What do you think about a Grading Report

[kc120us]

What do you think about a Grading Report?

 

This is something I've been thinking about for a while and, with all the threads concerning restoration definitions and CGC grading policies, I thought I'd throw this out there and see what everyone thought. First a little background, I've been collecting comics for over 25 years, I collect what I love and love what I collect. I am a collector not a dealer. I think I've learned quite a bit about the hobby but am by no means an expert. I had stopped collecting back in the mid 90's for a vareity of reasons and have CGC to thank for bringing me back. I had submitted my collection to CGC for grading a couple of years ago and, in the process, rediscovered my passion for comics. Now, as I said, I had collected for many years but never gave a real thought about condition or grade. When I found CGC, I was so excited. They introduced me to the importance of grade, condition and preservation. But enough about me. This thread is about an idea.

 

I believe in the CGC product and I believe in their attempt to even the playing field and improve confidence for the collector and the dealer. But it is not a perfect product, there are flaws. Flaws dissected in these forums. CGC's grading standards, restoration detection (what is and what is not restoration?), and information among others. As I have thought about these, reading the many threads here and listening to each side debate the problems, I have begun to wonder if the problem lies not with CGC but with the nature of the processes involved. Grading, by its very nature, is subjective. One man's 9.4 is another's 9.2 and so on.Then, there is restoration and all the problems associated with it. Perhaps the biggest is that we don't even have a proper definition for it. One that we can all agree on. Lastly, there is information or the lack of it. By lack of information, I refer to the CGC label that is encapsulated with every comic. Looking at the current label what does it tell you about the comic? It tells me the title, publisher, date published and issue number. It tells me the artist and writer, any character appearances or special info regarding the story or publication uniqueness. While all good, I can get this info from pretty much any comic book resource. What does it tell me about this particular book? It tells the numeric grade that three of CGC's graders have agreed upon. It gives me a description of page quality. If the label is either green or purple, it tells me what special defect was found or the work that was performed on it. There is also a serial number that identifies it and can be used to access the grader's notes for that book. But from what I've heard, those notes are sparse in detail. (I've never called for any of the grader's notes, so if I'm wrong, please correct me).

 

This is where the first part of my idea comes in to play. Simply put, we need more information. How was this grade arrived at? What specfic defects were found? List them all. What work if any was detected? List it all. Whether it is considered restoration or not. List it all. Let the consumers, be they dealer or collector, know everything you found and how you came about your conclusions. Now, obviously, all this data will not fit on such a small label. So, what I'm suggesting is that CGC develop a Grading Report. A single or multi page report that gives the reader a concise view of what the CGC crew discovered. Such a report should include but not be limited to the following: Date of certification, any and all defects found, any and all restoration or conservation work detected, and a summation of all the graders opinions as to why they arrived at the grade they did. This information will give the consumer a much better insight into the comic they are considering purchasing.The report should be printed and included along with the slabbed comic and also be accessible via the CGC or Collector's Society web site. I first thought of this when I bought an engagement ring for my girlfriend and the jeweler gave me a detailed report of the diamond I had just purchased. This report included the diamond's cut,color and clarity along with its history. I thought certified comic grading could also benefit from such detail.

 

But, in order for it to work, all information must be disclosed. Otherwise, its integrity will suffer. By listing all this information in the report, label designations such as restored or qualified might become superfluous. And it might also settle some of the debate going on about why this book is in a purple label and that book is in a blue. List all the data for a given book and let the consumer decide. Whether pressing is restoration or not, if the comic has been pressed, list it in the report. Let the consumer decide. By not listing this information, you weaken the consumer's power and the integrity of the slabbed comic. Now, one side note that must be stated, any work that is listed must be detected. And by detection I mean the proof must be either seen through physical evidence or deduced from other physical signs or clues. It should not be guessed. List all physical evidence that is found and state any conclusions deduced from the evidence, provided it is substantial enough to do so. Otherwise, just list the evidence and let the consumer make the "educated guess" as to what it may be. If the evidence is not substantial enough to prove work has been performed, and the graders believe it may or may not be present, the grader's opinions should still be included, giving the consumer better insight into what the grader found, but should be stated that it is only opinion. Again, this gives the consumer more tools to use to evaluate the comic.

 

The second part of my idea concerns maintaining the integrity of the report. As we all know, slabbed comics are often returned for regrading. The regraded comics get a new serial number and the old serial number is deleted. The slabbed comic is, in essence, reborn. Its certification history is deleted. The slabbed comic gets a new lease on life. This, in my opinion, is a mistake. By erasing its history, the consumer has no idea if the book might have had work performed and subsequently removed. Let the consumer know this information. Maintain the history. However, that is not easy. If a comic is cracked from the slab and submitted without the old label, the CGC crew may not be able to recognize it and simply grade as if it is the first time. To remedy this, I offer the idea to somehow mark the comic in an inconspicious and harmless way. To "tag" it, if you will. The "tag" must be so that it cannot be found through conventional means nor removed. This prevents unscrupulous people from slipping comics thorugh the CGC crew and might also be helpful in detecting pressing; if a book is resubmitted and is suddenly missing some creases it had in the previous grading, It's a safe bet it has been pressed. I grant you that I have no idea if the technology for this is available or if this is even feasible but I think I echo the views of many here who believe that a comic's history (i.e. is it preserved naturally or through artifical manipulation) must be maintained and accessible.

 

That is it in a nutshell. It's not perfect. I'm sure there is a lot I missed. I appreciate any feedback. Any opinions. If I'm off base, let me know. If it has potential, tell me what needs to be improved. I think everyone stands to benefit from such a report. The more you know the better it is. The only people who won't benefit are those who wish such information to remain hidden. It is done in other industries, why not ours? What do you think? If Steve or anyone else from CGC reads this, I hope you will consider some if not all of what I said and keep it in mind when discussing any future changes to the product. I think it can make CGC comic certification, a good product already, even better.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

Casey

[comicdonna]

Wow! That's a lot of typing.

 

I have always thought, that a sheet of the graders notes should accompany every CGC comic order.

 

I bought my wife a 1.56 K certified diamond ring, that can be identified by some microchip or number that is invisible to the naked eye, but, I don't think that would work out with a comic. It would be nice, to trace every comic that has been graded by CGC, but, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

I think, that CGC could come up with a better summary of how the grade was obtained. It would be nice to hear remarks from the senior graders about the comic.

 

This info should be kept on file at CGC, and sent to the customer with the books.

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

"That is it in a nutshell."

 

 

 

 

Rick

[kc120us]

Wow! That's a lot of typing.

 

I have always thought, that a sheet of the graders notes should accompany every CGC comic order.

 

I bought my wife a 1.56 K certified diamond ring, that can be identified by some microchip or number that is invisible to the naked eye, but, I don't think that would work out with a comic. It would be nice, to trace every comic that has been graded by CGC, but, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

I think, that CGC could come up with a better summary of how the grade was obtained. It would be nice to hear remarks from the senior graders about the comic.

 

This info should be kept on file at CGC, and sent to the customer with the books.

Yeah, i have no idea if it is possible to tag a comic. But it would be nice. I'm not sure if comics have any unique serial number that CGC could record during the grading process.

[kc120us]

"That is it in a nutshell."

 

 

 

 

Rick

[comicdonna]

Wow! That's a lot of typing.

 

I have always thought, that a sheet of the graders notes should accompany every CGC comic order.

 

I bought my wife a 1.56 K certified diamond ring, that can be identified by some microchip or number that is invisible to the naked eye, but, I don't think that would work out with a comic. It would be nice, to trace every comic that has been graded by CGC, but, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

I think, that CGC could come up with a better summary of how the grade was obtained. It would be nice to hear remarks from the senior graders about the comic.

 

This info should be kept on file at CGC, and sent to the customer with the books.

Yeah, i have no idea if it is possible to tag a comic. But it would be nice. I'm not sure if comics have any unique serial number that CGC could record during the grading process.

The only way, would be a high resolution scan of the front and back cover. Comics are like logs. none are identical. I used logs as a reference, because I am a Logging contractor. I see you live in NY. Do you have land, that needs to be logged?

[kc120us]

Wow! That's a lot of typing.

 

I have always thought, that a sheet of the graders notes should accompany every CGC comic order.

 

I bought my wife a 1.56 K certified diamond ring, that can be identified by some microchip or number that is invisible to the naked eye, but, I don't think that would work out with a comic. It would be nice, to trace every comic that has been graded by CGC, but, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

I think, that CGC could come up with a better summary of how the grade was obtained. It would be nice to hear remarks from the senior graders about the comic.

 

This info should be kept on file at CGC, and sent to the customer with the books.

Yeah, i have no idea if it is possible to tag a comic. But it would be nice. I'm not sure if comics have any unique serial number that CGC could record during the grading process.

The only way, would be a high resolution scan of the front and back cover. Comics are like logs. none are identical. I used logs as a reference, because I am a Logging contractor. I see you live in NY. Do you have land, that needs to be logged?

 

I live in a Condo complex so I don't think so. I see you live near Albany. My fiancee's parents live in Renssalaer (sp) county. So, I'm up in those neck of the woods quite often and I would think you have plenty of logging opportunities.

[thirdgreenham]

Neat idea, but "tagging" the comic doesn't sound easy. You'd be affecting the grade by putting some mark, or chip, or whatever this tag is, onto the book itself.

 

As for calling CGC and getting the grader's notes, I've done this twice and was pretty impressed both times. The service was good, and they were quite helpful. They had made a good number of notes, and basically listed all of the major faults. But yeah, these notes shouldn't just be for them to keep and disclose when people ask about it. I definately agree that a copy of these notes should accompany the comic and returned to the owner. That report, though, should be outside of the case, and marked with the same serial number that is given to the same CGC graded comic.

 

But you know what, if it costs CGC another $100,000/year to implement this idea, it'll probably never happen. Hey, who knows?

 

Thanks for stimulating my brain!

 

 

Andy

[comicdonna]

Wow! That's a lot of typing.

 

I have always thought, that a sheet of the graders notes should accompany every CGC comic order.

 

I bought my wife a 1.56 K certified diamond ring, that can be identified by some microchip or number that is invisible to the naked eye, but, I don't think that would work out with a comic. It would be nice, to trace every comic that has been graded by CGC, but, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

I think, that CGC could come up with a better summary of how the grade was obtained. It would be nice to hear remarks from the senior graders about the comic.

 

This info should be kept on file at CGC, and sent to the customer with the books.

Yeah, i have no idea if it is possible to tag a comic. But it would be nice. I'm not sure if comics have any unique serial number that CGC could record during the grading process.

The only way, would be a high resolution scan of the front and back cover. Comics are like logs. none are identical. I used logs as a reference, because I am a Logging contractor. I see you live in NY. Do you have land, that needs to be logged?

 

I live in a Condo complex so I don't think so. I see you live near Albany. My fiancee's parents live in Renssalaer (sp) county. So, I'm up in those neck of the woods quite often and I would think you have plenty of logging opportunities.

I do. I have developed an exellent reputation logging around the capital region. BTW what do you collect?

[kc120us]

Wow! That's a lot of typing.

 

I have always thought, that a sheet of the graders notes should accompany every CGC comic order.

 

I bought my wife a 1.56 K certified diamond ring, that can be identified by some microchip or number that is invisible to the naked eye, but, I don't think that would work out with a comic. It would be nice, to trace every comic that has been graded by CGC, but, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

I think, that CGC could come up with a better summary of how the grade was obtained. It would be nice to hear remarks from the senior graders about the comic.

 

This info should be kept on file at CGC, and sent to the customer with the books.

Yeah, i have no idea if it is possible to tag a comic. But it would be nice. I'm not sure if comics have any unique serial number that CGC could record during the grading process.

The only way, would be a high resolution scan of the front and back cover. Comics are like logs. none are identical. I used logs as a reference, because I am a Logging contractor. I see you live in NY. Do you have land, that needs to be logged?

 

I live in a Condo complex so I don't think so. I see you live near Albany. My fiancee's parents live in Renssalaer (sp) county. So, I'm up in those neck of the woods quite often and I would think you have plenty of logging opportunities.

I do. I have developed an exellent reputation logging around the capital region. BTW what do you collect?

 

Predominately, X-men and some other marvel moderns. I spent the summer upgrading my x-men collection. Not quite done yet but when i'm thru i'll have X-men 1-93 CGC 9.0 or higher (except 1 and 3 those are 8.0 and 8.5 respectively). And 94-350 9.4 or higher. I have some pics posted in "this week in your collection" and Silver age X-men thread. What about yourself?

Casey

[comicdonna]

Wow! That's a lot of typing.

 

I have always thought, that a sheet of the graders notes should accompany every CGC comic order.

 

I bought my wife a 1.56 K certified diamond ring, that can be identified by some microchip or number that is invisible to the naked eye, but, I don't think that would work out with a comic. It would be nice, to trace every comic that has been graded by CGC, but, I don't think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

I think, that CGC could come up with a better summary of how the grade was obtained. It would be nice to hear remarks from the senior graders about the comic.

 

This info should be kept on file at CGC, and sent to the customer with the books.

Yeah, i have no idea if it is possible to tag a comic. But it would be nice. I'm not sure if comics have any unique serial number that CGC could record during the grading process.

The only way, would be a high resolution scan of the front and back cover. Comics are like logs. none are identical. I used logs as a reference, because I am a Logging contractor. I see you live in NY. Do you have land, that needs to be logged?

 

I live in a Condo complex so I don't think so. I see you live near Albany. My fiancee's parents live in Renssalaer (sp) county. So, I'm up in those neck of the woods quite often and I would think you have plenty of logging opportunities.

I do. I have developed an exellent reputation logging around the capital region. BTW what do you collect?

 

Predominately, X-men and some other marvel moderns. I spent the summer upgrading my x-men collection. Not quite done yet but when i'm thru i'll have X-men 1-93 CGC 9.0 or higher (except 1 and 3 those are 8.0 and 8.5 respectively). And 94-350 9.4 or higher. I have some pics posted in "this week in your collection" and Silver age X-men thread. What about yourself?

Casey

I'm working on Action comics #1 through #101 plus a few above keys. I only have 12 books, because I had to start over.

[rodan57]

A grading report would be a nice thing but with the volume of books being graded, I imagine that CGC graders have some sort of quota in order to measure their ability to balance the incoming flow of comics with the graded outflow. The amount of time necessary to produce a report, be it only a couple of minutes of computer entry per modern book, might simply be too much under the current business model...

 

Do gold and silver deserve a slightly different level of service in addition to a restoration check?

Would collectors pay for more?

[kc120us]

Neat idea, but "tagging" the comic doesn't sound easy. You'd be affecting the grade by putting some mark, or chip, or whatever this tag is, onto the book itself.

 

As for calling CGC and getting the grader's notes, I've done this twice and was pretty impressed both times. The service was good, and they were quite helpful. They had made a good number of notes, and basically listed all of the major faults. But yeah, these notes shouldn't just be for them to keep and disclose when people ask about it. I definately agree that a copy of these notes should accompany the comic and returned to the owner. That report, though, should be outside of the case, and marked with the same serial number that is given to the same CGC graded comic.

 

But you know what, if it costs CGC another $100,000/year to implement this idea, it'll probably never happen. Hey, who knows?

 

Thanks for stimulating my brain! Andy

 

 

I wasn't sure how you could tag the comic without damaging it but sometimes necessity is the mother of invention. The report is meant to be included in the poly bag the slabbed comic is shipped in, not encapsulated with the comic.

[kc120us]

A grading report would be a nice thing but with the volume of books being graded, I imagine that CGC graders have some sort of quota in order to measure their ability to balance the incoming flow of comics with the graded outflow. The amount of time necessary to produce a report, be it only a couple of minutes of computer entry per modern book, might simply be too much under the current business model...

I don't think it would be too difficult to inscribe the grader's notes to a computer document since they already part of the grading process. I think the only extra time would be in the summation of the grader's opinion.

 

Do gold and silver deserve a slightly different level of service in addition to a restoration check?

Would collectors pay for more?

 

Both very good questions. Perhaps. But I think for it to work it should apply to all comics. If not, a scam artist could simply say it never came with a report. Now, would collectors pay for more? Maybe... If they felt it could really help them and create a trully level playing field.

 

Casey

[Davenport]

I don't think it would be too difficult to inscribe the grader's notes to a computer document since they already part of the grading process. I think the only extra time would be in the summation of the grader's opinion.

 

Casey

 

Every time someone calls CGC for full grading notes CGC could go ahead and published them to the web for public lookup. That way the CGC grader taking the call could do the upload task right then, during the phone call.

Customers could go to a website and pull up notes by entering a barcode number, if the info's not there (states: CALL) then make the call (which triggers an upload). Slowly, over time, it would become a convenient public resource built via top-notch customer service.

[kc120us]

Every time someone calls CGC for full grading notes CGC could go ahead and published them to the web for public lookup. That way the CGC grader taking the call could do the upload task right then, during the phone call.

Customers could go to a website and pull up notes by entering a barcode number, if the info's not there (states: CALL) then make the call (which triggers an upload). Slowly, over time, it would become a convenient public resource built via top-notch customer service.

 

That could also work. But I'd like to hear their opinion as to have they arrived at the grade.

[toro]

I once asked CGC,,,why don't you put the grading notes on some sort of storage unit and just charge us extra if we want the notes. Say you send in an order and for an extra $3, $5 or even $10 they will give you access to the notes. If you submitted 100 books, wouldn't you gladly pay $10 extra so you can read those notes? I would. This way they aren't being called numerous times a day and being asked what the grade of a particular book is. Also if you are a buyer and want to check out someone's book on ebay, you should be charged a fee. If I was buying an FF #1 I'd gladly pay that too. Maybe in time (haha) the money they could make on this could bring down the slabbing fee costs.

 

Just a thought.

[kc120us]

I once asked CGC,,,why don't you put the grading notes on some sort of storage unit and just charge us extra if we want the notes. Say you send in an order and for an extra $3, $5 or even $10 they will give you access to the notes. If you submitted 100 books, wouldn't you gladly pay $10 extra so you can read those notes? I would. This way they aren't being called numerous times a day and being asked what the grade of a particular book is. Also if you are a buyer and want to check out someone's book on ebay, you should be charged a fee. If I was buying an FF #1 I'd gladly pay that too. Maybe in time (haha) the money they could make on this could bring down the slabbing fee costs.

 

Just a thought.

 

If that's what it takes to get it done. I think being able to read the grader's notes and perhaps their opinions would settle some of the debate going on about their grades. How many times has it been posted on these boards where someone posts a scan of a slabbed book and people say..."that's no 9.4 maybe a 9.0 at best" or words to that effect. Being able to read all the defects the graders found and their opinions as to why they felt it deserved the grade, it could go long way to answering these questions. would you agree?

[toro]

If that's what it takes to get it done. I think being able to read the grader's notes and perhaps their opinions would settle some of the debate going on about their grades. How many times has it been posted on these boards where someone posts a scan of a slabbed book and people say..."that's no 9.4 maybe a 9.0 at best" or words to that effect. Being able to read all the defects the graders found and their opinions as to why they felt it deserved the grade, it could go long way to answering these questions. would you agree?

I think it would a big help to them from a PR standpoint and from a time point. Heck if they charged a 25cent fee to inquire about books that were not your own, they would probably have made a killing on 90% of Heritage books up for auction.

[kc120us]

If that's what it takes to get it done. I think being able to read the grader's notes and perhaps their opinions would settle some of the debate going on about their grades. How many times has it been posted on these boards where someone posts a scan of a slabbed book and people say..."that's no 9.4 maybe a 9.0 at best" or words to that effect. Being able to read all the defects the graders found and their opinions as to why they felt it deserved the grade, it could go long way to answering these questions. would you agree?

I think it would a big help to them from a PR standpoint and from a time point. Heck if they charged a 25cent fee to inquire about books that were not your own, they would probably have made a killing on 90% of Heritage books up for auction.

 

Yes, especially if you looking to buy a big ticket item. If you're about to fork over $20K or 30K for a book, wouldn't it be nice to read everything the graders discovered in their inspection of the book and not just the grade and page quality.