Which one would you choose ???? 2 2

[Ze-man]

as usual, Paul seems to eloquently sum up rational thoughts... , methinks (sorry Robert, had to "steal" that) that Paul has some oratory or at least hidden written talents, or at the very least, the ability to compose and display complex thoughts in an easy to understand fashion

rick

 

I agree, and to think he wrote that post at 5 in the morning!

 

 

I think the point he raises about books with minor removable work possibly seeing an upward swing in prices realized for "restored books" is a valid one. Books like this are generally in similar condition to what they were before the minor work was done. So if the minor work is removed the book will not drop drastically in overall grade.

 

imho sales of minor P books really should sell closer to what their completely unrestored brethren sell for instead of people expecting a sizable price cut because the book is viewed as "restored". Especially hard to find key books.

 

I guess it all depends on ones personal preference and perspective.

 

Ze-

[showcase4]

imho sales of minor P books really should sell closer to what their completely unrestored brethren sell for instead of people expecting a sizable price cut because the book is viewed as "restored".

Ze-

 

I don't think it's a view/state of mind my friend......minor P is still restoration.

The sizable price difference between a minor P book and completely unrestored is reasonable and not happening by chance.......respectfully

Steve

[Ze-man]

imho sales of minor P books really should sell closer to what their completely unrestored brethren sell for instead of people expecting a sizable price cut because the book is viewed as "restored".

Ze-

 

I don't think it's a view/state of mind my friend......minor P is still restoration.

The sizable price difference between a minor P book and completely unrestored is reasonable and not happening by chance.......respectfully

Steve

 

I hear ya.. I suppose my point was not saying a book with minor work is not restored,of course it is. But rather some see a purple label and lump all the books into the same pile without taking into account what was actually done to the book, or why. Meaning to me a book with a tear seal is much more attractive then a book with CT because the tear seal serves a purpose while the CT is purely eye candy.

 

And as I said earlier the price difference between minor P books and unrestored books should be much closer then mod, or ext books since the work can be easily removed on minor restored books returning them to their original unrestored condition, which in most cases is pretty darn close to their original grade.(hows that for a garbled, run on sentence?)

 

Which gets back to Paul's observation about minor P books possibly becoming more attractive to buyers.

 

 

 

Ze-

 

 

Edited August 26, 2007 by Ze-man

[lou_fine]

I wonder if the Mile High More Fun 52 would have gotten more than the 150k it got[in a private sale] if It didnt have that dot of glue]..I think so. Alot more.

 

Well, if it didn't have the dot of glue and whatever else was noted on the label, than it would be a completely unrestored book and most definitely would have gone for a lot more money. That's an absolute no-brainer.

 

If I remember correctly, this book was able to sell for a nice premium to guide since the resto notes was on a blue label. If the resto notes was on a purple label, no doubt this book wwould have sold for only a dicount to guide similar to the Church Adventure #40. Of course, if the book was completely unrestored and sitting with a clean blue label, it would have gone for multiples of guide.

 

Now, as you or one of the other posters had mentioned, if the resto notes were off the label and only accessible through the grader's notes or online, any bets the price would have been higher than what it was able to realize? A pretty safe and easy bet for me to make here.

 

Goes to show you the significance of how the restoration information is presented on the label. Are we really paying for the book or are we paying for the label?

[ciorac]

I'd buy the book with the tiny dot of color touch or glue all day long....If it was one I wanted and if......it was deeply discounted.

 

Ah, there's the rub. I am getting less and less inclined to significantly discount a book with very minor restoration. Especially if it is in otherwise in very high grade.

It would be just too hard to replace.

 

But, nonetheless you would discount it, correct? Maybe just not as much?

 

I resist the notion that you would price a completely untouched book the same as one with a glued tear seal and color touch on that seal. Certainly you could price it anyway you choose, but I think the market would resist the temptation to pay the premium.

 

The struggle for me is determining the grade prior to the "enhancement". It seems like that is the true grade. But that is a very difficult prospect in some cases, others not so much.

 

I'm not on the conservation bandwagon yet, and am not sure I will ever be. In my view all restoration conserves the book, as it removes defects and replaces deterioriating components. Splitting hairs between restoration and conservation seems to be conserving the perceived value of the book moreso than truly differentiating between the techniques employed.

 

I have been proposing to Bob Overstreet that all golden age books should be seperated in the guide and priced individually. The idea that, say, Superman 31 - 40 are all worth exactly the same is silly and old fashioned to me. If those ten books were laid out in the same grade at the same price the 32 would sell first almost every time. At some point one of those ten is going to be shown as scarcer than the others. Factors like these should dictate that each of them should be priced differently.

The same can be said for golden age books with minor resto. Every book should be treated individually. And every situation is different. This discussion started with a statement that, to me, seemed to be a blanket statement. I don't think blanket statements should be made in regards to items as rare as some of these books are.

So, in answer to your question, I may discount it, I may not. It really depends on the book. If there isn't an untouched copy in anywhere near the grade, why would I discount it just because it has a small something? It is still THE BEST COPY.

 

Salient points as always my friend.

 

I would love to see the issues priced individually too. There is ample documentation in the marketplace to support the drastic differences. I guess the difficulty for Bob is the size and amount of information that would need to be included. Although, I would be happy to help as I know you would be too.

 

Also, I hear your argument on "the best copy", but we musn't lose sight of the fact that it is the best with help from others.

 

I've said all along there should be a restoration scale just like a grading scale. It should be much more complex than the three simple categories we now have.

[ArAich]

I've said all along there should be a restoration scale just like a grading scale. It should be much more complex than the three simple categories we now have.

 

I believe CGC proposed this about a year or 2 ago and when presented to "the boards" for an opinion it went over like a lead balloon...

 

I'll try to track this down via the sooper-dooper forum search engine...

[ArAich]

My search thus far...

[ArAich]

Found it...

 

 

Proposed Label Modifications...

 

[MrBedrock]

Also, I hear your argument on "the best copy", but we musn't lose sight of the fact that it is the best with help from others.

 

 

Actually, what I am talking about, and what is the case with the MF 52, is a book that is the best copy in spite of the help of others, whether that help is there or not.

[MrBedrock]

Maybe it is time for CGC to revisit the debate on whether or not to use those labels or some variation of them.

[G.A.tor]

hello all...

I agree that slight restored books, that are almost identical to its previously unrestored state (such as smidgen of c/t or tear seal etc) should sell for a much higher percentage than say a mod, or ext....in a "sane" world, the restored copy would sell for approx what it would have sold for in its unrestored grade..

ie, if a 9.0 slight was a 8.0 before the slight, then why is the book worth less than 8.0 price (whatever % that is under or at or over guide)....a moderate book, that is maybe a 8.0, that was a vg before, should sell right about what a vg would be (maybe that is a 50% reduction, or whatever %)...and, an extensive, should likely sell at some lower % as well (depending on the "extent" of the extensive retoration)...

in a perfect world, that would happen...years ago, restored books sold for much much more than the same book would today...10 years from now, who knows, maybe mass opinion will be changed again...it is true the cgc label "hurts" the book in most cases...look at the dentist's recent auctions of restored books, where the resto was disclosed...many of those books sold at 75% of guide, and some for more than unrestored guide...bet if they were in purple labels, they wouldn't have?

rick

[ciorac]

Also, I hear your argument on "the best copy", but we musn't lose sight of the fact that it is the best with help from others.

 

 

Actually, what I am talking about, and what is the case with the MF 52, is a book that is the best copy in spite of the help of others, whether that help is there or not.

 

I got ya. What a difference an SP and a .7 grade change makes eh?

 

 

 

(9.2) Larson pedigree - 119,500.00 - - 119,500.00 - Aug 2006 National P 1 1940 1

 

SP (8.5) - 10,755.00 - - 10,755.00 - Aug 2006 National P 1 1940 1

 

 

[showcase4]

Found it...

 

 

Proposed Label Modifications...

 

 

what a cluster this would have been....glad the idea was scrapped!

We all would have needed reading glasses and a note pad/pen to try to decifer all the small print and figure out what CGC was trying to say....and just imgaine all the eBay ads where Joe Schmoe is selling a graded book and has cheesy pics.....you'd have to email him 15 times to get all the info you needed just to understand what he was offering. I'll take good old blue and purple numeric labels all day long over this train wreck....looks like it was designed by the US Government, not private industry.

Steve

[MrBedrock]

Found it...

 

 

Proposed Label Modifications...

 

 

what a cluster this would have been....glad the idea was scrapped!

We all would have needed reading glasses and a note pad/pen to try to decifer all the small print and figure out what CGC was trying to say....and just imgaine all the eBay ads where Joe Schmoe is selling a graded book and has cheesy pics.....you'd have to email him 15 times to get all the info you needed just to understand what he was offering. I'll take good old blue and purple numeric labels all day long over this train wreck....looks like it was designed by the US Government, not private industry.

Steve

 

I agree. Let's keep things dumbed down for the general masses to understand. I mean why in the world would we ever want to put too much information on the labels? Could you imagine if we actually wasted time trying to educate casual hobbyists with the added information CGC could provide? Then they might get too informed and realize that there are some real values out there in the restored comic world. Then where would we be? We would probably have to pay more for those books that have slipped by in the past. BRRRRRRR!

[showcase4]

Found it...

 

 

Proposed Label Modifications...

 

 

what a cluster this would have been....glad the idea was scrapped!

We all would have needed reading glasses and a note pad/pen to try to decifer all the small print and figure out what CGC was trying to say....and just imgaine all the eBay ads where Joe Schmoe is selling a graded book and has cheesy pics.....you'd have to email him 15 times to get all the info you needed just to understand what he was offering. I'll take good old blue and purple numeric labels all day long over this train wreck....looks like it was designed by the US Government, not private industry.

Steve

 

I agree. Let's keep things dumbed down for the general masses to understand. I mean why in the world would we ever want to put too much information on the labels? Could you imagine if we actually wasted time trying to educate casual hobbyists with the added information CGC could provide? Then they might get too informed and realize that there are some real values out there in the restored comic world. Then where would we be? We would probably have to pay more for those books that have slipped by in the past. BRRRRRRR!

 

ahhhhhhh, but Richard...

if this was such a great, informative and much needed change, why was there overwhelming lack of support by our very own educated fellow Forumites??

[MrBedrock]

Found it...

 

 

Proposed Label Modifications...

 

 

what a cluster this would have been....glad the idea was scrapped!

We all would have needed reading glasses and a note pad/pen to try to decifer all the small print and figure out what CGC was trying to say....and just imgaine all the eBay ads where Joe Schmoe is selling a graded book and has cheesy pics.....you'd have to email him 15 times to get all the info you needed just to understand what he was offering. I'll take good old blue and purple numeric labels all day long over this train wreck....looks like it was designed by the US Government, not private industry.

Steve

 

I agree. Let's keep things dumbed down for the general masses to understand. I mean why in the world would we ever want to put too much information on the labels? Could you imagine if we actually wasted time trying to educate casual hobbyists with the added information CGC could provide? Then they might get too informed and realize that there are some real values out there in the restored comic world. Then where would we be? We would probably have to pay more for those books that have slipped by in the past. BRRRRRRR!

 

ahhhhhhh, but Richard...

if this was such a great, informative and much needed change, why was there overwhelming lack of support by our very own educated fellow Forumites??

 

The same reason there was overwhelming support FOR it among the dealers that CGC surveyed. CGC was going to implement it when the forum voted it down.

 

Now I don't want to show disrespect for the forum, but there has certainly been a lack of respect of dealer's opinions on these boards. And at that time there was virtually no dealer representation here. So if dealers were for it, well then forumites naturally were against it. I think if you were to take the same poll now the outcome would be different. Especially now that most forumites are seeing that there are some dealers who are not bad guys, and are actually looking out for the hobby's best interest.

[lou_fine]

I suppose my point was not saying a book with minor work is not restored,of course it is. But rather some see a purple label and lump all the books into the same pile without taking into account what was actually done to the book, or why.

 

And as I said earlier the price difference between minor P books and unrestored books should be much closer then mod, or ext books

Ze-

 

And that's the entire problem (or opportunity) with the current two-colour label system.

 

This system serves only to stigmitize the restored books irrespective of the type or extent of the work done. It just throws everything into one purple trash bin as buyers are led to separate everything by the colour of the labels instead of what was actually done to the books.

 

[adamstrange]

Found it...

 

 

what a cluster this would have been....glad the idea was scrapped!

We all would have needed reading glasses and a note pad/pen to try to decifer all the small print and figure out what CGC was trying to say....and just imgaine all the eBay ads where Joe Schmoe is selling a graded book and has cheesy pics.....you'd have to email him 15 times to get all the info you needed just to understand what he was offering. I'll take good old blue and purple numeric labels all day long over this train wreck....looks like it was designed by the US Government, not private industry.

Steve

 

I agree. Let's keep things dumbed down for the general masses to understand. I mean why in the world would we ever want to put too much information on the labels? Could you imagine if we actually wasted time trying to educate casual hobbyists with the added information CGC could provide? Then they might get too informed and realize that there are some real values out there in the restored comic world. Then where would we be? We would probably have to pay more for those books that have slipped by in the past. BRRRRRRR!

 

ahhhhhhh, but Richard...

if this was such a great, informative and much needed change, why was there overwhelming lack of support by our very own educated fellow Forumites??

 

The same reason there was overwhelming support FOR it among the dealers that CGC surveyed. CGC was going to implement it when the forum voted it down.

 

Now I don't want to show disrespect for the forum, but there has certainly been a lack of respect of dealer's opinions on these boards. And at that time there was virtually no dealer representation here. So if dealers were for it, well then forumites naturally were against it. I think if you were to take the same poll now the outcome would be different. Especially now that most forumites are seeing that there are some dealers who are not bad guys, and are actually looking out for the hobby's best interest.

 

You can follow the old threads to see all the arguments but the main concern was not that the labels would include too much information, but that the single color (blue) would prove annoying to those that prefer "unrestored" comics and potentially misleading to those who are new or unsophisticated. If the only requested change had been to add more info and a resto scale to purple label comics then I think you would find consensus for that change among all parties.

 

I put quotations around unrestored because I do realize CGC allows a tiny bit of resto as has been discussed in this thread.

Edited August 26, 2007 by adamstrange

[MrBedrock]

The proposed label change was always been a curious situation to me. Steve Borock introduced the idea at a convention (I can't remember exactly but I think it was a Wizard Philly show) and essentially presented CGC's tentative plans to each dealer in attendance. A majority of the big dealers were there. The questions Steve wanted answered were 1) how best to break down and rate Restoration/Conservation and 2)what color label. The scale for resto which resulted was, I think, a HUGE improvement over what is still in use. The color label issue was barely touched on. It seemed to me like it was a forgone conclusion that the purple label was being shown the door.

From my perspective, by the end of the show CGC seemed to be saying that it was a done deal and there were speculated rollout dates of about six months down the road. As I said, a very small number of dealers were even lurking on the boards at that time, so there was utter amazement when we were informed that the change would not be taking place, that it had been voted down, that no dealers had taken part in the vote.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2007 by MrBedrock

[Ze-man]

If the only requested change had been to add more info and a resto scale to purple label comics then I think you would find consensus for that change among all parties.

 

 

I agree , be it a purple, red, white or blue label if they were to implement a system as shown in the above labels I think that could only help dealers and buyers alike. As shown in the labels above, the vital information about the condition of a given book is near the most looked at part of the label, the numerical GRADE.

 

While I can understand why some would argue against an outright label color change, I would applaud any effort to change the format of the colored labels to better reflect what was done to the book. Some would say this is just a ploy to sell more books and move away from the term resto. But I have all along felt that if a book has had conservative techniques done and cosmetic things left undone, well to me it deserves to be labeled differently.

 

Ze-