How much should interior defects count towards grade?

Illiterati-migration · June 29, 2003

I've already received one PM telling me about a submitted book (by the PMer who chooses to remain nameless....... for now... damn coward) with a torn AND taped interior page that came back BLUE label 9.4 with NO mention of the missing pages on the label. . What do you make of that?

I don't think anything can be made of it until the person steps up with the book in question.

lol I knew someone would say that, and that's fine. He won't... especially after what I just posted.

I LOVE Silver Age DCs (as well as bronze and 80's... but mostly 80's... heh.), but that's largely irrelevant here. The point is, they are not providing the service they advertise. You want to keep paying for a shoddy product, you go right ahead. You're worried about restoration and all that rot, but you're not concerned that you're essentially buying books sight unseen (in terms of the interior)? It doesn't make sense. Have you considered the fact that MOST of these books that people are spending THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars on wouldn't be WORTH that much if they didn't have the CGC label on them? How much less would you be spending on various books if CGC had never existed? You could still buy >gasp< a NM book at a NM price! Imagine!

COI · June 29, 2003

You're worried about restoration and all that rot, but you're not concerned that you're essentially buying books sight unseen (in terms of the interior)? It doesn't make sense.

So if I want to buy some high grade, early Marvels, what am I supposed to do? You hardley ever see early books in NM- or higher, because they're all slabbed. And if you do, you still have to pay a multiple of guide for a raw something that may be overgraded, or restored. So what's to be done? Not collect at all? At least when I buy a CGC graded book, my odds of getting my money back should I need to re-sell, are good. My collecting preference dosen't allow for many choices in this matter, and if I were to look at it the way you do, I'd probably have to leave the hobby.

fantastic_four · June 30, 2003

Actually, now that I think about it, there's no way in hell that you or anyone else is going to either acknowledge the problem or speak out about it... why kill the golden goose? And yes, FF, I realize that you're not a dealer and that you collect simply for astoundingly altruistic purposes... so why can't you just buy any ol' plastic case to put your comics in? You're being presented with evidence that CGC is not doing their job, why should you pay their multiples?

It's HAMMER TIME!!!! You were signing the earlier messages with Joe's name...did you leave Hammer's sig out by accident this time?

awe4one · June 30, 2003

So if I want to buy some high grade, early Marvels, what am I supposed to do? You hardley ever see early books in NM- or higher, because they're all slabbed. And if you do, you still have to pay a multiple of guide for a raw something that may be overgraded, or restored. So what's to be done? Not collect at all? At least when I buy a CGC graded book, my odds of getting my money back should I need to re-sell, are good. My collecting preference dosen't allow for many choices in this matter, and if I were to look at it the way you do, I'd probably have to leave the hobby.

Any long time collectors find this comment odd?

And if there's any question on what negative effect the monopoly that is CGC has done to this hobby needs look no further than the above statement......

Jim

Illiterati-migration · June 30, 2003

So if I want to buy some high grade, early Marvels, what am I supposed to do? You hardley ever see early books in NM- or higher, because they're all slabbed. And if you do, you still have to pay a multiple of guide for a raw something that may be overgraded, or restored. So what's to be done? Not collect at all? At least when I buy a CGC graded book, my odds of getting my money back should I need to re-sell, are good. My collecting preference dosen't allow for many choices in this matter, and if I were to look at it the way you do, I'd probably have to leave the hobby.

Any long time collectors find this comment odd?

And if there's any question on what negative effect the monopoly that is CGC has done to this hobby needs look no further than the above statement......

Jim

My thoughts exactly.

murph0 · June 30, 2003

Any long time collectors find this comment odd?

No, it's not like raw copies of NM Silver Age books are popping up left and right. They weren't exactly easy to find before CGC either.. well, I guess I should qualify THAT with.. "true" NM's, not the [!@#%^&^] that was eBay advertised as NM.

If you're a high grade collector and looking for Silver Age, your only other shot is Comic-Keys or a national dealer (most of which still overgrade) and they charge CGC prices anyways.

Brian

LordRahl · June 30, 2003

And if there's any question on what negative effect the monopoly that is CGC has done to this hobby needs look no further than the above statement......

That's funny. As far as I can see CGC provides a 3rd party grading opinion on comic books. CGC DOES NOT set market conditions and or prices. We the collectors do that. We choose to use CGC to grade our books. We decide to pay multiples for CGC high grade books. It cracks me up when people lay the blame for the current high grade market at the feet of CGC. As if CGC OWNS all the high grade books in the world and is setting these prices. I know it's easy to just bash the big bad corporate monster but give me a break. If you really hate CGC so much, DON"T use their service and DON'T buy slabbed books. Or does a CGC representative come to your house and hold a gun to your head forcing you to buy only slabbed books?

awe4one · June 30, 2003

That's funny. As far as I can see CGC provides a 3rd party grading opinion on comic books. CGC DOES NOT set market conditions and or prices. We the collectors do that. We choose to use CGC to grade our books. We decide to pay multiples for CGC high grade books. It cracks me up when people lay the blame for the current high grade market at the feet of CGC. As if CGC OWNS all the high grade books in the world and is setting these prices. I know it's easy to just bash the big bad corporate monster but give me a break. If you really hate CGC so much, DON"T use their service and DON'T buy slabbed books. Or does a CGC representative come to your house and hold a gun to your head forcing you to buy only slabbed books?

Hey I'm not the one who thinks I'm a slave to CGC if I want to buy high grade books. There are (were?) other options available such as a professional restoration check. You all are made CGC what they are by simply going with the flow. You could have bought high grade beforehand, gotten a restoration check, and been happy. Now if it doesn't have the CGC seal of approval, it's somehow inferior.

Jim

awe4one · June 30, 2003

No, it's not like raw copies of NM Silver Age books are popping up left and right. They weren't exactly easy to find before CGC either.. well, I guess I should qualify THAT with.. "true" NM's, not the [!@#%^&^] that was eBay advertised as NM.

You're showing your age Brian. High grade copies were available long before eBay even sold beanie babies. Most collectors and those that pay thousands should damn better know how to grade. CGC didn't teach us....

The convienence angle doesn't justify the high prices......

Jim

LordRahl · June 30, 2003

That's funny. As far as I can see CGC provides a 3rd party grading opinion on comic books. CGC DOES NOT set market conditions and or prices. We the collectors do that. We choose to use CGC to grade our books. We decide to pay multiples for CGC high grade books. It cracks me up when people lay the blame for the current high grade market at the feet of CGC. As if CGC OWNS all the high grade books in the world and is setting these prices. I know it's easy to just bash the big bad corporate monster but give me a break. If you really hate CGC so much, DON"T use their service and DON'T buy slabbed books. Or does a CGC representative come to your house and hold a gun to your head forcing you to buy only slabbed books?

Hey I'm not the one who thinks I'm a slave to CGC if I want to buy high grade books. There are (were?) other options available such as a professional restoration check. You all are made CGC what they are by simply going with the flow. You could have bought high grade beforehand, gotten a restoration check, and been happy. Now if it doesn't have the CGC seal of approval, it's somehow inferior.

Jim

I never once said that if it doesn't have the CGC seal of approval it is inferior. I'm simply stating that you're misplacing the blame for the current market at the feet of CGC. The market is controlled by the people buying the product NOT cgc. CGC offers a service, we choose whether we use that service. A lot of people have problems with CGC, some of them are actually valid. But simply villifying CGC because they are the only grading company out there is ludicrious.

awe4one · June 30, 2003

I never once said that if it doesn't have the CGC seal of approval it is inferior.

Maybe you haven't but others have implied it....

I'm simply stating that you're misplacing the blame for the current market at the feet of CGC. The market is controlled by the people buying the product NOT cgc. CGC offers a service, we choose whether we use that service. A lot of people have problems with CGC, some of them are actually valid. But simply villifying CGC because they are the only grading company out there is ludicrious.

True, we made this beast but we made it with the belief that what CGC offered was what was provided. It's become clearer and clearer that the service they provide is not foolproof and the options available to the buyer are essentially nil when a problem is discovered.

So how are we better than before CGC? Overpriced comics, doubts surfacing on the actual grading and collectors hesitant to break the slab, a belief that without a slab something is wrong, etc....

Seems that collectors have taken the easy road, aren't confident enough in their own abilities to grade, and don't want to hear the bad when their option for grading has been delegated.

Jim

murph0 · June 30, 2003

You're showing your age Brian. High grade copies were available long before eBay even sold beanie babies. Most collectors and those that pay thousands should damn better know how to grade. CGC didn't teach us....

The convienence angle doesn't justify the high prices......

Jim

Not really, I was buying in early 90's too.. and it simply isn't as easy as you claim it to be. Also, considering the fact that most of what people bought back then are today's VF's. I don't know if you're either sitting on a treasure trove of high grade books from the 60's or you're just saying that in an attempt to stand by your point. No amount of faxing, phone calling, and writing.. netted me more than 25-30 "NM" books in the course of a couple years.

It's fun to attempt to write people off, but in the end it'll come back to bite you in the [!@#%^&^].

Brian

murph0 · June 30, 2003

There are (were?) other options available such as a professional restoration check.

Great, instead of paying 30 dollars to have my comic graded independantly AND have a restoration check. I can send in my book to a restoration expert and have it JUST checked for restoration for somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-125 dollars!!! What was I thinking..

Brian

Illiterati-migration · June 30, 2003

And if there's any question on what negative effect the monopoly that is CGC has done to this hobby needs look no further than the above statement......

That's funny. As far as I can see CGC provides a 3rd party grading opinion on comic books. CGC DOES NOT set market conditions and or prices. We the collectors do that. We choose to use CGC to grade our books. We decide to pay multiples for CGC high grade books. It cracks me up when people lay the blame for the current high grade market at the feet of CGC. As if CGC OWNS all the high grade books in the world and is setting these prices. I know it's easy to just bash the big bad corporate monster but give me a break. If you really hate CGC so much, DON"T use their service and DON'T buy slabbed books. Or does a CGC representative come to your house and hold a gun to your head forcing you to buy only slabbed books?

The whole point here is that the they ARE creating a supposedly "high grade" market by letting books with missing, taped, stained interiors slide by either not looking at them (which they claim to) or just sheer ignorance. There are no doubt a LOT of "high grade" books out there that are NOT actually the high grade advertised on their CGC label. I'm not surprised that none of the big-dollar spenders are chiming in on this issue... I imagine they're feeling pretty stupid right now having possibly purchased books advertised as "NM" that are possibly actually very, very Poor in reality.

Consider the "grading standards" for Gold and Silver Age books... why is it that the grading is so much more lenient on those than it is Moderns? We want to believe it's because they're so old and it's so hard to preserve them and nobody took care of them and blah blah blah... So? Isn't Mint still MINT? Isn't a book in Very Fine condition STILL Very Fine? So how is it that (for example) that Action Comics #1 which appears to have been rolled in dirt and has an enormous piece of cover missing gets a 2.5 Blue label? What if that was a copy of Origin #1? It would have gotten something a **little** further down the scale. The discrepancy in grading standards between the ages of books is further proof that they are trying to sell a label and thus create a high grade market. Would these GA and SA books still receive their high dollar bids if they were actually graded accurately instead of having the "CGC Sliding Scale" applied?

awe4one · June 30, 2003

Great, instead of paying 30 dollars to have my comic graded independantly AND have a restoration check. I can send in my book to a restoration expert and have it JUST checked for restoration for somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-125 dollars!!! What was I thinking..

Well let's see.....pay 5/6 multiples of guide for a CGC early Silver Age NM.......pay 2/3 times guide for true non-CGC NM and another $100 or so for the restoration check?

I'll take the non-CGC everyday......unless of course you're the sort that likes to waste money.

Jim

awe4one · June 30, 2003

Not really, I was buying in early 90's too.. and it simply isn't as easy as you claim it to be.

Sure it was if you're willing to go search for it.

Also, considering the fact that most of what people bought back then are today's VF's.

According to whom? When and why did CGC become the standard.....

No amount of faxing, phone calling, and writing.. netted me more than 25-30 "NM" books in the course of a couple years.

You added everything other than actually going to, in person, to buy comics. Is the convienence of CGC graded comics sight unseen that vaulable to you to pay additional multiples of guide? I'm asking seriously here Brian....

It's fun to attempt to write people off, but in the end it'll come back to bite you in the [!@#%^&^].

I'm not trying to write you off Murph. I actually value your opinion. I just don't understand your reasoning at times.....

Jim

fantastic_four · June 30, 2003

Well let's see.....pay 5/6 multiples of guide for a CGC early Silver Age NM.......pay 2/3 times guide for true non-CGC NM and another $100 or so for the restoration check?

I'll take the non-CGC everyday......unless of course you're the sort that likes to waste money.

Where are you buying these unrestored NM raw Silver and Gold comics? I'd happily forgo the slabbing if I could find such a source...but what I find instead is mostly E-Bay sellers who can't grade at all and dealers who overgrade by a notch or two and who can't detect restoration. Many dealers have a 7 to 14 day return policy, which isn't enough time to send off for a restoration check to anybody.

Low supply of true NM early Silver is what is causing the multiples, not CGC alone. If you'll share with us your viable alternatives for the higher cost, hard-to-find comics, I will absolutely become a converted CGC detractor. In the absence of your sources, I'm left with a big waste of time in fishing for actual high-grade comics in a sea of overgrades, with the occasional restoration shark biting my arse and eating my money from time to time. I'm willing to even put up with a 50% success rate on raw books; that'd be a lot better than the 20% to 30% rate I get on late Silver and the 10% or less success rate I've had so far on early Silver.

Illiterati-migration · June 30, 2003

Low supply of true NM early Silver is what is causing the multiples, not CGC alone. If you'll share with us your viable alternatives for the higher cost, hard-to-find comics, I will absolutely become a converted CGC detractor. In the absence of your sources, I'm left with a big waste of time in fishing for actual high-grade comics in a sea of overgrades, with the occasional restoration shark biting my arse and eating my money from time to time. I'm willing to even put up with a 50% success rate on raw books; that'd be a lot better than the 20% to 30% rate I get on late Silver and the 10% or less success rate I've had so far on early Silver.

How do you know the book is restored unless you get it CGCed? If a tree falls in the forest.......

murph0 · June 30, 2003

Ok... so instead of buying off eBay.. every time I need to pick up another issue of ASM I should fly/drive/walk to Chicago? And if I can't find anything there fly/drive/walk to Boston? I live in freakin Iowa, where the hell am I gonna get S.A. comics here?? The only mode of purchasing high quality stuff for me is to write, fax, or call. I worked my [!@#%^&^] off in the early 90's trying to pick up stuff cause it was dirt cheap.. and most of the stuff I bought even then was a "NM" wrapped in a VF's body..the exception being when I was able to go to National Comic Cons and NOT have to buy sight unseen.

Anyways, I received the perfect item in the mail today to support my argument.. I will scan it when I get the chance and post it.

Brian

Illiterati-migration · June 30, 2003

Ok... so instead of buying off eBay.. every time I need to pick up another issue of ASM I should fly/drive/walk to Chicago? And if I can't find anything there fly/drive/walk to Boston? I live in freakin Iowa, where the hell am I gonna get S.A. comics here?? The only mode of purchasing high quality stuff for me is to write, fax, or call. I worked my [!@#%^&^] off in the early 90's trying to pick up stuff cause it was dirt cheap.. and most of the stuff I bought even then was a "NM" wrapped in a VF's body..the exception being when I was able to go to National Comic Cons and NOT have to buy sight unseen.
Anyways, I received the perfect item in the mail today to support my argument.. I will scan it when I get the chance and post it.

Brian

Well, I suppose it IS easier to get a book encased in plastic with a number on it and just ASSUME the number is accurate than it is to actually do the work yourself.

(See, the problem here is that you STILL don't know anything about how CGC grades, do you? Are you sure your "NM" CGC-ed books are NM?)

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How much should interior defects count towards grade?

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