn't bother you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action1kid Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 But there is a barometer to follow as far as predicting the future of the paper collectibles market regarding restoration.............. Baseball cards! Restoration is reduced to a 4 letter word in that hobby. The tiniest bit of restoration ( The absolute tiniest completely obliterates a cards value.] Every time. That recent 2.4 million Honus Wagner card discovered to possibly have slight trimming got an estimated haircut value of 80k now. That is serious advertising to Newbies of what restoration can do from an investment perspective. Notice I said from an investment perspective...I think comics will always mimick the much much larger baseball card market regarding restoration . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArAich Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 I think trimming is what devalues a paper collectable more than any other aspect...a "touch of glue" just wouldn't have the same impact in value. I can't agree with the baseball card analogy since there is much more to a comic than a simple 2 sided collectable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hand ® Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 It's such a difficult subject, especially if you have a lot in your collection. I suppose if one had a lot of restored books they would want it to be more accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 (edited) I believe that it has been known that the Honus Wagner was possibly trimmed for some time, and yet it still sold for 2.4 million dollars. There is one big difference between baseball cards and GOLDEN AGE comics - scarcity. In general, the rarest cards have more examples than the equivilant comics. Certainly there is a bigger demand for sports cards, but when comparing the two certain allowances must be made. There are just plain more cards out there so resto is going to be a much bigger factor in determining price. Just like resto is a bigger factor for silver age than it is for golden age. Restored Action 1s and Detective 27s sell for a much bigger percentage of unrestored fair market value than do restored Amazing Fantasy 15s. Because of this, in my opinion, a golden age comic that in all other respects is one of or the nicest copy will not be monetarily hammered because it has one minor spot of glue on it. In the case of the More Fun 52, if you were to take a razor to it to remove the glue it would still be an awesome copy. But who in their right mind would ever advocate doing something like that...or create a market where that would make financial sense? Edited August 26, 2007 by MrBedrock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowzilla Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 Actually, according to CGC it's probably not the same amount of glue. Of course, the classic example of this would be the Church copies of More Fun #52 and Adventure Comics #40. I'm not sure this is correct. Does the Church MF#52 have a notation of glue AND color touch? The Adventure has color touch on the main image of the cover that could not be easily removed like a drop of glue along the spine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action1kid Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 I agree that old comics are rarer but the results are the same. Honus Wagner is as rare as an Action 1 or Detective 27. Rich, your not right. That guy did not know that that Honus Wagner was trimmed when he won it. He thought he was buying a completely unrestored card. It was estimated in the Newspaper that if its trimmed its only worth 80k.I think he wants his money back.? Rich, trimming is devastating to value even in our hobby no matter how scarce a card or book is too . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
